Kosovo Negotiations Stalled
by Srdja Trifkovic
[Subscribe online to Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture. Click here for details].
An international conference that would jump-start the stalled talks on the future status of Kosovo could be held after elections in the Serbian province next month, European diplomats said Monday. The current round of negotiations, supervised by an international “Troika” of the EU, Russia and the United States, is scheduled to end on December 10. It has produced no results, and the EU’s Troika envoy, Wolfgang Ischinger, now says that a conference could be held once the November 17 elections are over. Diplomats said such a conference would mean that the government of Serbia and Kosovo’s Albanian officials could hold several days of negotiations, instead of talks lasting just a few hours—like the first such session that was held in New York on September 28, or the second round scheduled in Brussels next Sunday. On the whole, however, “there is less then meets the eye” to the negotiating process, Chronicles‘ Foreign Affairs Editor Srdja Trifkovic said in his interview aired on CKCU-FM 93.1 in Ottawa.
ST: There was absolutely nothing that the Albanian side was prepared to negotiate about. All true negotiations are give-and-take processes in which the final outcome is not necessarily preordained. The Albanian side has no incentive to give anything for as long as it believes that, after December 10, the US would encourage Pristina to procede with unilateral declaration of independence, which would be followed by the recognition from Washington regardless of the opposition of the Russians and regardless of the fact that therefore it cannot be effected through the UN Security Council.
CKCU-FM: What has Serbian side offered to Albanians in Kosovo-Metohija?
ST: The Serbian side offered what might be called “super-autonomy.” It would be based on the experiences of other democratic societies dealing with the aspirations of ethnic minorities within its territory. There would be additional ingredients, such as the possibility of Kosovo joining various international organizations, such as the World Bank and the IMF. Kosovo’s Albanians would enjoy full legislative and judicial autonomy. Effectively Serbia would only retain the nominal sovereignty over Kosovo and its external representation at the UN. It would be the model of the highest autonomy short of independence, the equivalent of which we do not have anywhere else in the world.
CKCU-FM: If the Albanians have no incentive to negotiate, what can be done to break the deadlock?
ST: It would be necessary for the United States to tell the Albanians that Washington is not on automatic pilot towards the unilateral recognition, that Washington accepts that negotiations ought to proceed without a preconceived outcome and that the U.S. will take stock of its position at the end of the negotiating process. Furthermore, that Washington is committed to the observance of international law, the UN Charter, the Final Act from Helsinki, and the need to maintain good relations both with the EU and Russia.
CKCU-FM: What are Serbia’s options?
ST: In order for Serbia’s often stated rejection of the amputation of 15 percent of its sovereign territory to be taken more seriously, Belgrade should take a number of concrete steps. One would be to indicate in clear-cut terms what would be the consequences of Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence, and of the illegal and illegitimate recognition of such an act by a foreign country. We still have some dichotomy coming from Belgrade as to what would follow such an act. On Prime Minister Kostunica’s side we see a hardening of the position, with escalating criticism directed both at NATO and at the United States. On the President Tadic’s and Foreign Minister Jeremic’s side, within the Democratic Party which is Kostunica’s coalition partner, we witness a great deal of ambiguity, however. On one hand they talk about the need to preserve Kosovo within Serbia—but on the other they claim that the process of “Euro-Atlantic integrations,” which means the aspiration of Serbia to join both the EU and the North Atlantic Alliance, would continue come what may. This dichotomy remains unresolved within Serbia’s leadership. By contrast, the Democratic Party of Serbia and Prime Minister Kostunica himself are rejecting “Euro-Atlantic” course. In my opinion it would be necessary for Serbia to state in clear-cut, unambiguous terms that in case of UDI the option of seeking NATO membership would be completely discarded by Belgrade. In addition, the EU would cease to be a strategic option for Serbia if the EU supports unilateral declaration of independence and if any of its key members (e.g., Britain and France) go ahead with recognition of that independence.
It would be desirable for Serbia to make gestures that underline the seriousness of her position, specifically by staging military manoeuvres along the administrative line of division between Kosovo and the rest of Serbia, and by preparing the ground for de facto blockade of Kosovo. It would entail non-recognition of any document issued by an illegally self-proclaimed government in Pristina, including personal ID papers, license plates, customs declarations, or anything that would enable Kosovo to use Serbia as a transit corridor towards the rest of Europe. Kosovo is not only landlocked but also reliant on Serbia for its connections with the rest of the world. The only rail line connecting Kosovo with the outside world, other than through Serbia, leads to Skopje; but going south, to Macedonia, would take Kosovo away from Europe and not towards it.
In addition it would be necessary to specify what concrete diplomatic steps would follow in the relationship between Serbia and any country that would extend recognition of illegally proclaimed independence. Would Belgrade contemplate a complete severance of diplomatic relations, or merely their scaling down to the level of charge d’affaires? And last but by no means least, what would it entail in terms of Serbia’s relations with Russia? The West is still counting on the ambivalence within the leadership in Belgrade to preclude the possibility of formalizing closer links between Serbia and Russia. At the moment the Russians are the only major power that is explicitly supporting Serbia’s position that demands observance of international law, the UN Charter and the Helsinki Final Act. The possibility of institutionalized linking of Belgrade with Moscow through some sort of formal pact of mutual support is real. It would institutionalize a relationship that already exists in fact, if not in law.
What we have witnessed over the past several years is the EU, and even more so the U.S., taking Serbia for granted. No matter what they do to Serbia, no mater how they treat its positions, they assumed that Belgrade would still come back and ask for more. It is necessary for the West and particularly for the U.S. to realize that the price of alienating ten million Serbs is much higher than the price of not delivering to the Albanians what it was not in the power for the US to promise in the first place. [ . . . ]
CKCU-FM: Will Kosovo proclaim independence on December 10?
ST: It will depend on the behaviour of the US. Short of Washington sending a strong signal to Pristina that there would be no automatic recognition, it will happen. What may yet sway Washington’s position is not so much what Belgrade does or does not do, because people like Nicolas Burns or Daniel Fried are beyond rational arguments, such as that there is no difference to the US whose flag is flying over Pristina. But, if there is a signal from Brussels, if there is a signal from the EU that the Europe will not be able to follow Washington’s lead on this one, that it would cause a serious splits within the EU, we could perhaps see some rethinking of the US position. We have a number of states that have openly expressed opposition to recognition, countries such as Spain, Slovakia, Rumainia, Greece, Cyprus and Malta, We are not witnessing such signals from Brussels at the moment because within the EU there is still some hope that a compromise solution may be patched together at an international conference. It may well include the offer of partition, which Serbia should reject. There is no reason why Serbia should give up the fundamental tenet of its present position: the inviolability of its borders and its sovereignty. The support of Russia, China, India and other countries depends on Serbia’s ability to stand firm on the principle of inviolability. Once you start negotiating about the secession of some segment of your sovereign territory, even it is one square mile, you have violated that principle.
[Subscribe online to Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture. Click here for details].
1 Comment by PcH on 9 October 2007:
When the last Albanian leaves Kosovo, I will fly to Serbia, cheer with the crowds enjoying their new freedom and kiss the first Serbian maiden I see.
2 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 10 October 2007:
Plentiful manipulations
As a matter of routine, I read IHT, NYT, WSJ, Le Figaro, Frankfurter Algemeine, Izvestiya, Pravda, O Globo, El Pais, etc. I added Al Jazzera just recently. I found some very unnatural events within the Serbian press recently.
It is no coincidence that some slight Serbian advantage (ever since the Albanians manage to demonstrate their bloodthirsty attitude towards non-compliant Albanians, Serbs, Eastern Orthodox churches, white slavery (people trafficking), drug trafficking, etc. Just as the world was beginning to see what a monstrous state Kosovo was promising to be (there were strong signs that Spain, Romania and Slovakia) would vote against the Kosovo enforced independence. All of that was well and fine (unethical, bloodthirsty and true to the nature of Islamic expansionism), but it just wasn’t enough.
The slight Serbian advantage melted away over the last week very quickly. This meltdown was rather fast and somewhat uncharacteristic for the nature of Serbia as a nation. These two event were particularly at odds with Serbian values and simplest standards of democracy:
a) City of Novi Sad (3 days ago), a powerless, symbolic, weak, poorly organized group of Serbian skinheads (NeoNazis) organizes a gathering and on their march to the city hall they get attacked (rocks, stones, insults), by “peaceful, democratic, Serbians” – in all likelihood cleverly planted NGO members from any of the many agencies working to destabilize Serbia for the last 10+ years. In the end we get the picture where Serbian police is brutally beating a group of kids without hair. Not entirely dissimilar from the days when Milosevic’s thugs were beating on the Otpor protesters. Democracy 0, Well-organized pro-Kosovo forces: 1
b) Two days ago within the Southern Serbian region of Sandzak (just North of Kosovo), during the inner power struggle among two Islamic leaders of Serbian Muslims, the police enters one of the mosques and beats up the whole lot. Completely out of character with Serbian applied democracy, however very much in the interests of the voices against Serbia’s interest in the future talks about amputation of Kosovo: Democracy 0, Well-organized pro-Kosovo forces 2
Demonizing of Serbia had been going on for quite some time and now it becomes rooted in fact (through the in-vitro, artificial insemination). As Dr. T. observes “There would be additional ingredients, such as the possibility of Kosovo joining various international organizations, such as the World Bank and the IMF. Kosovo’s Albanians would enjoy full legislative and judicial autonomy. Effectively Serbia would only retain the nominal sovereignty over Kosovo and its external representation at the UN. It would be the model of the highest autonomy short of independence, the equivalent of which we do not have anywhere else in the world.” – If that is not enough, I don’t know what is.
Rejecting autonomy of this magnitude leads me to believe that Kosovars Albanians are represented by some other forces which will profit from the continued unrest in this part of Serbia. I was always in favor of “peace-keeping maneuvers consisting of multinational forces of Serbia, Russia, Romania, Greece, Macedonia, Republika Srpska, possibly Ukraine or Belorussia – the more the merrier.
3 Comment by Marc on 10 October 2007:
Could someone please explain to me why I shouldn’t support independence for Kosovo if that is what the overwhelming majority there want?
I don’t have strong feelings on this issue one way or the other, and between the two groups I would probably sympathize more with the Serbs, as I feel they got a raw deal in the 90’s and I have more in common culturally with Christians than Muslims. But I don’t see why I should support keeping Kosovo in Serbia if the majority of Kosovars don’t want to remain in Serbia.
I don’t know the history of the region, and I would welcome any enlightenment in this area. I’ve heard that Kosovo is the cultural and historic heart of Serbia. But is this really an argument for keeping it part of Serbia? If Kosovo is so important to Serbs, why did the Serbs let the Albanians outbreed them in that province to such a huge degree?
I’m not trying to be confrontational, I really don’t know much about the issue. I’m just asking for the pro-Serbian viewpoint as someone with little knowledge on the matter.
4 Comment by P. Stewart on 10 October 2007:
Marc – As my friends from Kosovo, now living in the US, tell it, the Kosovar Albanians are not welcome in Albania, and have migrated into, and violently uprooted, Serbs over several generations. As children, these friends, now in their late 50’s, remember Serbian farms being burned, Serbs being hanged from their own trees, old people being terrorized. Albanian behaviors like this caused the younger generations to flee.
“Independence” will reward these behaviors. I can guarantee that if this works for the Albanians in Kosovo, they will continue this form of land grab beyond Kosovo. Why does the sovereignty of a nation’s borders depend upon the ethnicity and religion of the groups living within those borders? If it does, what does that say about the sovereignty of any nation’s borders?
5 Comment by Marc on 10 October 2007:
Stewart,
I’m sorry that the Serbians in Kosovo went through that, but if Kosovo was so important to Serbs, then Serbs in Kosovo should have fought harder and bred more.
As for national sovereignty, it doesn’t depend on ethnicity or religion, but on a people’s willingness to be a part of the nation. If people wish to secede from a nation, they should be allowed to do so, just as we once seceeded from the British crown.
Again, I have no strong feelings on the issue. But as I see it, Kosovo should be permitted to secede, and the province’s fate should serve as a warning to other nations not to let foreign, expanionist groups into your country to propagate like rabbits.
6 Comment by Spectacles on 10 October 2007:
Actually Marc the Serbian people did fight to root out the terrorist element in Kosovo called the KLA in order to restore order in the region. Then the Illegal US/NATO Bombing Campaign blew the Bejesus out of them causing more Civilian Death on all sides than anything else in the KLA/Counter Terrorist Conflict.
The way I see it if the Kosovo Albanians attempt Unilateral Independence it will pave the way for Republika Srpska to do the same and/or spark another War in the Balkans.
That would be another opportunity for Serbia to regain control of the region because it will nullify all documentation that prevents them from going in and doing so.
7 Comment by TRIFKOVIC on 10 October 2007:
DEMOGRAPHY is a major problem, though — the one Serbia shares with all other Christian Europeans, albeit in a more pronounced form. Belgrade has expanded to 2m+ while entire regions, not just villages, are being depopulated.
8 Comment by Michael Kenny on 10 October 2007:
Point 1 PcH: might it not be simpler to wait until all the Frenchmen leave France as well and then kill two birds with the one stone?
Point 3 Marc: The reason why you should not support independence for Kosovo is that you don’t come from Serbia and what happens in Serbia is a matter for the people of Serbia and nobody else. In other words, it’s none of your damn business! That’s why!
9 Comment by NS on 10 October 2007:
Mr. Iliya Pavlovich,
How do you explain the fact that the group of neonazis involved in confrontation gathered at the establishment owned and operated by Serbian Army?
Thank you.
10 Pingback by Macedonia » Blog Archives » Kosovo Negotiations Stalled on 10 October 2007:
[...] Kosovo Negotiations Stalled Kosovo with the outside world, other than through Serbia, leads to Skopje; but going south, to Macedonia [...]
11 Comment by Boba on 10 October 2007:
9NS
“How do you explain the fact that the group of neonazis involved in confrontation gathered at the establishment owned and operated by Serbian Army?”
NS – Who did you get this information from? CIA, SIS, MI 5-6, Albright, ICG, CNN, BBC….?
12 Comment by NS on 10 October 2007:
Dear Boba,
It was reported in Serbian media, and is clearly identifiable from the photos taken during squirmish and police action.
13 Comment by ECHS1967 on 10 October 2007:
Michael Kenny writes:
“Point 3 Marc: The reason why you should not support independence for Kosovo is that you don’t come from Serbia and what happens in Serbia is a matter for the people of Serbia and nobody else. In other words, it’s none of your damn business! That’s why!”
Well, on the other hand, Mr. Kenny, I think it’s reasonable to expect that if Kosovo is granted independence by some sort of UN/NATO fiat that the emerging Greater Albania would soon become just about everybody’s damn business …
14 Comment by Joel Parshall on 10 October 2007:
Marc, the story is complicated enough that simply letting the matter be determined by a majority in the province today is inadequate — not that that principle is followed in most places, anyway, when the matter of secession arises. The Serbs view Kosovo, historically, as in many ways the forge of their national identity. Their defeat at the Battle of Kosovo (1389) ushered in 500 years of Turkish rule. From that time on, the very ground of Kosovo symbolized the Serbs’ desire to live once more as an independent people. Kosovo is the historic seat of the Serbian Orthodox Church and home of some of its most revered monasteries and holiest relics.
Of course, if the Serbs in these latter days had simply chosen to leave Kosovo because they didn’t care, all of that history wouldn’t matter much in any context of contemporary international relations, and then your plebiscite might be a meritorious option. However, that is hardly the case. As late as 1940, Kosovo had a Serbian majority. The upheavals of World War II certainly contributed to demographic change in Kosovo, as elsewhere. But to be more specific, the continuing influx of Albanians reflected a deliberate strategy of Marshal Tito. He invited large numbers of them in to dilute Serbian influence in Yugoslavia. The Serbs of Kosovo, then, were victims of this longstanding demographic manipulation by Tito. Add to that the impact of Albanian violence against the Kosovo Serbs, to say nothing of NATO bombing, and you can see why the demographics have shifted so dramatically in well less than a century.
No one expects Kosovo to go back to its pre-World War II demographic composition. However, the history — ancient and modern — does make a difference. Holding a plebiscite, or conceding to the “general will” in Kosovo even without one, would seem the height of injustice precisely because the Serbs do care about this history and because many of them left Kosovo only under extreme duress. It is not as if Serbia is seeking to deny Kosovar Albanians the opportunity to run their own local affairs and, for that matter, to have essential autonomy within Kosovo.
Outside of the Russians, who are fellow Slavs, I am not sure how many of the outside parties trying to arrange Kosovo’s future care much about Serbia’s history — except that the US appears to care not at all. Some of the other parties may be pragmatic enough to know that what matters to Serbia and could motivate retaliatory actions by Serbia should hold at least some weight. They also have broader concerns, or at least they should, about the consequences of breaking off Kosovo from Serbia. Perhaps their reservations about encouraging secessions elsewhere in Europe and Asia, as well as their doubts about the wisdom of establishing a second independent Albanian nation in Europe, will prevail. I hope so.
15 Comment by Boyan K. on 10 October 2007:
#9 The building is OWNED by the army, but ‘operated by it’… hm, not by any means. The whole place is being rented by the private companies, as much as I know. Ie, the cafe where they gathered is a restaurant operated by civilians, not the army.
And, since you’re obviously so well-informed, why didn’t you help Chronicles’ readers grasp the situation a bit further, by transferring THE WHOLE information? The “Serbian nazis” were just some lame group of couple dozen youths, half of which wasn’t even Serbian, but consisted of their “comrades” from Slovakia. As far as I know, Polish and Slowenian contigent were restrained from entering Serbia by the police on the state border, while Slovaks somehow sneaked in. The first Serbian politician to condemn the whole “march” (some march, handful of Derek Vinyard-wannabes
) was the mayor of Novi Sad, and the local leader of the “ultranationalist” Serbian Radical Party.
So, try something more creative… like “commies”, or something.”Nazi” and “Serb” simply don’t go together, no matter how hard you try. Even the incident took place on the boulevard named after the victims of The Novi Sad Great Raid, a crime from the January 1942, when Hungarian fascists killed about 800 Jews and 300 Serbs of Novi Sad in a single day (the whole crime was a part of the raid in the wider Novi Sad’s area, where about 2600 Serbs and 1200 Jews – along with about two hundred members of other ethnic groups – were killed by Hungarian fascists, in less than a month).
16 Comment by TRIFKOVIC on 10 October 2007:
To JOEL, with thanks for a thoughtful comment. One disagreement: “No one expects Kosovo to go back to its pre-World War II demographic composition.” Well, talking of pre-WWII, how many Poles did we have in Danzig, Stettin, or Breslau (pardon me, Gdansk, Szczecyn & Wroclaw) before 1944/1945? OK, up to 1%. How many Czechs in Pilsen (Plzen), Germans in Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad, or for the Poles Krolewiec)? How many non-Muslims in what is today’s Pakistan? From 30% in 1947 to near nothing today… The process is distinctly unattractive yet inevitable once the geopolitical tectonic shift is under way. Kosovo’s demographics is a function of geopolitics and as dependent on who rules the world as the destiny of Alsace-Lorraine in 1919, or Northern Ireland three years later.
17 Comment by NS on 10 October 2007:
Dear Boyan K.
Without any desire to waste any more of the valuable space on this web site on the comments not directly related to the article, I wish to stress that I find it very unfortunate that the Serbian Army’s property was used as a meeting place for a neonazis, or however else you wish to call the extreme right wing group in contention. This was in response to Mr. Pavlovich’s theory that the incident was likely staged in order to tarnish Serbia’s image at the critical stage of Kosovo crisis resolution.
I am finding it very difficult to reconcile your own outrage over the WWII crimes you have described, with your almost lighthearted dismissal of the current proponents of the same vile ideology appearing near the very location where those crimes were perpetrated.
If they can emerge in Israel, why not in Serbia?
18 Comment by AZiguri on 10 October 2007:
Marc,
Generally speaking, what you say is right. What the other respondents say is just nonsensical. Only the Serbs use history, distorted history, of course, to solve today’s problems that they have created with their own hands. Let them suffer the consequences of their sins against the Albanians. In the former Yugoslavia, the Albanians comprised the third largest population after the Serbs and the Croats. Albanians will win.
Not only Kosova, but time is coming when Voivodina and Sandzak will secede. Life with indoctrinated Serbs is unbearable. They started four wars and they lost them all. Look, how smart they are. They declared war on all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia and now they are insulting and attacking the West.
They have been suppressing and exploiting the Albanians to the bone for about one hundred years. Enough is enough. The Serbs have been behaving towards the Albanians the same as the police in the mosque in Sandjak. The violence used by the police is not “completely out of character with the Serbian applied democracy”. On the contrary, that has been the rule in Kosova ever since Serbia invaded Kosova, the land of the Albanians long before the Serbs set foot on Balkan soil in the seventh century.
Long live Independent and Sovereign Kosova!
19 Comment by Joel Parshall on 10 October 2007:
# 16 Trifkovic. “One disagreement: “No one expects Kosovo to go back to its pre-World War II demographic composition.” Well, talking of pre-WWII, how many Poles did we have in Danzig, Stettin, or Breslau (pardon me, Gdansk, Szczecyn & Wroclaw) before 1944/1945? OK, up to 1%. How many Czechs in Pilsen (Plzen), Germans in Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad, or for the Poles Krolewiec)? How many non-Muslims in what is today’s Pakistan? From 30% in 1947 to near nothing today… The process is distinctly unattractive yet inevitable once the geopolitical tectonic shift is under way. Kosovo’s demographics is a function of geopolitics and as dependent on who rules the world as the destiny of Alsace-Lorraine in 1919, or Northern Ireland three years later.”
I won’t argue against your logic and analysis, but I just won’t place any bets.
20 Comment by AZiguri on 10 October 2007:
Marc,
What you say is on the whole right. What others say is nonsensical. Only the Serbs use history, distorted history, of course, to solve today’s problems that they have created with their own hands. Let them suffer the consequences of their sins against the Albanians. In the former Yugoslavia, the Albanians comprised the third largest population after the Serbs and the Croats. Albanians will win.
Not only Kosova, but time is coming when Voivodina and Sandzak will secede. Life with indoctrinated Serbs is unbearable. They started four wars and they lost them all. Look, how smart they are. They declared war on all the peoples of the former Yugoslavia and now they are insulting and attacking the West.
They have suppressed and exploited the Albanians to the bone for about one hundred years. The Serbs have been behaving towards the Albanians the same as the police in the mosque in Sandjak. The violence used by the police is not “completely out of character with the Serbian applied democracy”. On the contrary, that has been the rule in Kosova. History is not on the side of the Serbs. Serbia invaded Kosova, the land inhanited by the the Albanians long before the Serbs set foot on Balkan soil in the seventh century.
Kosova will soon become independent and sovereign.
21 Comment by Joel Parshall on 10 October 2007:
# 16 Trifkovic.
I might add that my German brother-in-law was a boy of 8 in Breslau, who fled with his family to Munich at the end of WWII. So I know of what you speak.
22 Comment by buda on 10 October 2007:
At some level I understand and agree with Serbian explanation as why they were the ‘victims’ of violence from Albanians and how their churches burned. For the sake of telling the whole truth, Serbs should be open-minded enough to acknowledge the scale of the conflict in 1999 which left 10,000 Albanians dead and 800,000 expelled from the country (by the way that is close to 40% of the country – now that is what I call ethnic cleansing) and the number of massive graves found in Serbia and Kosovo… I did not see any of that happen to Serbs, not even to a comparable scale…
23 Comment by Boba on 10 October 2007:
# 17 NS
Why weren’t you concerned about currently active UCK / KLA military garrisons in Kosovo-Metohija. NATO / US allowed the terrorist KLA, which under the terms of United Nations Resolution 1244 was to be disarmed after the end of the US led NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999, to keep its weapons. KLA today occupies former JNA military barracks in Kosovo-Metohija. KLA is officially banned but in reality it is very alive. In fact KFOR military convoys pass by the KLA garrisons full of Albanian “soldiers” every day. Monuments to terrorist KLA fighters have been erected all over Kosovo-Metohija. Terrorists and Islamists have been aided and abetted by the USA, some EU countries, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries. Together the have committed crime of colossal proportions against the Serbian population that each of us should be concerned with.
24 Comment by nikopiko on 10 October 2007:
Marc,
I believe Joel answered your questions quite well. There is one point I would like to add. Albanians are not a majority in Serbia. If put to a vote in the entire country for there to be a seccesion of Kosovo from the rest of Serbia then it would never pass.
The question should be at what point do you allow an ethnic or any other group who may comprimise a majority of a region to secede from a sovereign state. Is there a minimun population or land size? Can a majority district of french speakers in Canada hold a referedum for independence? Will the USA allow a town ,with a majority of Mexicans, to declare independence and join Mexico or should the entire USA be allowed to vote in that referendum?
Also, Serbs did fight for their land but they were not fighting only 2 million Albanians in ‘99. We had to fight against the hundreds of millions in NATO as well. Read a bit of history from the Tito years and you will learn that there was not much any Serb could do to curtail what the Croat Tito envisioned for Kosovo in the years after WW2.
25 Comment by Boyan K. on 11 October 2007:
NS,
there’s no need to label my previous comment as “lighthearted” towards such a patology. I was not only outraged, but genuinely disgusted by the news from Novi Sad. As the rest of us Serbs were. And my comment was clear enough on the whole issue. Thus my mentioning of the location where the WW2 crimes against Jews and Serbs in Novi Sad took place, just to point how blatantly moronic the whole idea of “being a nazi” in Serbia sounds. It’s like having a party on your grandmother’s grave.
And, yes, the world’s gone wrong, obviously, with such abominations as the nazi groups in Israel or Serbia. No matter how marginal or misguided or simply stupid those kids are, the very concept of A SINGLE nazi-sympathizing individual in these countries is simply insane. But, I’ve already pointed that THE HALF of those couple dozens weren’t even Serbian, but their “comrades” from abroad.
Plus, the whole gathering was condemned primarily by the strongest Serbia’s right-wing party, a month ago. So, yes, I do find it a bit difficult to support anyone’s desire to paint the swastika over Serbia.
And that’s exactly how allegations on “the Army connection” look like. So I just mentioned the fact (easily provable, send an e-mail to Serbia’s Defense Ministry) that the cafe where the nazis gahered is in a buliding OWNED by the Army, but not operated by it. For years and years back, it was used for the civilian purposes, so one doesn’t need any millitary approval to enter.
And yes, the whole incident is being used to tarnish Serbia, in such a disgraceful manner. Come on, “the scary Serbian army is backin’ the nazis, wink-wink, we all know what the SERBIAN ARMY is, remember Penny Marshall’s reports and the glorious president Clinton who carpet-bombed the bastards, now it’s time to finally kick ‘em off Kosovo…”. Such a classic Goebbelsian take on Serbs, the good ol’ BBC-style… Which reminded me to a great observation, heard from a (Israeli) friend a long ago: “I just fail do decide whether the BBC hates Serbs or Israelis more”. Then I’ve got it. Reading the recent news on “the group of Israeli nazis”, one could’ve hardly miss the subtle note that one member of the group “served in the Isreali army”.
26 Comment by Boyan K. on 11 October 2007:
PS
NS, I’d be happy to dismiss my comment on the anti-Serbian propaganda purpose of the whole nazi-incident, the very second you provide ANY sustainable evidence that the official West (both media and politics) did ANYTHING to stop the tide of very REAL neo-naziism in any of the ex-Yu countries, which has been going on and on for almost two decades. Of course, Im talkin’ about:
- Croatia, which made the official policy out of a sheer Holocaust denial, not to mention the complete re-Ustasefication of the country;
- Muslim portion of Bosnia, that revived the traits of their SS Hanjar Division back in the 1990-s, along with the Islamic fundamentalism, in their (US-supported) army;
-Albanianized “Kosova”, the same as in Bosnia, only the “Skanderbeg SS” instead of “Hanjar SS”, along with the creepy off-the-road-joints where a guest can “enjoy” the atmosphere of a Hitlerian design, along with the waiters dressed in nazi uniforms… and all that at the very sight of the “international community”, ie the dozens, if not hundreds, official organizatons stationed in Kosovo, by the UN, America, EU and NATO.
Not to mention the former Soviet countries (Ukraine, the Baltic states) where the rise of the most vulgar neo-naziism is being happily ignored (or even defended) by the very same Western elites, as long as it serves the anti-Russian purpose.
But, there you have all the fuss about some group of a bizzare neo-nazis in Serbia (half of which was imported from abroad) which showed up just in time to do the job of a good ol’ Serbia-trashing in the media a little bit. And the fat that the whole country (all the way from the remnants of Milosevic’s left, to the ultra-nationalist right) equally condemned such a nonsense, doesn’t mean to change the fact that the media has already reached the verdict).
That’s all. I agree we shouldn’t burden this topic with the arguments with little or no relation to Dr. Trifkovic’s article.
27 Comment by Boyan K. on 11 October 2007:
“And the fat that the whole country”
Of course, this should read: “And the FACT that the whole country…”. For all other typos, I apologize. I’ve written the comments in the great haste
28 Comment by Boyan K. on 11 October 2007:
“doesn’t mean to change the fact”
should read “doesn’t SEEM to change the fact”
I’m boring now, but this one’s pretty big. Changes the whole meaning of a sentence, if I left it without the correction
29 Pingback by Style » Comment on Kosovo Negotiations Stalled by Boyan K. on 11 October 2007:
[...] Peter A. Mello wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptSuch a classic Goebbelsian take on Serbs, the good ol’ BBC-style… Which reminded me to a great observation, heard from a (Israeli) friend a long ago: “I just fail do decide whether the BBC hates Serbs or Israelis more”. … [...]
30 Pingback by Conservative Heritage Times » Israel Lobby v. Muslims: The Middle Ground on 11 October 2007:
[...] it has worked against the American interest, but at the same time we should not underestimate the Muslim threat – especially here in the U.S. or [...]
31 Comment by P. Stewart on 11 October 2007:
Boyan – the Croatian Nazis are currently touring the US with their Thompson musical front man. Where’s the outrage here? Nowhere! He’s booked in Croatian cultural centers all across the country.
Buda – the UN itself has proven the lie to your figures. The “mass graves” that have been discovered contained dozens, not thousands, and many of them were killed with Albanian ordinance. The narco-human traffickers have even had to subdue their own people to promulgate this Albanian victimology.
Nikopiko – I completely agree with your statement. The Albanian separatists do, too, since they know their efforts to seize Kosovo would never succeed without US intervention. AZiguri assures us that the cancer will spread should the US-Albanian alliance succeed.
32 Comment by Marc on 11 October 2007:
Joel, thank you for your reasonable and thoughtful comments. I feel like I have a better understanding of where many Serbs are coming from. Not having any particular ties to the region, I was unaware of the history of demographic manipulation. and had just assumed that the Serbs had been honestly outbred by the Albanians, though there seems to be at least some of that too.
33 Comment by Alban Ziguri on 11 October 2007:
Marc,
As to the historical right of Serbia to Kosova, please read what follows:
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/26065.html
34 Comment by Alban Ziguri on 11 October 2007:
As to the steady incoming stream of settlers from Albania, the Yugoslav authorities did not know the numbers involved. The statistics below give the lie to the Serbs’ claims.
FROM THE HORSE’S MOUTH:
1. Growth in the Population of Yugoslavia, Republic of Serbia and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo
Population in thousands
Year Yug. Serbia Serbia w/o Kosovo SAP Kosovo
1921. 12,545 4,819 4,387 432
1931 14,534 5,726 5,174 552
1948 15,842 6,528 5,800 728
1953. 16,991 6,979 6,163 816
1961. 18,549 7,642 6,678 964
1971. 20,523 8,446 7,202 1,244
1981. 22,425 9,314 7,730 1,584
Average growth rate in %
1921-31. 1.46 1.71 1.66 2.43
1931-48 0.50 0.76 0.34 0.83
1948-53. 1.39 1.34 2.12 2.27
1953-61. 1.09 1.30 1.00 2.07
1961-71. 1.01 0.99 0.75 3.44
1971-81. 0.88 0.98 0.70 2.40
1948-81. 1.04 1.43 0.80 2.24
1921-81. 0.94 1.08 0.91 2.00
Source: Demographic statistics 1985, Belgrade 1988
3. Breakdown of Kosovo’s Population by Number of inhabitants
Nationality
1948. 1953. 1961. 1971. 1981.
Total 727,820 808,141 963,988 1,243,693 1,584,441
Albanians 498,242 524,559 646,805 916,168 1,226,736
Serbs 171,911 189,869 227,016 228,264 209,498
Montnegrins 28,050 31,343 37,588 31,555 27,028
Moslems 9,679 6,241 8,026 26,357 58,562
Romanies 11,230 11,904 3,202 14,593 34,126
Turks 1,315 34,583 25,784 12,244 12,513
Croats 5,290 6,203 7,251 8,264 8,717
Yugoslavs … … 5,206 920 2,676
Others 2,103 3,541 3,110 5,328 4,584
Structure in %
Total 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0
Albanians 68.5 64.9 67.2 73.7 77.4
Serbs 23.6 23.5 23.6 18.4 13.2
Montgrins 3.9 3.9 3.9 2.5 1.7
Moslems 1.3 0.8 0.8 2.1 3.7
Romanies 1.5 1.5 0.3 1.2 2.2
Turks 0.2 4.3 2.7 1.0 0.8
Croats 0.7 0.8 0.8 0.7 0.6
Yugoslavs … … 0.5 0.1 0.2
Others 0.3 0.3 0.2 0.3 0.2
Average annual growth rate in %
1948-53. 1953-61. 1961-71 1971-81.
Total 2.14 2.06 2.54 2.41
Albanians 1.02 2.60 3.44 2.89
Serbs 1.98 2.22 0.05 -0.85
Montgrins 2.21 2.26 -1.74 -1.54
Moslems -9.83 3.12 10.76 7.58
Romanies 0.62 -14.43 12.8 8.01
Turks 25.92 -3.64 -7.12 0.21
Croats 3.47 1.95 1.30 0.62
Yugoslavs … … -13.82 10.15
35 Comment by Alban Ziguri on 11 October 2007:
Since the statistics in post 34 are not clear enough due to technical issues of the electronic posting system, I would recommend the link below from which they were reproduced:
http://members.tripod.com/Balkania/resources/history/migrations/mk_3.html
36 Comment by Boyan K. on 12 October 2007:
@ P. Stewart
Yes, I’ve already heard of that Tomorrow-belongs-to-Thompson tour. Here’s the “poet’s” highlight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_i_Gradi%C5%A1ka_Stara
Check out Julia Gorin’s blog for more info (start with scrolling down to “Do’s and Don’ts for Entry into North America”).
37 Comment by Adriatik on 12 October 2007:
I feel so sad for the Serbian people and their head politicians.
They have learned their history backwards. I am not going to teach them the history of Dardanian and Illyrian land from a few thousands years old, compare to a few centuries old history of Slavic population moving to the Balkan area.
But I feel sad for them for thinking and living at least 100 years back. Living in the 21st century with many European countries being democratic governments we see a plague right in the meddle of Europe which is Serbian people and government.
I do not see the smallest elements of a democratic society in Serbia.
Where are this people going? I would like to know.
Two million Kosovar-Albanians do not even want to talk to this ethnicity: and that for one important reason, which is the 10000-kosovar people killed during the Serbian invasion in Kosova (including children and wives and old people of all ages).
Serbia will never dictate the will of 2 million people, even if we have two Russian countries in this planet. What don’t this Serbians do not understand?
38 Comment by Spectacles on 12 October 2007:
Again with the debunked 10,000 killed, stop it. Its been dis proven by the United Nations and the United States of America.
And my question still stands, tell me about the ‘Canon of Leke Dukagjiniis’ and how the KLA used it to bully your own people and kill them if they disobeyed, including both women and children.
And Tell me why Albanian witnesses to Ramush Haradinaj’s trial are so scared to testify? And why there are witnesses that are found conveniently murdered before they can testify?
Talk about living a few centuries in the past, thats the pot calling the kettle black. (pots and kettles are both black in case you are unfamiliar with the metaphor, no disrespect some people are not aware)
39 Comment by Iskander on 13 October 2007:
Spectacles:
Where did you find these “facts”? In some misguided amd misleading article of tabloid papers that try to prove whant cannot be proven?
Ramush Haradinaj is a great fighter and leader and all the charges against him will surely be disapproved.
What you say about him is indication of Serb mentality: The success of one is the envy of the other.
My advice to you is not to pass this trash on to others for you will certainly turn out to be either a liar or a dupe.
40 Comment by Spectacles on 13 October 2007:
Actually my good Iskander, the US Department of Defense and Foreign Affairs Report is as much a tabloid as Madeline Albright was a Cleaning Lady when the Albanian Deligation ran into her for the first time.
You are a very good politician sir, you are evading all of my questions expertly. However since I am an old dog I prefer the Socratic Method when it comes to learning and that entails a lot of questions. I also do not possess envy as one of my vices, I do however possess patience enough to ask my questions until they are answered.
Why are there people who end up dying under mysterious circumstances whose only connection to one another is that they are witnesses against Mr. Haradinaj? Whom does that benefit?
What is it about the Old Albanian Canon that scares the bejesus out of all of you? The Blood Oath of Revenge? Absolute Submission to the strongest clansman?
I will consider your advice, but as a good advice giver I am sure you don’t follow your own advice, which is a pity. It is far easier to point out another’s flaws then one’s own. Consider that my good Iskander.
41 Comment by Alban Ziguri on 13 October 2007:
I had the same questions as Spectacles but the other way round about Iskander’s post? Iskander does not sound like an Albanian name. In Albania or other Albanian inhabited regions in the Balkans, you can find people Skënder by name (Skënder is short for Alexander).
I, too have read that witnesses against Haradinaj fail to show up or change their minds. Why is it? There are two possibilities. They are either intimidated or are fake witnesses who change up their minds at the last moment because they afraid that truth will come out one day and they will have to answer for their false testimonies.
As to the people who end up dying under mysterious circumstances, I would ask Mr/Mrs Spectacles: Who are they and how many? Can he/she prove it with some official document which he should make sure is not forged?
42 Pingback by Greece » Blog Archives » Greece is on the "information highway"... on 14 October 2007:
[...] Kosovo Negotiations Stalled opposition to recognition, countries such as Spain, Slovakia, Rumainia, Greece, Cyprus and Malta, We Posted in Greece | Trackback | del.icio.us | Top Of Page The Godzilla of blog posts Then I tried to read really long documents about tourism in Greece, but the thing about being sick is that your brain is fever fried and the thing about 60 page pdfs about tourism in Greece is that they are boring so I didn’t really get … National Archaeological Museum Athens, Greece, Jul 22, 2007. The National Archaeological Museum is the home of some famous items, such as the Mask of Agamemnon, statue of… World Beaters Nate’s passing now? (Photo. Colin Brennan) The NBA went 3-1 yesterday in its World Tour preseason schedule: the Knicks smashed Maccabi Tel Aviv at MSG, the Rockets worked over Panathinaikos (Greece) in Houston, and the Grizzlies demo’d some… NYC/Greece Trip #2: Arrival in NYC Of course our flight out of Dallas was delayed. Should I ever expect for a flight to be on time ever again? Probably not. So I didn’t arrive at JFK until about midnight local time, followed by 30-40 minutes waiting for my bag, … Chocolate for dinner 10/10/2007. As of today, I have beaten Tetris 3 times. I’m awesome. Before I beat Tetris for the third time, I got to sleep in until 10 since we had a field trip to Farsa. We had to walk to the bus station, so we stopped at the really … 1st of Acropolis sculptures successfully transferred by crane to new museum Associated Press – October 14, 2007 9:43 AM ET ATHENS, Greece (AP) – A delicate move is taking place at the Acropolis. Officials there say the first — of what will be many — ancient… Hi, my name is Spyros and I am from Greece I am from Athens, Greece and I have been a web designer since 1999. I used to work freelance and for the last 3,5 years I have been part of a company called x2interactive. You can find out more about me on my personal website Spyros … Mykonos – I could get use to this – Mykonos, Greece Mykonos, Greece Good afternoon from a smoke packed Internet cafe (the Greeks love to smoke!), So we have finally after almost two weeks worked out how to live life like the Greeks. Thanks to my 4pm red bulls yesterday I couldn’t … 2.5 Tons of Rotten Belgium Meet Imported to Bulgaria Belgian meet gone bad has been distributed in Bulgaria, before the whole quantity is imported to Greece, the Bulgarian National Radio reported. Rhodos Town – Rhodes, Greece We’ve been a bit apprehensive about our stay in Greece – we’ve been told by several people who have been to both places that Turkey is much nicer than Greece – Greece is not as friendly, its more expensive and the food isn’t as good. … ML 3.0 GREECE 2007-10-12 09:05:16.4 UTC Lat: 38.52 N – Long: 23.01 E – Deph: 9 – Mag: ML 3.0. Greece journal: From Italy to Greece a journal by Meesh from a trip to Greece. Sicily was amazing. One of my favorite places in Italy for sure. We saw EVERYTHING! The people are awesome! We hooked up with this cab driver who said he would take us around to all the sights … ML 4.0 SOUTHERN GREECE 2007-10-09 02:18:54.4 UTC Lat: 36.59 N – Long: 22.92 E – Deph: 2 – Mag: ML 4.0. NYC/Greece Trip #1: Tucson-Dallas Leg Day One of the NYC/Greece Trip. I am typing this on the first leg of my flight to New York. The trip is beginning normally enough with a flight from Tucson to Dallas, one I’ve taken many, many times. This marks the first time I’ve … Things I Didn’t Know About Greece Before I Came Here Back in Athens, every cabbie is an ex-sailor, and he makes sure you find out all about it. Bluematter. There are a lot more blondes here than I expected. Strangely, it’s one of those genetic oddities that only seems to affect the female … Rehhagel reins in Greek euphoria Otto Rehhagel refused to get carried away after a 3-2 win for the European champions and a 1-1 draw for Turkey left Greece in a commanding Group C Athens, Greece Current Conditions – 7:01 PM EEST Oct. 14 Temperature: 60.9F / 16.1C | Humidity: 58% | Pressure: 30.00in / 1015.8hPa | Conditions: Mostly Cloudy | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 12. My city VIII … Greece is on the ‘information highway’… Also dedicated to the Greek government and it’s (or pretending to be) Prime Minister who declared that “Greece is on the ‘information highway’” leaving those who know what’s the internet reality in Greece speechless… … The Pink Palace – Corfu, Greece, Greece Corfu, Greece, Greece So basically at a flip of a coin, Brent and I decided to head to Greece rather than Croatia. We spent a long day traveling from Pompeii and the Amalfi coast, to the Eastern coastal town of Brindisi to catch a ferry … Greece Tourism – Greece Vacation Reviews – Greece Vacations … Greece vacations: Visit TripAdvisor, your source for the web’s best reviews and travel articles about tourism and vacation packages in Greece, Europe. Hour of the Olympics (Magic Tree House #16) (A Stepping Stone Book(TM)) Amazon Price: $3.99 My 1st grader hates to put it down, he would rather read Magic Tree House books, than play video games. He even reads them to his class and explains the story for show and tell. In his kindergarten class the teacher would also let him read the Magic Tree House books out loud, not to give her a break, but to promote reading out loud. Great books! Ancient Greece Tells about the people, philosophies, and conflicts that shaped the ancient world. The History of the Peloponnesian War: Revised Edition (Penguin Classics) Amazon Price: $10.20 There are three main translations of Thucydides available for the English reader: Thomas Hobbes’ 1628 version. Although made over 300 years ago this translation is still considered a classic by many in the English-speaking world. His vigorous and lively Jacobean English prose will enchant those more literary minded souls, but Hobbes version has been noted for some inaccuracies due to the lack of proper understanding of the original Greek language text. William Smith’s 1754 translation. Most know of Crawley and Hobbes works but Smith’s excellent 18th century version has been almost forgotten. Smith’s prose is as majestic and virile as Hobbes while avoiding the sometimes vapid modernity of Crawley and Warner. While a bit hard to read for most modern readers Smith’s prose is worth the effort if you stick with him. Some things were not meant to be “dumbed down”. Rex Warner’s Penguin edition. This is the version offered here. Warner is excellent for those who want to avoid the archaic and more challenging prose of Hobbes, Smith, or Crawley. He is very clear and lucid in his rendition of the text. For those of you who are first embarking on your exploration of Thucydides I would recommend this edition. goGreece.com: The Internet Guide to Greece and the Greek Islands Everything you always wanted to know about Greece: nature, culture, people, education, entertainment, business, news, history, and travel information. GoGreece, the starting point … Greece Travel guide, Hotels, greek islands Offers information about cities throughout Greece including hotels, museums, beaches, maps, and more. Greece Includes a travel guide to Greece, travel statistics, business laws, and info about the Greek National Tourism Organization. The Spartans: The World of the Warrior-Heroes of Ancient Greece Amazon Price: $10.17 It’s good for what it is, but I was hoping for a bit more depth. If you want a short introduction to the subject that is well written and a really fast read, this would be perfect for you. Ancient Greece – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia An encyclopedia article on the history and society of the empire. Greece Travel Information | Lonely Planet Destination Guide Lonely Planet Greece offers information on events, attractions, activities, and transportation for the independent traveler. Travels with Herodotus Amazon Price: $16.50 Just as Kapuscinski travels with Herodotus, I recommend traveling with Kapuscinski’s new book. It is fantastic. Cozy, yet worldly curious. I just got back from bopping around Costa Rica with it and it was the perfect companion during my lonely meals and end of day beer drinking. Greek Islands (Eyewitness Travel Guides) Amazon Price: $16.50 As with most DK publications this book provides excellent information and fantastic illustrations and maps. A Greece Travel Guide: Matt Barrett’s Guide to the Greek Islands, Athens and Mainland Greece By Matt Barrett. Includes a synopsis of the Greek Islands. Greece Information Information about Greece ; Greek Alphabet Get all details around the greek aphabet used over 2700 years, greek letters and pronounciation. Weather History and Average Temperatures World Factbook Redirect – Central Intelligence Agency Embassy of Greece | _____ Includes contact information for the Embassy of Greece in Washington DC, and also for the Consulates General in New York, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the … Greece – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Hyperlinked encyclopedia article covers the country’s history, government and politics, geography, economy, demographics, language and culture. The Ancient Greek World Exhibit from the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology covering the land and the time, daily life, economy, and religion and death. Greece travel with Greece for Visitors – Travel to Greece – Greek … Greece – travel to Greece, a Greece travel guide to Athens and all of Greece and the Greek islands. Free personal help planning your Greece trip. Greece travel bargains and … CIA – The World Factbook — Greece Includes reference maps and information on geography, government, economy, and transportation in Greece. [...]
43 Comment by Boba on 14 October 2007:
The Serbian People began to formulate their spiritual identity during the are of the Holy Brothers Cytil and Methodius (9th century), and their 5 disciples who followed (10th century). They are considered the first baptizes and enlighteners of the Serbs, as well as the other Slavs.
The fruit of their work, harvested for some 2 centuries from Byzantium/Bulgaria to the Adriatic, included the gradual Christianization of the Serbs both nationally and individually, the appearance of the first ascetics and saints among the Serbs, and the first monuments of Serbia’s spiritual and secular cultures.
The preference for spiritual values became an inseparable part of the Serbian national soul, as well as its lifeblood in the early stages of its history. In contrast to all of the Serbian historical monuments in Kosovo, there is not even one that is Albanian.
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/mlad/Monasteries.htm
44 Comment by Piktori on 14 October 2007:
I have a few questions for the people who don’t support Kosovo’s independence.
1. Kosovo Albanians currently have more power than what Serbia’s offer envisages. Why should they walk back into history?
2. If Serbia considered Kosovo and its people as its own, why did it burn one third of the territory, expelled half of the population, and killed 12, 000 (UN estimates)
3. Even if Albanian accept to remain within Serbia, how will Serbia integrate this populations it once terrorized?
4. Shouldn’t Serbia apologize for the crimes it committed before it asks Albanians to remain part of the country?
5. And, you all need to read a little more history. I’d recommend “Kosovo: a short history,” by Noel Malcolm.
I don’t care whether Kosovo becomes independent, but I do care about the peace in the region.
Peace out!
Piktori
45 Comment by Alban Ziguri on 14 October 2007:
Boba:
“In contrast to all of the Serbian historical monuments in Kosovo, there is not even one that is Albanian” because you Serbs destroyed them all and in their place you built your own monuments. As the saying goes, “no grass grows where the Serb treads”. You behaved like all invaders.
You razed not only monuments to the ground, but wherever you went, the first thing you did was change the place names. But you forgot one thing: As invaders that you were, you did not know all the place names. You changed the major ones only like village and mountain names and most of them are names translated from Albanian. You could not change the minor place names. You never learned them because they were too many and too small to notice. Go to all the Albanian-inhabited territories, and you will find out about this great truth.
The 9th century is too late. Albanians embraced Christianity in the first century. It would take the Serbs 8 to 9 centuries “to begin to formulate their spiritual identity”. From the first century to the ninth, you were pagans worshiping rocks, trees and animals.
46 Comment by P. Stewart on 15 October 2007:
Were the Albanians then Ethiopians when they embraced Christianity? From linguistic sources I have read, the place names in Kosovo are a mixture of slavic, Persian and Turkish. The Albanian placenames (including rivers, mountains, etc.) are of recent origin, since there was no Albanian language until the late 16th century. The present day Albanian language has no derivations that can be traced to ancient Illyrian.
The Slavs displaced the Persians from Kosovo and Montenegro. The Persians had displaced the Celts. The Albanians are a new, and not very cohesive, ethnic group with divided languages. This does not speak of long term existence in the same place.
47 Comment by PAHKO on 15 October 2007:
Косово никада неће бити независно, рекао на скупштини ДСС-а поново изабрани председник странке Војислав Коштуница.
48 Comment by Alban Ziguri on 15 October 2007:
P. Stewart:
To disperse the anti-Albanian fog that obscures your vision and to take off your anti-Albanian spectacles, read the following:
Edwin E. Jacques: “The Albanians – An Ethnic History from prehistoric times to the present” – McFarland & Company, Inc., Publishers, Jefferson, North Caroline and London
and
Noel Malcolm: “Kosovo – a Short History” – New York University Press, Washington Square, New York 1998
49 Comment by Iskander on 15 October 2007:
Ranko (or Pahko !):
What Slavic language is that?
It must be Russian. I do not think it is Serbian. Serbian must be and is a dialect of Russian. You think we are supposed to know all the Slavic dialects?
Would you be so kind as to translate that phrase of yours into plain English?
50 Comment by M.Pasholli on 15 October 2007:
There is one very interesting fact about how much serbian people really want Kosovo as integral part of Serbia.
In October 2006, Serbia held referendum on their new constitution that reaffirms Serbia’s claim to Kosovo. It needed 50% figure to pass and it was run under the slogan “Vote to save Kosovo”.
Now watch this. The results of this historical referendum:
1. 54.91% only voted, out of which
2. 53.04% only voted YES
[source http://www.srbija.sr.gov.yu
Serbia considers Kosovo as its territory but NONE of Kosovar Albanians that make up 90% of Kosovo’s population of 2 million were included in the voting list. If you’re average in maths, it would not be difficult for you to conclude that if you include only 50% of Kosovar Albanians NO’s into these statistics, the referendum is deemed to have grossly failed.
Kosovar Albanians must use these statistics as point of reference as de facto the referendum results support their claim to independence.
So much for serbian love for Kosovo!
51 Comment by Boba on 15 October 2007:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
ALBANIANS HAVE THEIR COUNTRY CALLED ALBANIA – KOSOVO IS SERBIAN AND WILL REMAIN SERBIAN LAND. ALBANIANS ARE WELCOMED TO LIVE THERE IN PEACE – OTHERWISE THEY BETTER MOVE BACK TO ALBANIA (Or, TO TEXAS, ARKANSAS…)
TO ALBANIANS – READ THE BOOK “HIDING GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO” – http://www.savekosovo.org/ –”… Was there a planned, systematic, and organized policy of rape as an instrument of terror (by Albanians) in Kosovo? David Binder reported in The New York Times on November 1, 1987 that Fadil Hoxha, the political leader of Kosovo Albanians, had advocated that Kosovo Serb women be raped by Albanian Muslims. He was inciting rape against Christian women by Albanian Muslim men to create an ethnically pure Muslim “Kosova”. Can it get any more outrageous than that? How was this incitement of rape and genocide spun in the West? The spin doctors in the West concluded that Hoxha had “joked” at an official dinner in Prizren that Kosovo Serb women should be systematically raped. Can you “joke” about rape and genocide?
52 Comment by Boba on 15 October 2007:
ALBANIANS HAVE THEIR COUNTRY CALLED ALBANIA – KOSOVO IS SERBIAN AND WILL REMAIN SERBIAN LAND. ALBANIANS ARE WELCOMED TO LIVE THERE IN PEACE – OTHERWISE THEY BETTER MOVE BACK TO ALBANIA (Or, TO TEXAS, ARKANSAS…)
TO ALBANIANS – READ THE BOOK “HIDING GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO” – http://www.savekosovo.org/ –”… Was there a planned, systematic, and organized policy of rape as an instrument of terror (by Albanians) in Kosovo? David Binder reported in The New York Times on November 1, 1987 that Fadil Hoxha, the political leader of Kosovo Albanians, had advocated that Kosovo Serb women be raped by Albanian Muslims. He was inciting rape against Christian women by Albanian Muslim men to create an ethnically pure Muslim “Kosova”. Can it get any more outrageous than that? How was this incitement of rape and genocide spun in the West? The spin doctors in the West concluded that Hoxha had “joked” at an official dinner in Prizren that Kosovo Serb women should be systematically raped. Can you “joke” about rape and genocide?
53 Comment by Boba on 16 October 2007:
Killing and expelling Serbians by force from their homes in Kosovo-Metohija by Albanians has been daily occurrence. Yet, both Clinton and Bush’s administrations have back and supported these Albanian criminals and terrorists! Something is wrong with the nation that turns its blind eyes on these kind of atrocities.
Today’s news ….”UNMIK special forces arrested Malzum Bytyqi, a Kosovo Albanian, from the village of Veliki Alas near Lipljan, on suspicion of participating in the murders of the 14 farmers from Staro Gracko on July 23, 1999, Radio KiM reports.
Bytyqi is also accused of the murder of Milen Stojanović at the end of June 1999, after which all the Serbs left the village of Veliki Alas.”
54 Comment by Iskander on 16 October 2007:
If what Boba is telling us were true, those cases that you blow out of proportions, must have been sporadic and insignificant compared to about 10, 000 Albanians murdered by the Serbian army and paramilitary marauders during the Kosova conflict and war in 1998-1999 and about one million other Albanians forced from their homes and made to flee to Albania and Macedonia.
Statistics are all there and anybody can make the comparison between the Albanians’ so-called attrocities and the Serbs’ wholesale massacre of Albanians.
Americans and Europeans know what happened in Kosova very well. Serbs cannot throw dust in the eyes of honest and peace-loving people. They can no longer play the victim and deceive public opinion about Kosova’s right to Independence and Sovereignty.
Long Live Independent and Sovereign Kosova!
55 Comment by Spectacles on 16 October 2007:
Again with the debunked numbers guys, whats up? I have returned to restate my questions and for my good Alban Ziguri here is a link to some of those dead witnesses you wanted.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/world/europe/08kosovo.html?fta=y
ofcourse I am certain you will ignore it as you have all of the others, after all I am sure you treat the comment box as a battle field and God knows you can’t acknowledge that you are wrong, lest you give up an inch. And *gasp* its a New York Times article no less. The witnesses by the way are Tahir Zemaj and his nephew as well as Kjutim Berisha.
I have to re-iterate my questions since I am sure you have ignored them thus far.
Tell me about your Old Code, that is still followed to this day the one that allowed the KLA to bully its own people.
Why do you continue to parrot an inflated round number like 10,000 when the USA (you know the USA you are the most Pro- USA people in Europe After all) says that the number is wrong and far less than 10,000 or 12,000? It is 2,788 combined Albanian,Serb,Roma,etc deaths during the Kosovo War and I’m sorry if that means you cannot act like Victims anymore.
And you cannot say that the Serbs play the victim when they are not the ones saying:
“Poor us, they killed 10,000 of our people (nevermind that we have no empirical evidence to prove it, and never mind the evidence that suggests we may have killed our own and tampered with evidence to sway the International community to our side like Rachak for example ) give us Independance, Serbs are mean *sniff sniff* they really are….”
56 Comment by Boba on 18 October 2007:
Names of the slain Serb harvesters in Staro Gracko on a memorial plate on the village school
Victims of Albanian terror during the harvest of July 1999
Bozidar D. Djekic (born 1947)
Stanimir M. Djekic (1955)
Radovan I. Zivic (1967)
Jovica I. Zivic (1970)
Mile Dj. Janicijevic (1957)
Momcilo Dj. Janicijevic (1946)
Novica M. Janicijevic (1981)
Slobodan C. Janicijevic (1965)
Milovan C. Jovanovic (1969)
Andrija M. Odalovic (1967)
Nikola V. Stojanovic (1936)
Miodrag M. Tepsic (1951)
Ljubisa D. Cvejic (1939)
Sasa J. Cvejic (1973)
57 Comment by AZiguri on 18 October 2007:
How many memorial plates would be set up for the Albanian civilians who lost their lives at the hands of the Serbian criminals? Thousands…
58 Trackback by Anonymous on 13 December 2007:
Lesbianpussylickers…
Effects reducing in spite of ahead Alaura Eden writers mission. Where lesbianpussylickers politicians existence teen, Chattanooga related. …
59 Trackback by Anonymous on 22 December 2007:
Naked Boys Underage…
…
60 Trackback by Anonymous on 22 December 2007:
Belle Naked
…
…
61 Trackback by Anonymous on 22 December 2007:
Erotic Poems…
…
62 Trackback by Anonymous on 22 December 2007:
Sucks Love…
…