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	<title>Comments on: Dr. Putnam&#8217;s Bunker-Buster</title>
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	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: &#8220;The Downside of Diversity?&#8221; (Salon on August 25th, 2007) &#171; The Club of Rome</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-12425</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;The Downside of Diversity?&#8221; (Salon on August 25th, 2007) &#171; The Club of Rome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-12425</guid>
		<description>[...] Appropriation of Putnam&#8217;s work by those advocating a dramatic curb in immigration [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Appropriation of Putnam&#8217;s work by those advocating a dramatic curb in immigration [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Conservative Heritage Times &#187; Diversity = Distrust</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-12039</link>
		<dc:creator>Conservative Heritage Times &#187; Diversity = Distrust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 14:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-12039</guid>
		<description>[...] Posted under Political Correctness &amp; Globalism   “People living in ethnically diverse settings appear to ‘hunker down,’ that is, to pull in like a turtle,” writes Putnam. They tend to “withdraw even from close friends, to expect the worst from their community and its leaders, to volunteer less, give less to charity and work on community projects less often, to register to vote less, to agitate for social reform more but have less faith they can actually make a difference, and to huddle unhappily in front of the television.” ~ Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam (via Pat Buchanan) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Posted under Political Correctness &amp; Globalism   “People living in ethnically diverse settings appear to ‘hunker down,’ that is, to pull in like a turtle,” writes Putnam. They tend to “withdraw even from close friends, to expect the worst from their community and its leaders, to volunteer less, give less to charity and work on community projects less often, to register to vote less, to agitate for social reform more but have less faith they can actually make a difference, and to huddle unhappily in front of the television.” ~ Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam (via Pat Buchanan) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11836</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Aug 2007 02:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11836</guid>
		<description>hi i enjoyed the read</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi i enjoyed the read</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11614</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11614</guid>
		<description>If Ron Paul is in the race to win why doesn&#039;t he speak up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Ron Paul is in the race to win why doesn&#8217;t he speak up?</p>
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		<title>By: John Q. Public</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11430</link>
		<dc:creator>John Q. Public</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11430</guid>
		<description>I happen to ditto avery bullard (above) with a big time DITTO. &#039;There&#039;s enormous power in the victim Role; no power in being the Actual victim.&#039; -myself in conversation with a sweet tree. - Anglo-Saxon America has been hammered almost to extinction with its own Values. However where-?-was/(yet still is their sin in this scenario?)...Their secnario or schematic as I&#039;ve written above was sadly to replace with their &#039;enlightened&#039; culture [via John Locke] Xianity i.e. Christianity. Let me pander to the secular...and if they don&#039;t believe in sin suggest that &quot;Sin&quot; was a mistake (I would venture to say you know it&#039;s a sin if it&#039;s a mistake on more levels than you can count.) The real question for them given this reality which they simply don&#039;t wish since Henry VIII &gt;&gt;&gt; to abide or to metabolize is a question within themselves. And subsequently what therefore they create or if you prefer they &#039;manifest&#039; outside themselves? That question being-as put succinctly by Their bard- (and what a windfall he was for them...even if he&#039;s yet to get thru To-them, much like Genesis for the jews, though it&#039;s not gotten thru yet to them either): &quot;to be or Not to be?&quot; ... Hey, I hear it - i&#039;m on the side these days of to be...although i used to feel rather it was six of one half-dozen of another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I happen to ditto avery bullard (above) with a big time DITTO. &#8216;There&#8217;s enormous power in the victim Role; no power in being the Actual victim.&#8217; -myself in conversation with a sweet tree. &#8211; Anglo-Saxon America has been hammered almost to extinction with its own Values. However where-?-was/(yet still is their sin in this scenario?)&#8230;Their secnario or schematic as I&#8217;ve written above was sadly to replace with their &#8216;enlightened&#8217; culture [via John Locke] Xianity i.e. Christianity. Let me pander to the secular&#8230;and if they don&#8217;t believe in sin suggest that &#8220;Sin&#8221; was a mistake (I would venture to say you know it&#8217;s a sin if it&#8217;s a mistake on more levels than you can count.) The real question for them given this reality which they simply don&#8217;t wish since Henry VIII &gt;&gt;&gt; to abide or to metabolize is a question within themselves. And subsequently what therefore they create or if you prefer they &#8216;manifest&#8217; outside themselves? That question being-as put succinctly by Their bard- (and what a windfall he was for them&#8230;even if he&#8217;s yet to get thru To-them, much like Genesis for the jews, though it&#8217;s not gotten thru yet to them either): &#8220;to be or Not to be?&#8221; &#8230; Hey, I hear it &#8211; i&#8217;m on the side these days of to be&#8230;although i used to feel rather it was six of one half-dozen of another.</p>
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		<title>By: Avery Bullard</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11426</link>
		<dc:creator>Avery Bullard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 17:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11426</guid>
		<description>Sid - &quot;Any Jew and any Irishman and any Catholic can tell about discrimination in those years against them&quot;

Every ethnic group on earth can say they were discriminated against. The Jews and the Irish are just bigger whiners than most. How have those two groups shown their appreciation toward Anglo-Saxon America for allowing them the opportunities they have had in the U.S.A? I believe they thanked them by first complaining about discrimination. Then by using their votes and media influence to flood America with Third World, making the descendants of those Americans who built the country a minority. And finally they used their influence to drag Americans further into Middle Eastern and Irish/British politics. Anglo-Saxon America owes them nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sid &#8211; &#8220;Any Jew and any Irishman and any Catholic can tell about discrimination in those years against them&#8221;</p>
<p>Every ethnic group on earth can say they were discriminated against. The Jews and the Irish are just bigger whiners than most. How have those two groups shown their appreciation toward Anglo-Saxon America for allowing them the opportunities they have had in the U.S.A? I believe they thanked them by first complaining about discrimination. Then by using their votes and media influence to flood America with Third World, making the descendants of those Americans who built the country a minority. And finally they used their influence to drag Americans further into Middle Eastern and Irish/British politics. Anglo-Saxon America owes them nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: John Q. Public</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11423</link>
		<dc:creator>John Q. Public</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11423</guid>
		<description>I expect Hillary will defeat Mitt... and the first &#039;attempt&#039; to hold us together will be via prudent socialization of medicine etc. Or a line will be crossed making life untenable to the 99% who have to share only 20% of the bounty of what (they) americans produce. Since in Fact there no longer is any &quot;us&quot; really to hold together. Then like the first amoeba whose size made it no longer a tenable organism unless it divided, the country will begin to spilit apart. It won&#039;t seem like secession but like scratching one&#039;s head. From our very inception as a nation american culture has been a veiled attempt at replacing christianity with itself. Frankly speaking it did not work. Rather it created in Fact a collection of &quot;I&#039;s&quot; or number 1&#039;s (me, myself, &amp; I) who believe everything else is a part of them. Rather than what emanates from mother Nature and the Christian Religion that God or the godhead or the group or common weal is first/holy and we individually are a part of it. And that reality itself emanates out of the land we *belong* to... The - if you will &#039;touchy-feely-ness&#039; of which we have been removed from by technology. And so that too is neither a back-up influence. Maybe the old Texas will be an example-?-every State a Republic~! But the point I&#039;m making is it won&#039;t change itself...given its current size and ways...reality only will change it to survive like at the most fundamental levels of life reality changed the amoeba. We&#039;re conceptual creatures; but really we&#039;re creatures who are conceptual ... meaning it&#039;s the horse that pulls the cart. cheers! Yes mother Nature is cruel, but she&#039;s also kind. Once we&#039;re sitting in the cart (as consciousness, aware of being aware) behind the horse, for the most part sadly, we&#039;re driving her stone blind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I expect Hillary will defeat Mitt&#8230; and the first &#8216;attempt&#8217; to hold us together will be via prudent socialization of medicine etc. Or a line will be crossed making life untenable to the 99% who have to share only 20% of the bounty of what (they) americans produce. Since in Fact there no longer is any &#8220;us&#8221; really to hold together. Then like the first amoeba whose size made it no longer a tenable organism unless it divided, the country will begin to spilit apart. It won&#8217;t seem like secession but like scratching one&#8217;s head. From our very inception as a nation american culture has been a veiled attempt at replacing christianity with itself. Frankly speaking it did not work. Rather it created in Fact a collection of &#8220;I&#8217;s&#8221; or number 1&#8217;s (me, myself, &amp; I) who believe everything else is a part of them. Rather than what emanates from mother Nature and the Christian Religion that God or the godhead or the group or common weal is first/holy and we individually are a part of it. And that reality itself emanates out of the land we *belong* to&#8230; The &#8211; if you will &#8216;touchy-feely-ness&#8217; of which we have been removed from by technology. And so that too is neither a back-up influence. Maybe the old Texas will be an example-?-every State a Republic~! But the point I&#8217;m making is it won&#8217;t change itself&#8230;given its current size and ways&#8230;reality only will change it to survive like at the most fundamental levels of life reality changed the amoeba. We&#8217;re conceptual creatures; but really we&#8217;re creatures who are conceptual &#8230; meaning it&#8217;s the horse that pulls the cart. cheers! Yes mother Nature is cruel, but she&#8217;s also kind. Once we&#8217;re sitting in the cart (as consciousness, aware of being aware) behind the horse, for the most part sadly, we&#8217;re driving her stone blind.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11420</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11420</guid>
		<description>I am not an expert on culture, but, using Pieper&#039;s definition in Leisure the Basis of Culture, America does not have a culture.   The minimum requirement to have a culture is to have a cultus.  That is there must be formal, regularly scheduled acts of public worship/celebration of a more or less fixed form, plus special, occasional worship events, also of fixed form but different from the regular events and that all take part in.  (Public sports are merely an extension of the theatre and therefore entertainment, and do not count as cultus.)  According to this definition, parts of America have some remnants of culture, but the country as a whole has none.  And it shows, and it shows, and it shows!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not an expert on culture, but, using Pieper&#8217;s definition in Leisure the Basis of Culture, America does not have a culture.   The minimum requirement to have a culture is to have a cultus.  That is there must be formal, regularly scheduled acts of public worship/celebration of a more or less fixed form, plus special, occasional worship events, also of fixed form but different from the regular events and that all take part in.  (Public sports are merely an extension of the theatre and therefore entertainment, and do not count as cultus.)  According to this definition, parts of America have some remnants of culture, but the country as a whole has none.  And it shows, and it shows, and it shows!</p>
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		<title>By: Johan Dieckmann</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11419</link>
		<dc:creator>Johan Dieckmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11419</guid>
		<description>Oh yes, here it is:

http://www.taxpayer.net/awards/goldenfleece/about.htm

&quot;Senator Proxmire, where are you when we need you?&quot;  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yes, here it is:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.taxpayer.net/awards/goldenfleece/about.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.taxpayer.net/awards/goldenfleece/about.htm</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Senator Proxmire, where are you when we need you?&#8221;  <img src='http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sid Cundiff</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/index.php/2007/08/13/dr-putnams-bunker-buster/comment-page-1/#comment-11415</link>
		<dc:creator>Sid Cundiff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2007 15:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=281#comment-11415</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to turn back from education to the general question of the stability of a polyethnic and polyreligious social order. (By &quot;ethnic group&quot; I mean a people with a common history and ,sometimes in that history, pitted against other groups.)

1. &quot;Between 1924 and 1965, the Melting Pot worked. It converted the children of 15 million European immigrants into American citizens with shared traditions, values and culture.&quot; 

Not really.  Any Jew and any Irishman and any Catholic can tell about discrimination in those years against them.  That discrimination ended not by their melting into a homogeneous blob with the rest of us. In fact, America was always and from the start polyethnic and polyreligious, as David Hackett Fischer has proven.  Discrimination against Jews and Catholic ethnics ended because of the tradition of what Europeans call &quot;Liberalism&quot;, and is best represented by Jeffersonianism.  It ended by the attempted privatization of religion and ethnic identity. It also ended because the market doesn&#039;t care who your father was or where you go to church.  

Yet it&#039;s worth asking if Liberalism or a business culture in this sense is enough to hold people together.  There seems to be reasons to doubt this.  Similar doubts ought to be raised about Social Democracy of the Rawls stamp. For Leviathan too quickly becomes the tool of one ethnic group or religion to mistreat another.  The libertarians think that with less coercion, folks leave each other alone. I not so sure about that either.  Well, what then are the alternatives to Liberalism?

Homoreligiousity? This worked in the Austrian Empire and Belgium in 1830 (together with a prestigious throne) until nationalism fractured them.  Still, our memory of the 17th Century prevents this from being an option.  The Puritans tried it on our shores.  William Penn and Roger Williams had their objections.  Or do when wish whole states to be only of one legal religion (as each of the 13 colonies were?)

Homoethnicity?  Nationalism tried this, and we know the bloody result.  Even where a national state is homoethnic, it seems to be unable to leave its neighbors alone.  Chamberlain thought that by letting the German Sudentenland join the Reich, we&#039;d have perpetual peace.  We in America tried this with The Indian Removal Bill to Oklahoma and Reservations.  And because almost everyone regards this as a shameful moment in our history, the idea that it could be done again isn&#039;t realistic. Secession captures my fancy, however quixotic it may be.  Yet the economy is world-wide, we sell in all markets, and if it takes as long to fly to Rome as it takes to walk across my county, then we&#039;re going to have to live in some sort of a polyethnic social order.   It&#039;s a moot point anyway: Neither politicial party will do anything to stop the immigration or expel illegals.  

So if a homoreligious and homoethnic order  just isn&#039;t possible, what do we then do to hold us together?   Roger Scruton argues for a common and large embracing culture, culture being &quot;the consolation prize for the loss of religion&quot;.  And culture can be shared.   I welcome other responses -- responses that are not so risible as to suggest that we can and ought to have another St. Bart&#039;s Day Massacre or another Indian Removal Bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to turn back from education to the general question of the stability of a polyethnic and polyreligious social order. (By &#8220;ethnic group&#8221; I mean a people with a common history and ,sometimes in that history, pitted against other groups.)</p>
<p>1. &#8220;Between 1924 and 1965, the Melting Pot worked. It converted the children of 15 million European immigrants into American citizens with shared traditions, values and culture.&#8221; </p>
<p>Not really.  Any Jew and any Irishman and any Catholic can tell about discrimination in those years against them.  That discrimination ended not by their melting into a homogeneous blob with the rest of us. In fact, America was always and from the start polyethnic and polyreligious, as David Hackett Fischer has proven.  Discrimination against Jews and Catholic ethnics ended because of the tradition of what Europeans call &#8220;Liberalism&#8221;, and is best represented by Jeffersonianism.  It ended by the attempted privatization of religion and ethnic identity. It also ended because the market doesn&#8217;t care who your father was or where you go to church.  </p>
<p>Yet it&#8217;s worth asking if Liberalism or a business culture in this sense is enough to hold people together.  There seems to be reasons to doubt this.  Similar doubts ought to be raised about Social Democracy of the Rawls stamp. For Leviathan too quickly becomes the tool of one ethnic group or religion to mistreat another.  The libertarians think that with less coercion, folks leave each other alone. I not so sure about that either.  Well, what then are the alternatives to Liberalism?</p>
<p>Homoreligiousity? This worked in the Austrian Empire and Belgium in 1830 (together with a prestigious throne) until nationalism fractured them.  Still, our memory of the 17th Century prevents this from being an option.  The Puritans tried it on our shores.  William Penn and Roger Williams had their objections.  Or do when wish whole states to be only of one legal religion (as each of the 13 colonies were?)</p>
<p>Homoethnicity?  Nationalism tried this, and we know the bloody result.  Even where a national state is homoethnic, it seems to be unable to leave its neighbors alone.  Chamberlain thought that by letting the German Sudentenland join the Reich, we&#8217;d have perpetual peace.  We in America tried this with The Indian Removal Bill to Oklahoma and Reservations.  And because almost everyone regards this as a shameful moment in our history, the idea that it could be done again isn&#8217;t realistic. Secession captures my fancy, however quixotic it may be.  Yet the economy is world-wide, we sell in all markets, and if it takes as long to fly to Rome as it takes to walk across my county, then we&#8217;re going to have to live in some sort of a polyethnic social order.   It&#8217;s a moot point anyway: Neither politicial party will do anything to stop the immigration or expel illegals.  </p>
<p>So if a homoreligious and homoethnic order  just isn&#8217;t possible, what do we then do to hold us together?   Roger Scruton argues for a common and large embracing culture, culture being &#8220;the consolation prize for the loss of religion&#8221;.  And culture can be shared.   I welcome other responses &#8212; responses that are not so risible as to suggest that we can and ought to have another St. Bart&#8217;s Day Massacre or another Indian Removal Bill.</p>
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