What I am more concerned with now is the fact that we can argue details on both sides all we wish, but none of us have inside information on what went on, behind the scenes. The whole thing was a flash in the much larger geopolitical and strategic confrontation between the U.S. and Russia. Did the Russians bait the Georgians? Did the U.S. simply put the Georgians up to attack Ossetia? We really cant know for sure and it may take years for the truth to come out if it ever does.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1010/42/370386.htm

I generally agree with what you have written. The debate about what kind of a person or leader Saakashvili is, is entirely different than whether or not Georgia has a right to its own territory. Just as Kosovo is a part of Serbia whether or not Serbia’s leaders happen to be jerks, or somebody’s puppet, etc. I think that a similar case applies to South Ossetia.

I agree with you with respect to your description of the role of neocon machinations; at the same time it ought to be recognized that people do have free will and not everything can be attributed to money spent or plots successfully carried through. And also, focussing on neocons may cause us to lose sight of the fact that they are not the only ones attempted to manipulate situations for their own purposes – Russia is certainly doing so as well. Speaking of Ukraine, unfortunately the Russian Orthodox Church has historically and today proven to be no less tainted by nationalism than its local schismatic Ukrainian Orthodox rival, as the two fight over control in Ukraine. Which is quite sad, because the real enemy ought to be aggressive Western secularism/materialism (in this, I find the Catholic-Orthodox rivalry also tragic) and to a lesser extent Islam (which is more of a threat to the secularized West than to the Orthodox countries, with the obvious exception of Kosovo which the Serbs would have easily handled on their own if not for Western interference).

I just find it upsetting that 2 Orthodox nations are at war with each other, at a point in history where this should have been made obsolete, especially where same believing Orthodox Christians are concerned. At least us Serbians are at war with an entirely alien, backward, primitively tribal Islamic group of people that do not operate by any consistent norms or laws of civillisation. Again, I strongly emphasise (and am in particular agreement with Allen Wilson on this point) that US machinations are making the existing problems get entirely out of hand, and when one acknowledges that fact then it becomes quite difficult to blame Russia for much in all this.

Where Russia and Ukraina are concerned, the implications are more or less the same. Inherent local rivalries are exploited by machiavellian neocon warmongers from the west and made 100 times worse by their schemes, which if weren’t effected, might actually lead to some sort of lasting peace between both sides, a completely appropriate settelement for 2 Orthodox nations.

I think that when Eduard Kokoity said what he said in 2005, he really meant that there could not be much negotiation with a regime which was effectively a puppet of the US-led NATO, that did not give much regard to the interests of the Ossetians (or international law for that matter) whatsoever. Again, if that US-sponsored ‘rose revolution’ (not made out of any real love or affinity towards the wellbeing of the Georgian nation either) never took place, then relations between Georgia and Ossetia might now have been substantially improved. Is it unreasonable to assume so?

Andrei, I might agree with you (although the history is indeed complex and requires thorough investigation), that Georgia had a right to take its territory back however unreasonable given the circumstances, but I am adamant that this right or privelege should not have in any way been granted to Mihail Saakashvilli to execute, a man so obviously motivated by self interest rather than the organic interests of his nation.

Although noone, including me, disputes that the all-out assault initiated form the Georgian side, there is evidence of provocations from the Russian/Ossetian side preceding Georgia’s attack – increasing mortar fire from S. Ossetia into Georgia, overflights of Georgian territory by Russian planes, etc. The evidence suggests that Saak was baited and foolishly went for the bait. Nobody disputes the fact that civilian areas in Gori and and elsewhere were hit by Russian bombs or looted by Ossetian irregulars. This does not mean all of Georgia is in ruins, but neither is all of South Ossetia in ruins as the Russian media initially claimed.

As for Georgia blocking peace offers – Georgia proposed for years, full autonomy for South Ossetia and offered to invest heavily in it.. It was South Ossetia, confidant of Russia’s backing, that refused to compromise. Again, reminiscent of Kosovo’s stance towards negotiating with Serbia.

From the Russian News and Information Agency Novosti website:

“On January 2005 Mikheil Saakashvili announced peace initiatives with regard to South Ossetia at a PACE meeting in Strasbourg. South Ossetia was offered broad autonomy as part of the single Georgian state. President George W. Bush in a telephone conversation on February 15 backed Saakashvili’s initiatives. South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity, commenting on Saakashvili’s initiatives, said that “South Ossetia has long been an independent republic” and there could be no question of creating a common state with Georgia.”

Which is just like the KLA government’s attitude towards proposals from Serbia.

No one dispute’s it was the Georgians attacked first with an aerial bombardment of the capital of South Ossetia that’s fact not Kremlins version of the story.

Georgian claims have already been debunked like market bombing in Gori or that Gori is in ruins.

Despite agreements Georgia has repeatedly tried to retake the area by force.

Nearby Georgian villages are used as cover for Georgian forces to fire on Russian peacekeepers and Ossetian border guards.

All attempts for a peaceful settlement between the regions and Georgia have been blocked by Georgia because they know they can retake the regions and dispel the local populations of the area hostile to Georgia with US/UK backing and military hardware.

I was referring to that and other more distant ethnic cleansing campaigns against the Serbs (like WW II and the period between 1974-89).

I’m not sure about Ossetian vs. Georgian birth rates. With respect to the Orthodox Churches, Georgian priests were blessing Georgian troops on their way to attacking South Ossetia. This is sadly not new – Orthodox Churches have a history of unfortunate nationalism. Look at the conflict between Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox.

While it is undeniable that Georgia attacked (perhaps after having been provoked – this part is questionable) there is no evidence other than Russian claims (which should be taken with a grain of salt) that the Georgians targeted civilian areas and engaged in ethnic cleansing. On the other hand, South Ossetia’s president has already publically declared that the region’s Georgians will not be allowed to return. Sure, during the Georgian bombardment apartment buildings in South Ossetia were hit (as they were all over Georgia – is Russia also engaging in ethnic cleansing too, then?) but the reports from the ground show that government buildings in South Ossetia were worse hit than were residential areas, suggesting that those were the principle targets. If indeed the Georgians were truly trying to slaughter the South Ossetians then Russia or anybody would be justified in preventing this. But as in the case of Serbia in Kosovo, it looks like an attempt to gain political control.

Ossetia was within Georgia’s borders, negotiations were dragged out for years despite all sorts of concessions for autonomy etc. from the Georgian side, suggesting that the issues would never be resolved and that de facto there would be a non-Georgian territory of 70,000 S. Ossetions in the middle of Georgia within a few miles and striking distance of Georgia’s principle east-west highway. After several years of no progress, Georgia eventually took matters into its own hands with respect to this Georgian territory. To add to the Kosovo analogy, it would be as if Serbia, having come to the realization after years that Kosovo’s Albanians and their NATO backers would never negotiate in good faith or return Kosovo to Serbia despite Serb offers of total autonomy, decided to try to retake the territory by force. Suicidal, in both the case of Serbia hypothetically and Georgia in reality, but not unjustified.

I outlined the reasons for the self-contradiction of opposing Kosovo but supporting South Ossetia and appreciate a civil dialogue. Other than my use of the word “hypocrisy”, however, what has been “aggressive” in my tone?