“Refugees from the Former Yugoslavia”
by Thomas Fleming
[Subscribe online to Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture. Click here for details].
The six foreigners who planned a mass-murder at Fort Dix were originally described (by the FBI apparently) as being from the Former Yugoslavia. My initial question was Bosnian Muslim or Albanians? If the men had been Serbs, the term would have to have been “Serb terrorists.” As the story is being reported now, none is in fact from Yugoslavia. Of the six “Islamic militants” (one cannot say Muslim terrorists), one is from our ally Jordan, a second from our ally Turkey, and the other four are from Albania. The only way to reconcile the two versions is to assume that the four Albanians spent time in Kosovo.
If more details had been released in the beginning, we should have known the terrorists are Albanian. What other Muslims would go to the the Poconos to train—why not Tel Aviv? Who else could think that paintball games were sufficient combat training to take on a US Army post. Who else would take their training photos to a fast photo finishing place to be developed? I am reminded of the Albanian spy who came to America during the Cold War. Knowing nothing about the US and understanding little English, he went around asking suspicious questions about how to meet influential politicians.
More recently, there was the Albanian thief who robbed a series of upscale jewelry stores. When he was finally caught and questioned, he explained he was raising money for the Albanian lobby. What Albanian lobby? Ask Bob Dole. Ask Tom Lantos. Ask all the other members of Congress on both sides of the aisle who have been taking Albanian money and covering for the Kosovo Albanian terrorists whose principal fund-raising activities include trafficking in heroin trade and white women slaves: In Europe they are the major players in both businesses.
The strangest part of all this is that the bribe-takers have done their job well. Non-Albanians have been murdered and driven out of Kosovo, Orthodox churches by the score have been dynamited, and the Bush administration is committed to giving the terrorists their independence. They will immediately finish their job—the genocide of Christian Serbs—and, even better from our point of view—they will establish a Muslim terrorist state in the heart of Europe. This is what it means to have the best Congress that foreigners can buy.
Misguided Americans generously took in Bosnian Muslim and Albanian Muslim refugees. The Albanians, significantly, were given hospitality in Fort Dix. Then why would Albanian Muslims go out of their way to antagonize their benefactors? Because, in addition to being thieves, rapists, drug-racketeers, kidnappers, extortionists, and homicidal maniacs, they are the dumbest people in Europe.
Will this “incident” have the slightest impact on the negotiations over the status of Kosovo? I doubt it. Why? Because Americans are dumber than the dumbest people in Europe.
[Subscribe online to Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture. Click here for details].
1 Comment by Michael J. Keegan on 8 May 2007:
Dr. Fleming –
I was driving to work this morning when I heard this report. I shared your reaction to this news and thought: what’s the point?
It’s simply ridiculous: the msm either gets the facts wrong (as it turns out in this case) or simply chooses to contort reality to suit some prescribed ideology — or both!
It’s not even subtle anymore…I mean it is downright clumsy and awkward in its presentation that, even, to the untrained ear – one has to recognize something is wrong – seriously amiss…
2 Comment by Chris Ikaris on 8 May 2007:
According to WNBC-TV in New York City, one of the six men charged is Mohamad Shnewer, “a U.S. citizen born in Jordan.” It is comforting to know that the government’s naturalization process made Mr. Shnewer a “citizen.”
This story should also put a lie to the often repeated claim that “we are fighting them over there (Iraq), so we don’t have to fight them here.”
They are already here and have been for some time. Long enough here that they are being made “citizens.”
But don’t expect any of these facts to make one whit of difference to immigration or naturalization policy.
With new “citizens” like M. Shnewer living among us, who needs foreign terrorists?
3 Comment by Bill Wilder on 8 May 2007:
Before this devolves into vendetta, Dr. Fleming’s barb was directed at Americans and it did not refer to Albanians (or other peoples in Europe).
4 Comment by TJF on 8 May 2007:
I was very careful to say “Albanian Muslims” are the dumbest people in Europe. Scanderbeg, though temporarily a Muslim convert, returned to Christianity. He was at the least half Slavic/Serbian as everyone but dumb Albanian Muslims realize. Also, as Bill Wilder points out, I have used a rhetorical device familiar to educated Westerns, X is bad, Y is worse.
If Mr. Velo is a Muslim Albanian, then it is odd he is not incensed over my characterization of his people as narco-trafficking homicidal maniacs–or would that be regarded as a compliment? And if he is not a Muslim, then why does he always defend the Albanian Muslims who persecuted his Christian ancestors? This is common among Albanian-American Catholis, who, I conclude are more evil than stupid.
Finally, if people like Mr. Velo want to defend their compatriots who come here, abuse our hospitality, and plot murder and mayhem, I wonder what they might be stockpiling in their basement.
5 Comment by Chris Ikaris on 8 May 2007:
According to the complaint that has been filed, three of the accused terrorists – Dritan Duka, Eljvir Duka and Shain Duka – are illegal aliens. What a surprise.
Can anyone in politics fail to notice that Monsieur Sarkozy was just elected President of France in large measure because of his opposition to illegal immigration, especially of the Muslim variety?
If there is an argument about who are the dumbest people then I nominate the leaders of the Republican Party, starting with Dubya (a.k.a. Dumbo) for their failure to face the reality of illegal immigration and Muslim immigration, especially illegal Muslim immigration!
6 Comment by G.S. on 8 May 2007:
“…but he fails to understand that blood precedes religion.”
Hmmm.
“blood precedes religion.”
Apparently Abraham disagreed with you on that score, me bucko:
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/HEBREWS/GENABRAH.HTM
7 Comment by TJF on 8 May 2007:
Where to begin with poor Mr. Velo. The Greeks did not have exclusive sects nor where they particularly loyal as Greeks: Many very fine Greek towns supported the Persians out of fear or hatred to Athens. In Albania itself, the tribes are hardly capable of much national loyalty. Anybody remember the not-so-distant Albanian civil war when people from rival tribes and factions burned down each other’s hospitals? These people may be geographically European, but they have been turned into something a good deal more savage than their Turkish overlords ever were.
What Mr. Velo is describing is not the primitive loyalty of early Medieval Albanians, who intermarried freely with Greeks and Slavs and fought along with them against the Turks. Many of the best of them migrated to Italy–persecuted by the Turks and the renegade Albanians who sold out their people and their God for nothing better than the opportunity to loot, rape, and kill Christians.
No, we are dealng at all with tribal loyalty, which conservatives should respect, but with a virulent nationalist racism promoted by Muslim Albanians and their pseudo-Christian stooges. It is amusing to look at Albanian nationalist propaganda. First, there are their absurd maps on which they claim most of Sicily, along with northern Greece, Macedonia, and much of Montenegro–to say nothing of Kosovo. Then there are their hilarious race theories according to which they are the only pure race in Europe, when in fact one would be hard pressed to find a more mongrel race than the Albanians.
In Kosovo the virulent racism of the Albanians has led them to attack not only Serbs and Croats but also Gypsies, Turks, and Slavic Muslims. As one poor Muslim told a reporter, after being asked why his people were being attacked by their co-religionists: “Their only god is Albanian nationalism.
Poor Pellumbi Velo. Normally, I do not permit racist bigots to spew their venom on our website, but in this case it has been educational. Every word he utters reveals the character of his people and their religion–a sick parody of Islam, a religion stripped of its humanity and decency. He is one of the best reasons I know for deporting Muslims back to where they came from. The first step is to deport him from Chroniclesmagazine.org
8 Pingback by Eunomia · Fort Dix on 8 May 2007:
[...] My father’s family is from New Jersey, and my great-grandfather was at Fort Dix after being mobilised for WWI (he subsequently caught influenza, but fortunately survived), so I feel as if I have some more immediate connection to the story of the planned assault on Fort Dix by the six foreign Muslims (four Albanians, one Turk, one Jordanian). As Dr. Fleming points out, this was not exactly a band of cunning masterminds, and no wonder that it wasn’t. I will probably have more to say about this later, but it is worth remembering episodes like these after our government went out of its way to support the cause of Albanian Muslims. [...]
9 Comment by Bob Sale on 8 May 2007:
“If Mr. Velo is a Muslim Albanian, then it is odd he is not incensed over my characterization of his people as narco-trafficking homicidal maniacs … ”
That’s what I was thinking!
Excellent essay; even better ripostes (from TGF).
10 Comment by Bob Sale on 8 May 2007:
“(from TGF)”
Oops, meant TJF.
The other day Thomas Fleming called for at least some honesty, and today might be that day. Fleming lays it all out above, and earlier today Pat Buchanan set the Queen straight with a narrative of America’s founding that smacks of Howard Zinn and not Bill Bennett! But he tells the truth! They both do. Thank God for that.
11 Comment by TJF on 8 May 2007:
If I did not make it clear, I should say that George Kastrioti Skanderbeg is one of the great man of European history. As a hostage at the Ottoman court, he converted to Islam and became one of their greatest commanders. Returned to Albania, he renounced his allegiance and his false religion and he fought as an ally of the great Hungarian John Hunyadi. His descendants migrated to Italy, unable to live under the brutal and inhumane rule of the Turks and the Albanian renegades. Today’s Albanian Muslims and their false-Christian defenders, although they claim Skanderbeg as a national hero, are not worthy so much as to speak his name. Of course there are Albanians who have not fallen for either Islam or Albanian racist-nationalism, but they are not defending terrorism.
12 Comment by Nicholas G.P. Moses on 8 May 2007:
“Blood precedes religion.”
I think G.S. and T.J.F. must concede that for many an Albanian, it certainly does.
13 Comment by Alex on 9 May 2007:
Bravo Dr. Flemming. I have read Chronicles with interest and as a Greek we are familiar with the potential for Islamic terrorism among Albanians. Happily, most of the Albanians now settled in Greece have become Orthodox and are settling in as productive members of society. But Kosovo Albanians seem to be a breed apart in their viciousness. Further, Skanderbeg was a Byzantine nobleman, who may have been Albanian in blood, or Greek, or Slav, but he fought for Byzantine Orthodoxy, and the flag of Albanian is the Byzantine War Flag. Isnt it interesting that this flag so worshipped by Greek, Serbs, and Russians, should be used by unhistorical islamists in their pursuit of a nationhood?
14 Comment by Red Phillips on 9 May 2007:
It is nice to have the comments section back.
15 Comment by Sid Cundiff on 9 May 2007:
Back in my days of schoolmastering, I was amazed at the number of my colleagues who swore they would never leave the United States, never mind that Rome is a lot closer to my town than Alaska or Hawaii. Their ideal vacation: Williamsburg? Jamestown? Shiloh battlefield? Nay, friends: Daytona and Las Vegas.
Gringos (Ricains to you French, Amis to you Germans, Yanks to you Brits, and D** Yankees to folk from my country) don’t know much about foreign matters. They know no foreign languages, can’t find Albania on a map; and when they travel abroad, they stay in the Hilton. I have in Rome a favorite hotel, a hotel that has offered me nothing but helpful and gracious service. One wouldn’t know it from the Gringo comments about this hotel posted on traveladvisor.com. Gringos and Gringas demand bacon&eggs for breakfast, a bad habit they share with the otherwise more cosmopolitan Brits and Irish; they become indignant upon finding their the hotel room isn’t the size of a Texas stadium, whine the management doesn’t turn on the air-conditioning in April and May (a complaint I’ve I’ve never from Mitteleuropäer), and have no idea how to use the gauze curtains to keep mosquitoes out. When not welcomed by hotel and restaurant staff with the grin of a village idiot, they claim an “unfriendly” mien. In fairness, the majority of such umbrage comes from from the Southwest and northeast corners of Gringoland. And Gringos also cannot possibly conceive why anyone would want to hate us.
Sunk so deep in the Egyptian Night, what else ought one expect from Gringos with respect to foreign events, be it in either Belfast or the Balkans?
16 Comment by Sid Cundiff on 9 May 2007:
Sorry for the typos!
17 Comment by chris on 9 May 2007:
>The Yugos had their Balije (dumb muslim Slav) just
>like the Soviets had their Poles.
The statement that Albanians are the dumbest people in Europe is a statement of fact.
That the Soviets looked down on Poles means nothing as the last thing the Poles were was the dumbest people in the Soviet bloc.
It’s about statistics.
18 Comment by Charles Grote on 9 May 2007:
dumb–from Old Saxon ‘tumbe’, basically, not able to speak (well). –”If the shoe fits, wear it.” The pictures of these guys in question may well be adopted by Merriam Webster as examples in their next edition.
19 Comment by TJF on 10 May 2007:
Although I do not want to stir up any more contempt against Albanians, who are prisoners of their own fantasy world, I do recall a flight from Amsterdam (or maybe Munich) to Chicago. I was studying a Serbian grammar and noticed that the man in the window seat was sneaking glances at my book. He ordered some water and proceeded, deliberately, to spill a little on my jacket, which gave him the opportunity he was looking for to ask a question:
“So why are you studying this crazy language?”
I explained that I often travelled in the Balkans. I guessed from his accent and looks that he was from Yugoslavia and probably a Serb, which proved to be the case. He was living in Germany and swore he would never go back to that GD place, where people were always killing each other over ethnicity and religion.
“But, you seem to think you know a little about my country and its peoples. ”
“A little.”
“Then tell me who those people are over there across the aisle.”
I looked and there was a large family, badly dressed, with their shoes off, blocking the aisle, talking loudly and acting in general as if they were a circus act.
“Oh,” I replied, “You mean the Albanians.”
“This calls for a drink.”
But, among Serbs, what doesn’t call for a drink. The shoeless Albanians remind of a joke popular in Serbia s a few years ago. A Serb gets on a plane and finds himself seated between two Albanians. He takes his shoes off to relax and decides to make the best of it. Getting up to go the bathroom, he asks the Albanians if he can get anything. “You could bring me a coke,” said one of them, and as the Serb was walking down the aisle, the Albanian spat in one of his shoes. As the plane was about to begin its descent, the Serb needed to go to the bathroom again and asked the Albanians if they wanted anything. This time the other one asked for a coke, and as soon as the Serb had turned his back, he spat in the other shoe. Soon they had to fasten their seatbelts and prepare for landing. The Serb put his feet into his shoes and immediately realized what had been done. With a disgusted look on his face, he cried out:
“We have been at each others’ throats for centuries. When it is ever going to end, this spitting in shoes and p-ssing in cokes?”
20 Comment by Sid Cundiff on 10 May 2007:
As an “Appalachian White”, I’ve had to endure the obloquy, opprobrium, denigration, and belittlement directed at this group, if not indeed at “Scots Irish” Southerners in general, or at least West Virginians. Never mind that this group, considered as a whole, is the source of all American music and dancing, be it Black or White; of much of the literature worth reading since 1930; and of all but three American soldiers worth mentioning (Washington, Lee, and George Marshall were Virginia Cavaliers).
What is more, both a Catholic and a so-called “Scots-Irish” (better: Border Briton/Backcountry), I’ve seen the deplorable importation into my county of that particular odium that is Ulster’s, an importation gone unnoticed by the media.
Indeed, I’ve been caught in the crossfire. Myself enthused by Fischer’s Albion’s Seed, my efforts to associate myself with a “Scots Irish” association in my country ran into the proverbial stone wall when I told them I was Catholic. My local chapter of the League of the South broke up when an Orangeman would-be led an exodus out because our chaplain was a Catholic, began prayers with the sign of the Trinity, and talked about Gibson’s film. (Folks should be allowed to pray in their own religious [a.k.a. “sectarian”] tradition – and the sight of hyper-Calvinists virtually in alliance with the ACLU is, at best, an ironic one.) I worry, perhaps without warrant, that the entire League is jeopardized by those who think it’s still a.D. 1690 – though I should add immediately that the League’s leadership is not anti-Catholic, and may even see Republican Ireland’s revolt as something of a model for Dixie. Certainly the Irish Republican flag is a model of inclusiveness.
Immigrant groups throughout American history have tried to get their new country involved in the issues of the old, from the Huguenots of 1700 to the Zionists today. Whatever the merits of such involvement, Ulster’s odium just isn’t the US of A’s, and Gringoland should stay out. Is the Balkans’?
21 Comment by Sid Cundiff on 10 May 2007:
The italics should end after “not”. I’m going blind.
22 Comment by Gigi N. Goode on 10 May 2007:
I know of a family from Albania back in the mid-1990s who had great problems with Muslim Albanian clans.
The family are Orthodox Christians who had flee in GREAT HASTE to Greece to get away from “WHITE SLAVER” muslim men who came into their hometown and wanted the families daughters, aged 9, 13 and 15.
The family was assisted by a Priest in Greece who happened to be related to them by marriage. Even the Greek government helped them get away from the Albanian mob. The threats to this family were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by the Greek authorities.
The family eventually made it to the USA where they have more relatives. But you know what, they had to be very careful as they were afraid the Albanian Muslim mob with its evil clan system, could get even with them EVEN in the USA.
How do I know them, I am related to them by marriage.
And they have NO problems at all with their fellow Orthodox Serbs. IN fact, we ALL helped some Serbian refugees who came to the USA, from Croatia a few years ago.
23 Comment by Thomas Fleming on 10 May 2007:
Albanian Christians have suffered more from Albanian Muslims than any people in the Balkans.
24 Comment by Dragana Bishop on 10 May 2007:
Very good artical, as a Serbian I am impresed. One thing has to be made clear here: “muslim Albenians” are as far from any religion as one can be, and only reason they use any conection with the religion is to acctualy exploit the same for the purpose of political gain. The one and only purpose for them is to create “the Greater Albenia”. I am pleased to see that at least some of the “Gringos” are avare of Albenians and who they are , and we in Serbia have a “pleasure ” to live with them on daily basis.
“There is a reason why the Serbs encouraged and never destroyed Albanian mosques, the more islamic Albanians are precieved to be, the better for the Serbs.” this comment is particulary stupid, the Serbian people do have respect for the religin as well for the historic building, and that is why they keept mosques intact, as oposed to those Albenians who burned Ortodox churches builed in Kosovo around 1340 BC , at the same time when those dumb Albenians were part of who knows which state in the mid. east. Doctor Fleming hit the nerve, and P.Velo is typical example of Albenians ignorance, stupidity etc. Personaly, I would like to see all Albenians in one state, far away from us or any other civilised society. There is nothing we can learn from them, and they do not wish to learn, so the best is to let them live the life from middle ages……Shame it is not possible.
Good work Doctor Fleming.
P.S. Sorry about the splelling,
25 Comment by Dragana Bishop on 10 May 2007:
Oh, just looked at the above and there is a “time” error, it was not 1340 BC, should be After the Crist. And, plese do ignore my English grammar too.
Regards.
26 Comment by Clyde Wilson on 10 May 2007:
Sid, I have been fighting excess intolerant Calvinism in the League for over ten years.
27 Comment by Clyde Wilson on 10 May 2007:
P.S. It is NOT the Southern tradition.
28 Comment by Red Phillips on 10 May 2007:
Dr. Wilson,
What is, in your opinion, the Southern religious tradition? The way I see it, initially there were a lot of Anglicans and Presbyterians. The Southern Presbyterians were Calvinists (some like Dabney and Jackson more so than others), but they weren’t “intolerant” Calvinists as those you refer to, who actually smack more of the Yankee Puritans.
The more modern Southern Tradition is clearly the revivalist denominations – Baptists > Methodists > Church of Christ, that at some point surpassed the Presbyterians and Anglicans/Episcopalians.
Much to the chagrin of some paleos, the Southern religious tradition is not Catholic either. (Except perhaps in Maryland.)
So it seems that what the correct tradition is largely depends on how far back you go. The current and more recent tradition is Baptist and Baptistic.
29 Comment by Milan Sydney on 10 May 2007:
i read the article and i am very pleased to finally see an American who understands how widly misinformed the American people are when it comes to Balkan politics. Firstly Serbs have been the victims of US political agenda for the last 20 years. Even now the US is supporting an independant KOSOVO but at the same time the government is well informed that the country is the gateway for terrorism, drug and human trafficking. Why does the government still support these inhumane scums, well because they would rather see the mass slaughter of Serbs from Kosovo rather than supressing Europe’s main terrorist breading ground!
30 Comment by Clyde Wilson on 10 May 2007:
Sid, you forgot Loosiana. The tradition (as opposed to the present diseased state due to the infusion of the Yankee brand of carnival tent evangelism throughout the 20th century), is orthodox Christian belief with mutual tolerance among denominations. I think of antebellum Charleston, where the Catholic Bishop England, the Lutheran Bachman, the Methodist Capers, the Baptist Furman, the Presbyterian Thornwell, and the Episcopalisn Miles got along fine. They even brought along the Yankee Unitarian who after a few years in Charleston became orthodox. They all understood that the republican public sphere was Christian but not denominational. Calvinists have never understood this, though, as you point out, the Scots Presbyterians do not attempt to dominate like the Yankee Puritans do (even after they become atheists).
31 Trackback by Byzantine Sacred Art Blog on 11 May 2007:
Kosovo Albanian New Jersey Terror Plot: Balkan Experts…
Nebojsa Malic Unveils the Bias: Jihad in New Jersey — Balkans Blowback Excerpt from an article by Nebojsa Malic [...] It is now known that of the six suspects, three were in the US illegally. One was Jordanian, another……
32 Comment by Leon Haller on 11 May 2007:
My Balkan ethnographic sense is poor. Are Albanians members of the white race? Or are they just the miscegenated descendents of Turks? Culturally, of course, they are not European. But neither are Bosnians, most of whom, however, have looked white on television.
33 Comment by Bob Partisan on 11 May 2007:
A tip of the hat to Thomas Fleming for such a fine written article. In essence I believe you have been able to capture the Albanian mentality superbly. Although as it goes for any ethnic group it is important to note there are also good, decent and hardworking people. However in the case of the Albanians those good people make the minority.
You cant help but feel sorry for the Albanians, destroyed themselves communism only to be left vulnerable to radicam Islam (which usually preys on the mentally weak)
The questions begs, looking at the state in which Albania finds itself both politically and economically, can they really be given a chance to run another ‘country’, Kosovo?
It will be a catastrophe, one which was blessed by the US!
34 Comment by Rexxy on 11 May 2007:
You will not find one Albanian cheering for these idiot bafoons ….what these 4 have done or attempted to stupidly do will not have no affect for the other ten million Albanians in this world ..
the only ones cheering are the historic enemies of Albanians …
ps ….Thomas Fleming .. your article is exactly that -your article-
and your article is biased
35 Comment by Chuck Simmins on 11 May 2007:
It appears that the men in question arrived in the United States in 1984, as very small children. At that time, they would have been fleeing Communist Yugoslavia. Before the latest rounds of the Balkan Wars, they could have lived anywhere in the country, from Croatia to Kosovo. Where they came from has not been determined.
Their actions, however, do not reflect at all upon the Kosovo refugees accepted by the United States in the 1990’s. These men has already been in our country for a decade or more.
36 Comment by Rexxy on 11 May 2007:
Bob The Partisan ….HI
the author of this article falls into your lap …dont he ?
37 Comment by David Rolfe on 11 May 2007:
“You will not find one Albanian cheering for these idiot bafoons ….”
Perhaps not, rexxy. It must be embarassing to have Albanians attack the US, a nation which – along with the UK and others, – has been so helpful to them.
Attacks on the Serbs and Albanian Christians are another matter. (See this linked article).
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w13.html
38 Comment by Misha on 11 May 2007:
“Before the latest rounds of the Balkan Wars, they could have lived anywhere in the country, from Croatia to Kosovo. Where they came from has not been determined.”
Clearly you did not grow up in Croatia. I can assure you that Albanians are looked upon with as much apprehension and distaste all across the former Yugoslavia as they are in southern Serbia. Finding an Albanian in Yugoslavia outside of Montenegro or certain parts of southern Serbia is a very rare sight.
I wish I had the URL but I read an interesting article a few weeks back about Macedonia’s predicament. Due to the media-popularity of the Kosovo debates, Macedonia has been a media afterthought. Since the break-up of Yugoslavia, Albanians have adopted simliar nationalist tendencies in western Macedonia as we have seen in Kosovo to the point where they have virtually completely ethnically cleansed (not necessarily by direct violence) over 40% of Macedonian territory. Because this has received such minimal coverage, Macedonia is receiving minimal international support while violent outbursts continue to be a common occurance at public events such as sports matches. The true tragedy of it is that Macedonians are such a unique and small nation and that they don’t have a patron state such as Kosovars have Serbia. Because of this we could potentially see the eradication of the Macedonian nation within the next quarter century.
39 Comment by Sasha on 11 May 2007:
Dear Mr. Fleming,
I’m absolutely thrilled to find that there are people like you inside the US. Due to the American politics here in Serbia, and trough out the world, i have though that all Americans are the same, but your article has brought me back the fate that there are people that are objective and actually care about the injustices happening in Kosovo.
Thank you for being honest and speaking out loud.
PS.
As a response to the previous comment, i would like to correct Mr.Misha, he said that no one knows how Muslims ended up in Kosovo. Well Serbian history teaches that during the second migration of Serbs to the North (in the 18th century), Sultan of the Ottoman empire(Serbia was one of the conquered countries for 500 years) placed Albanian cattle man in the empty Kosovo region. When Serbia was finally liberated, Serbs went back to Kosovo, but there were already too many Albanians there.
As a Christian minority in their own country they are constantly bullied by Kosovo Albanians. That is what the BBC and the CNN don’t report. They only report when Serbs react to these molestations.
40 Comment by Misha on 11 May 2007:
Sasha,
You misunderstood me, I merely stated that hypothesizing that the aforementioned terrorists could have been from any part of the former Yugoslavia is statistically unlikely. The only significant pockets of Albanian population within the former Yugoslavia were always southeastern Montenegro, western Macedonia and southern Serbia.
Also to add on to what Sasha posted, it is interesting to see Kosovo demographics after the First World War as Serbs and Albanians were at almost equal numbers. It’s very disturbing to see how this demographic has been altered through illegal immigration and fervent nationalism over the past century.
I’ve often wondered how a western nation-state would react to an immigrant minority demanding territorial independence. Imagine a Mexican population demanding a part of Texas become independent from the United States. How would the world react to a “Texas Liberation Army”?
41 Comment by TJF on 11 May 2007:
The discussion is getting a little out of hand, and that is mostly my fault. So far from being a Turkish import, Albanians are descendants from ancient inhabitants of the land. The ethno-history of Albania is very complicated. The territory now known as Albania was in ancient times settled by various peoples: Macedonians, who are essentially Greek, Illyrians (an Indo-European people), with admixtures of Dacians and other tribes. The Romans left their genes behind as did probably Goths, and later so did Slavs, Italians, and inevitably the Turks who conquered them. The language today reflects the mixture, though Illyrian dialects seem to predominate.
Albanian race theory is another matter. According to this fantasy–some of which has already appeared in the comments–Albanians are the only pure race in Europe, descended from ancient Illyrians, and with a blood-claim on the Illyrian homeland. They don’t hide their Nazist race theories. On the contrary, they can hardly keep quiet.
Albanians today represent the extreme version of the kidnap victim’s mentality. After submitting to the Turks, many become Muslims, who are now a very large majority. Even some Albanian Christians feel such strong race-identity that they feel kinship with Muslims whose ancestors spent their lives killing Christians. A similar attitude exists among some Bosnian Muslims. Naturally, not all Albanians are like this, not even Albanian Muslims, but too many are. Take the odious Jim Belushi, worst actor in the history of television. Jim raises money to help the genocide being perpetrated by Albanians in Kosovo.
Here is a link to an article by Julia Gorin, documenting some of Belushi’s antics: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/julia/gorin071805.php3I. I am told there is more. I have a friend with a tape of Mr. Belushi calling for slaughter. He has promised to send it to me.
As for ethnic jokes, I’m happy to hear or tell all sorts of ethnic jokes, including jokes at the expense of my people. If people don’t like it, they don’t have to listen, but I note that on the internet ethnic/race jokes come second only to jokes about sex. Everybody in the Balkans has a repertoire of jokes about everyone else, including their own people who live over the next hill. Albanians who profess to be shocked are lying. But that is a national trait of Albanian apologists.
When Albanians living in America quit defending and supporting terrorism and genocide, that will be the time to worry about their sensitivities. As it is, not one of the zanies writing in has even taken the trouble to deny what is being done.
42 Comment by Thomas Fleming on 11 May 2007:
Our anonymous Albanian reader, who lacks the courage to give his name, wants sources. He might start, for the ancient history, with JJ Wilkes’ Dalmatia (Cambridge UP). He says he wants to be left alone. Who has bothered him or any other Albanian? We wish to shed a little light on the terrorism, extortion, murder, and white-slavery being practiced by Kosovo Albanians. Even if truth about the Balkans were none of our business, the US intervention to give the Muslim terrorists a European base has made it our business, just as the plot to attack Ft. Dix has made it our business. If Albanians in the US do not wish to be scrutinized, they might consider going somewhere where violent crimes are tolerated, some place like Albania
But note the tone from Mr. anonymous with his warning against meddling. The next move will be to say he knows where I live or where my children go to school. These guys are always the same, cowards and bullies. No more from Mr. Anonymous until he supplies full identity including address, daytime telephone number, etc.
43 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 11 May 2007:
Isn’t it a cute coincidence that Pellumbi re-apperared here (let’s not say “has risen”) instead of Dr. Trifkovic’s collumn where he was a frequent obfuscator. Albanians as a nation came to Europe from the SouthEast corner of today’s Caspian Sea. The did have a small Christian presence prior to the 14th Century but their conversion rate to Islam was so predominant that even Turks adopted them as “their own” – At one time I worked as a translator/interpreter for the INS and saw a good number of Albanians with Turkish citizenship – of course they’ll go back to the “mother-ship”, I just wish they went sooner. From a linguistic point of view they are called Arnauts (among themselves also) which is a Turkish word meaning “stable boy” – the one who tends to horses. So Skanderbeg (whose both names were Greek more than Albanian – Georgiu Kastriyotis did fight Turks but that was an exception to the rule. It is with equal pride that during the WW2, many Albanians gladly joined the SS Waffen Skanderbeg division almost exclusively devoted to killing Christian Serbs in the region and under Albanian command. So with simple math you add it all up you have one improbable deed and some dozen or more inhuman acts. Sounds like Islam, smells like Islam, slithers like Islam – must be Islam.
44 Comment by Ronald Kyser on 11 May 2007:
Mr Cundiff wrote, “…this group, considered as a whole, is the source of all American music and dancing…”
Whoever is “the source of all American music and dancing”, at least for the last fifty years, owes the world a sincere apology.
45 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 12 May 2007:
Boo-hoo, people with PhD degrees can’t be fooled by Albanian crybabies, in spite of all the massive evidence of their brutality constant presence as the world’s most wanted ethnic group within Interpol – can all of that be only a coincidence or is somehow connected to Islam? I can not speculate. There was a question as to where do Albanians come from. In spite of their rose colored views of being “ilyrians” and original inhabitants of the region – Albanians are a nomadic tribe of Semitic origin from the South Eastern part of the Caspian Sea, North of today’s Jordan, West of today’s Turkey. It was only with the 7th century movement of Islam that Albanians first saw Europen land under their feet. The ancient Roman empire made an effort not to integrate such undesirables into the empire as it left the far Eastern border just at the Caspian sea – today’s Turkmestan – Uzbekistan. Since the Albreader asked for data – here is more data. I know the Albanian reaction to this will be a denial, upon denial, but there will be no historica facts, maps, sources for the denial. Here is a map from the 6th century: http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0600.htm
46 Comment by Sid Cundiff on 12 May 2007:
With respect to his remark on American music and dancing, I invite Mr. Kyser to name names and designate compositions so as to support his claim. Does he mean Steve Reich “Octet”, “Music for Large Ensemble”, and “Music for 18 Musicians”? Does he mean John Adams “Common Tones in Simple Time” and “Fearful Symmetries”? Does he mean Balanchine and Graham?
47 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 12 May 2007:
Indeed there is an ocassional Catholic or even an Othodox Christian Albanian (Mother Theresa was one – Catholic at onset) – however she spent most of her time in today’s Macedonia among the Eastern Orthodox Christians and it would be improbable that Eastern Orthodoxy left no influence on her subsequent life. Albanians, in the purest ethnical view belong to nomatic tribes of the Caspian Semitic people (not too different from the Azarbeijani, Iranians, Kurds, Eastern Turks. Within the Albanian language there is a lot more than a few Arabic words, Arabic mosques, etc. Georgiou Kastriotis (Skanderbeg) has been known to switch between Christianity and Islam several times and his ethnicity is unknown to this day. However the Waffen SS Skanderbeg is well documented and well known as an Albanian answer to (joining) Nazism, having murdered numerous Serbs, Gypsies, including priests and nuns. This is beyond rivalry and simple “animosity”. Islam only allowed a framework which condones killing of the kafiri “infidels”. So that Albanians are now “guilt free”, while pretending to be “victims”. Those same “victims” had been given their own university – in their own language, their own hospitals with their own doctors, etc. etc. What imaginary Serbian crimes are there in, or around Kosovo? The inflated Christiana Amanpour guestimates? From all those thousands of allegedly killed, the final count at one of the “mass graves of thousands” came down to 238 (two hunred thirty eight). Go figure, how well this propaganda works.
48 Comment by Ronald Kyser on 12 May 2007:
This piece was about Albania and Albanians, and it is impolite of us posters to digress, so I will pass up Mr Cundiff’s invitation. Except to note that the only Albanian “musician” and “dancer” Americans could readily name, John Belushi, is as representative as any of what our aural landscape has become, and reinforces my point that this country needs to apologize to the world for its music industry.
49 Comment by Mina Djuric on 12 May 2007:
Hilarious and undeniably true. I concur wholeheartedly that I obviously do not have an unbiased opinion regarding Albanian Muslims. However, having lived in many different countries in which there can be found Albanians (USA, Italy, France) it is not only Serbs who share the view that Albanian Muslims are, for the most part, a conflictive, dangerous peoples. An interesting fact — I read in a book that Albania is the first “truly atheist nation”, which, when put into context with the actions of these terrorists and of others in Albania and Kosovo, can be seen as true — what tenet of Islam allows for the mindframe with which, it seems, every Albanian is brought up ? The propagation of hate, a blatant disregard for religion (hence the burning of Orthodox churches), and an acceptance of the need to constantly create conflicts, be it over the current situation in Kosovo or something as trivial as a street fight in Queens (of which I have witnessed many). The Albanian Mob is now the biggest Mafia action on the East Coast, involving itself in drug trafficking and other illegal activities. This is not to say that all Albanians are like this — and yet, it seems to be ingrained in the culture, a certain acceptance of the aforementioned.
And as for Americans! There is nothing more to be said. Well done.
50 Comment by Allen Wilson on 13 May 2007:
I think the Albanians are mainly of Illyrian descent, though of course they obviously have a lot of admixture. The Illyrians were Europeans, belonged to the Indo-European race, and were as indigenous to Europe as a people can be. As for the Turkish element in their blood, even much of this may be European, since it has been claimed that modern Turks are mostly descended from oppressed and brutalised Byzantines who converted to Islam over the course of time after the Turkish conquest of central Anatolia, and most of these people were descended from European settlers who arrived in Anatolia in late prehistory. The invasive Central Asian Turkish element was comparatively small in numbers. Racially, Modern Turks can be thought of much like modern Russians, who are European but sometimes can have a Turkic element from Central asian invaders, just as many white Americans have an admixture of American Indian blood.
The Byzantines were far more civilised and cultured, and much better in their behaviour and sense of honour than Turks historically have been, so perhaps this illustrates what can happen to the character of a people who convert to Islam. If modern Turkey is mostly European racially, then Turkey serves as a good indication of what will happen to the rest of Europe if it goes Muslim.
Conversely, great cultural changes such as happened in Anatolia can be reversed, and if the Turks eventually were to convert to Christianity, perhaps Anatolia would become a heartland of Europe itself, and once again a first line of defence against Asiatic hordes, just as it once was. The same could happen with Albania. Don’t laugh, after all, for centuries, Anatolia was a citadel of European Christianity while Spain was a Muslim controlled backwater, an enclave of Islamic occupation in Europe itself, but then who eventually spread Christianity over the New World?.
51 Comment by TJF on 14 May 2007:
The Turkish ethnic mix is complicated. as it is in countries like Mexico or Hungary, by distinctions of class and region. I once calculated the bloodline of Mehmed the Conqeror, who turns out to be hardly Turkish at all. Today in the city I refuse to call anything but Constantinople, middle and upperclass Turks look and act very European. Many have fairer skins than people in the Balkans. On the other hand, one can see among the urban poor people who do not seem to have a drop of European blood, and I am told that peasants in central Anatolia are even more striking. The Turkish soldiers who invaded the Balkans 6 centuries ago would have been far more Turkish than their Sultans or their urban descendants today.
As for Albanians, there is no consensus on how Illyrian they are, but no part of the world that has been so fought over can maintain much ethnic or racial purity. The Albanian upperclasses during the Byzantine Empire deliberately forged marital alliances with Greeks and Slavs. The Albanian/Serb hostility is really the result of the Albanians’ conversion to Islam and even then, in the beginning, Slavic and Albanian Muslims worked together to raid, conquer, and oppress the Christians of Montenegro. My little history of Montenegro would tell you more than you want to know. At least that is what my wife says.
52 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 14 May 2007:
It is no longer a question whether or not Albanians are louts – they are. In addition to which they (Albanians) went out of their way to prove their qualities (lack thereof) over the last 100 years (ever since they were granted statehood).
When there are such negative social dynamics, we see exactly what we see with Albanians:
1. School bus hijacked – never-mind it was a reasonable grievance, over lack of pay. Really?
2. Thousands of women sold to slavery – never-mind Islam condones it. A little conflicting with Christian views?
3. Major drug trafficking operations including dominance over Sicilian mafia in certain parts of Europe – never-mind.
4. Consistently most frequently wanted felons and criminals since the inception of Interpol throughout Europe – never-mind. OK, we won’t mind.
5. Never at friendly terms with any of their neighbors (NEVER-EVER) – never-mind. You can’t be friends with everybody especially if there are only two states you are bordering.
6. The few “brain-washed Albanians” caught in this Fort Dix plot – never-mind they were brain washed? Yeah, right.
7. The only ally Albania ever had was China while it was at odds with Stalin and Khruschev – it was an artificial alliance which lasted only during the rule of Mao. Today’s foreign relations of China proper are probably strongest with Serbia and the United States.
8. If I had a school-age daughter I would (probably) try to avoid sending her to school taught by convicted rapists.
That is about how much Albania and all things Albanians must be avoided. It is not only a matter of Serbian Christians loosing some small portion of their ancestral lands – it is another way that Islam creeps into Europe through a back-door. It is exactly why Turkey is not having an easy time getting accepted into the EU. Europe does not want any cannibals, criminals, rapists, drug traffickers, smugglers, etc. That’s the crux of the current events which only caught a few thousand remaining Serbians at God’s mercy for the next few decades, as I am convinced that this probably unavoidable injustice will be reversed.
Aside from all the above Albanians have always chosen wrong sides in every European conflict, while they wanted independence from Turkey – they equally became Turkish allies and suppliers of scalps. The very word ARNAUT – used by today’s Albanians referring to themselves is of Turkish origin and means “stable boy-cleaner” “horse watcher, trainer”. There was also that other power during WW2 where Albanians jumped at the opportunity to wear a swastika.
Europe already had some rather unpleasant (not to say bloody) encounters with Islam (all of Spain, good Southern half of France, much of Austro-Hungary – today’s Croatia, Serbia, Greece – and they are not looking to re-learn the same lesson, but they figure “ahh, it’s only a few thousand Serbs, this will satisfy their appetite, so they won’t come to our country’s front door”. Dead wrong. They will come, and they are coming.
Don’t rejoice quite yet. Stalinism didn’t last forever. Ancient Roman conquest of Gaul didn’t last forever. Nazi Germany didn’t last the promised thousand years.
Historical facts indicate the Albanian population of Kosovo tripled during the communist rule of Tito. Tito couldn’t forego the need to thumb his nose at the Russians as his loans from IMF depended on British, German, French and American say. This resulted in Willy Brandt and Konrad Adenauer before him, being fooled while trying to minimize German reparations to Yugoslavia. Anthony Eden, Harold Macmillan, Harold Wilson equally being fooled by Tito’s alliance with (Nehru – the exception), Gamal Abdel Nasser, Jomo Kenyata, Kwame N’Krumah and similar characters of dubious background, with blood of their people on their hands. Tito’s other influence was to allow “slightly porous” borders with Albania as to thumb his nose at Enver Xoxcha the Maoist leader of Albania. He further announced that he would personally be a godfather to any family’s 10th child. For all of you learned American readers some of this may come as a surprise – but when it comes to Albania you simply learn that there is always some element of surprise and it can only go from bad to worse. These facts remain undisputed, and a matter of public knowledge and record. The danger or Islam is both real and imminent. Giving away a few hundred square miles in Southern Europe may not seem like huge concession to Islam but the repercussion will be seen and heard throughout Europe both, soon and fast.
That is the real story behind the “brain-washed few Albanians” planning the attack on Fort Dix. Therein is the danger of a society (entire Albania) not mature enough – neither politically nor socially to be a member of the United Nations and even remotely attempting to protect some “other” views, religions, nations. Nope, such a stand is mysteriously hidden within the present day Albanians regardless of where they live.
Indo-European yes, geographically closest to Azerbeijanis Eastern Turks, Kurds and Iranians (Persians). Here is a good guess who lived where in year 200 AD
http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0200.htm
53 Comment by Nebojsa Malic on 14 May 2007:
Let me point out for a moment something Dr. Fleming wrote a couple of comments ago: “The Albanian/Serb hostility is really the result of the Albanians’ conversion to Islam.”
Muslim Albanians became the fulcrum of Ottoman power in the region after the Serbs’s exodus from Kosovo in 1690 (and subsequently). As Serbia began the chain reaction of anti-Ottoman liberation movements in the 1800s, the Porte’s only allies in the Balkans were Albanians and Bosnian Muslims. Both were co-opted by Vienna after Austria-Hungary took over administration of Bosnia, Raska and Kosovo following the 1878 Treaty of Berlin. The League of Prizren argued for the formation of an Albanian entity within the Ottoman Empire, but was very pro-Ottoman in character.
Long story short, Albanian hatred of Serbs – as Christian “underpeople” – stems from the legacy of Islam and Ottoman rule, and was amplified by Austria-Hungary as part of its imperial agenda in the Balkans. This feeling was exploited by the Nazis, as well as the Communists, throughout the XX century, and most recently by NATO.
One may say that “the religion of Albanians is Albanianism,” as Albanians frequently do, but there is no escaping that Islam shaped “Albanianism,” particularly when it comes to Albanians’ relations to their Christian neighbors.
54 Comment by avni shala on 14 May 2007:
as always this is propaganda,you can not make responsible a whole country and/or people based on four people…
55 Comment by Spectacles on 14 May 2007:
One can say the same of Serbs, Avni. You can’t judge them all based on the actions of a few, but oh does the West try and try and try and try and it won’t stop trying until they get a good reality check.
56 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 15 May 2007:
Dear Avni,
Neither you, nor I are any good in mathematics. Let’s try to find a more accurate number of Albanian criminals by using unbiased and international sources – agreed? Good. Here we go.
Albanian criminals exceeding the modest number of four, according to the Austrian Interpol: MORINA Drilon, REXHEPAJ Nazif, THERQAJ Ardian, GECAJ Ded, Spahiu Leonard, Hajredini Gentjan, MALAJ Arlind, LATIFI Lulzim, GURGUROVCI Ibrahim, ZYMERI Rrahim, AMETAJ Sabit, FRROKU Lek
Of the 11.398 recruits listed for the Division, 9.275 were ascertained to be suitable to draft in the Waffen SS. Of those suitable to be drafted, 6.491 Albanian were chosen and inducted into the Skanderbeg Division. To this Albanian core were added veteran German troops primarily Reichdeutsche from Austria and Volkdeutcshe officers, NCOs, and enlisted men, transferred from the 7th SS Mountain Division “Prinz Eugen” which was stationed in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The Kosovo Albanian 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS “Skanderbeg” consisted in total of 8.500 – 9.000 men of all ranks. The 6.491 Shqiptar recruits were assembled at depots in Kosovo where the formation and the training of the division began.
And yes, there are those four you mentioned as well. My math is often poor, but it seems to me we have counted over 10,000 Albanians with Serbian blood on their hands – wouldn’t you say?
I am not entirely sure that all the above can be called “propaganda” and it seems to include well over 10,000 people (as opposed to your count showing 4 people).
57 Comment by MAKEDON on 15 May 2007:
I come from a right wing Greek town on the border region, 200 years ago our people were slaughtered in Albania itself, those that fought and survived moved South. The historical accounts given by my family complement NGL Hammonds book Epiros. We came from the heartland of modern Albania, where Greeks lived, called Mati, the fertile valley.
Greeks also built a few great cities, this is in ancient times, and a major Mycenaen city has been uncovered in Albania as well.
During the last 100 years Greeks have been persecuted in Albania, and Greeks are still denied their rights, threats and intimidation are still employed.
The Greek government does not take a hard line, they betrayed the people when national borders were established and betrayed them again to communist crimes.
The word is getting out.
Thanks for Chronicles
58 Comment by Rexxy on 15 May 2007:
what a circus show of misinformation from serbian rapist ….
and now the grek with the name of Makedon shows up to put the the lid on the pot , the balkan Alliance of early 1900’s is alive and still wants to rape the native people of the balkans
59 Comment by Rexxy on 15 May 2007:
*you Serbian killed how many people in the balkan in the last decade or so ..??
*you damaged how many Catholic Churches ??
*You raped your own slavic cousins ?
*You gave Iraq services and parts ?
*you danced on 9-11 ?
60 Comment by Bob Partisan on 15 May 2007:
Rexxy, answer me one question. Knowing that your a man of blatant honestly I only hope your answer will be in character.
Which ethnic group in the Balkans has suffered the most in terms of population loss (that is genocide, ethnic cleansing, whatever you want to call it), loss of property, loss of basic human rights and forced into conversion in the past 100 years?
Since 1907 to today. It’s not that hard.
61 Comment by Rexxy on 15 May 2007:
The native people of the Balkans of course ….
62 Comment by Bob Partisan on 15 May 2007:
You refuse to answer because it works against your anti-Serbian agenda.
Sorry Rexxy, the PR deal with Rudder Finn Inc (a public relations firm which was hired for services with the governments of Bosnia and Croatia in the early 90’s, and Kosovar Albanians in 1999 worth millions of dollars – which noeone really bothered to investigate)expired a few years ago, noone really believes in the Albanian sob stories anymore. The fog of war is slowly and surely starting to lift.
63 Comment by Rexxy on 15 May 2007:
I like your name Bob ….
the “Partisan” part of it remind me of all the Yugoslavian Albanian Partisans that were killed by Serbian…besides the 10,000 that only Albania sent up north to aid .
and I am not anti-serbian …I am anti-wrong
…………….
and you are using this biased article by whatever his name is to do your own little serbian propogandovich ….you might as well ..uh ?…opportunity is here for you …. grasp it …grasp it while you can …its not like the grasping of hay that you usually been getting in the last few decades….its also a good day for serbian smokescreen as well …the winds are just right ..
oh how easy it is for you to forget the last havoc you unleashed in the balkans ….
let alone the past ones of many years ago ….
64 Comment by Nano84 on 15 May 2007:
Most of the people in EU know that what Serbs did towards Albanians during the war is unacceptable. The fact is that the Albanians had to do something to protect themselves because first of all Albanians were in their country. No matter what anyone says Kosova was part of Albania if you go back just 50 years ago. What about Srebrenica what do you call that. I bet if there was no evidence servians would be more then happy to deny it. Children womens husbands fathers were killed in Kosova during the war.
65 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 15 May 2007:
It’s time for the webmaster to end this collumn. Albanian propagandists are invoking their rights granted to them by the Nazi Italy and Germany – that’s the only answer to the question what was Albania/Kosovo 50 years ago. It was struggling to get rid of the Nazi evidence and Nazi uniforms your fathers and cousins wore a few yaers prior – that’s what it was. The constant propensity towards their only two neighbors (Greeks and Serbs) is filled with such hatred that any discussion becomes quickly a monologue filled with lies, misdirection and folly. Thank God, that there is a sentence: Deeds speak louder than words.
With all the millions of Albanians that were killed by the evil Serbians how is it possible that the population of Kosovar Albanians would double from 1.3 million to nearly 3 million today? Granted a lot of them go back and forth to Albania proper over the porous borders, but the numbers alone do not entirely make sense.
Among the “8000 Muslims killed by Serbians” in Srebrenica, I think that only about 386 were identified with some degree of certainty – where did the 7.5 thousand dead bodies go? Unless that number was also “slightly inflated” by the Islamofascist propaganda.
66 Comment by TJF on 15 May 2007:
” No matter what anyone says Kosova was part of Albania if you go back just 50 years ago. ”
The person who said this is either an utter fool or a bare-faced liar. Who could possibly think that all Americans are so stupid that they cannot look up a fact in an encyclopedia. To confine the matter only to the 20th century, Serbia liberated Kosovo from the Turks and their Muslim allies in 1912 and it became part of what was later known as Yugoslavia after WWI.
When the conversation descends to this level, it is time to end it.
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