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	<title>Comments on: I Gave it Up for Lent</title>
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	<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/</link>
	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: Fr. Steven Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197739</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Steven Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mr. Van Sant @ #24  Yes, the rite of forgiveness on Cheesefare/Forgiveness Sunday is very powerful.  Every parish should do it. In my old Russian parish, we did it with a full prostration to each person.  The Greeks don&#039;t like it because they can&#039;t bear humbling themselves in front of others, which is a tremendous spiritual problem.  

Mr. Check @ #19   Mr. Davis&#039;s lifelong sympathy for Catholicism, as well as the support he received during his Time of Troubles from many Roman Catholic religious and clergy  - including Pius IX - is well-known.  Too bad he never had the opportunity to be exposed to Orthodoxy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Van Sant @ #24  Yes, the rite of forgiveness on Cheesefare/Forgiveness Sunday is very powerful.  Every parish should do it. In my old Russian parish, we did it with a full prostration to each person.  The Greeks don't like it because they can't bear humbling themselves in front of others, which is a tremendous spiritual problem.  </p>
<p>Mr. Check @ #19   Mr. Davis's lifelong sympathy for Catholicism, as well as the support he received during his Time of Troubles from many Roman Catholic religious and clergy  - including Pius IX - is well-known.  Too bad he never had the opportunity to be exposed to Orthodoxy.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew G Van Sant</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197735</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew G Van Sant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 03:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197735</guid>
		<description>Fr. Allen @16: I now attend a local Greek Orthodox Church and I get the feeling from the Pastor&#039;s comments that most of those attending do not keep the fasts.  Previously, I attended a smaller Antiochian Church where almost the entire congregation made an effort to keep the fasts and we practiced many of the other Orthodox traditions.  Especially moving was the forgiveness ceremony during Vespers on Forgiveness Sunday (Cheesefare Sunday - the Sunday before lent) during which each person present asked every other person present to forgive them for any offenses that they committed during the previous year.  This was done one-on-one.  One person would start by facing the pastor and they would ask each other in turn for forgiveness.  The person would typically say to the Pastor, &quot;Please forgive me for offending you in any way during the past year.&quot;  The Pastor would respond, &quot;I forgive you; please forgive me for offending you in any way during the previous year.&quot;  The person would respond, &quot;I forgive you.&quot;  The first person would then move to the Pastor&#039;s right to form a line and the next person would exchange forgiveness with the Pastor and then move to the first person to exchange forgiveness while the third person would do the same with the Pastor.  As each person passed down the continuously growing line, another person would join the procession, starting with the Pastor.  After exchanging forgiveness with the last person in the line that formed to the Pastor&#039;s right, you joined as the last person in the line.  This process would continue until you had received and extended forgiveness from/to every other person present.  Many would be in tears because of the relief experienced in forgiving and being forgiven.  After doing this year after year the church members were more cooperative and forgiving with each other.  They became a close knit community of worshipers.  Here is a website that has some information on Forgiveness Sunday. 

http://lent.goarch.org/forgiveness/learn/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Allen @16: I now attend a local Greek Orthodox Church and I get the feeling from the Pastor's comments that most of those attending do not keep the fasts.  Previously, I attended a smaller Antiochian Church where almost the entire congregation made an effort to keep the fasts and we practiced many of the other Orthodox traditions.  Especially moving was the forgiveness ceremony during Vespers on Forgiveness Sunday (Cheesefare Sunday - the Sunday before lent) during which each person present asked every other person present to forgive them for any offenses that they committed during the previous year.  This was done one-on-one.  One person would start by facing the pastor and they would ask each other in turn for forgiveness.  The person would typically say to the Pastor, "Please forgive me for offending you in any way during the past year."  The Pastor would respond, "I forgive you; please forgive me for offending you in any way during the previous year."  The person would respond, "I forgive you."  The first person would then move to the Pastor's right to form a line and the next person would exchange forgiveness with the Pastor and then move to the first person to exchange forgiveness while the third person would do the same with the Pastor.  As each person passed down the continuously growing line, another person would join the procession, starting with the Pastor.  After exchanging forgiveness with the last person in the line that formed to the Pastor's right, you joined as the last person in the line.  This process would continue until you had received and extended forgiveness from/to every other person present.  Many would be in tears because of the relief experienced in forgiving and being forgiven.  After doing this year after year the church members were more cooperative and forgiving with each other.  They became a close knit community of worshipers.  Here is a website that has some information on Forgiveness Sunday. </p>
<p><a href="http://lent.goarch.org/forgiveness/learn/" rel="nofollow">http://lent.goarch.org/forgiveness/learn/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Check</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197672</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Check</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197672</guid>
		<description>Dear Art--

Thank you for your kind words and good insights.  I am proposing only a return to the somewhat more rigorous rules for fast and abstinence as they appeared in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, and as they were clarified in 1949, and before they were eased by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in 1966.  You can find an excellent description of these in the front of the Roman Catholic Daily Missal printed by Angelus Press.  I was born in 1966.  I did not grow up with these observances, but, as I wrote in the piece, one of the (many) merits of them came into clearer focus for me after discussing Americanism on the radio with my friends at Catholic Answers.

I am a supporter of private mortifications.  I have to commend my Opus Dei formation in this regard, because, like the Little Flower, Josemaria Escriva (and Francis de Sales before both of them) encouraged little sacrifices: getting out of bed when the alarm goes off, not leaving dishes in the sink at the end of the day, skipping desert, holding your peace, eating half of dinner, etc.  I am not really an enthusiast for web-based &quot;communities&quot; but there is one in which husbands fast once a week for their marriages.  Things like this are of great value in the economy of grace.

My point about the common practices, however, was the sense of Catholic solidarity they reinforce.  There is this very sense in the Fr. Feeney essay, &quot;Fish on Fridays,&quot; which is why I quoted it, his particular difficulties with the Holy See, notwithstanding.

Mr. Jacobi, if you come to our Summer School, I&#039;ll see if I can&#039;t scare up a Hershey bar for you, though I have the sense you appreciate some variety beyond that.  In the meantime, take the money you are not spending on chocolate and send it to Chronicles!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Art--</p>
<p>Thank you for your kind words and good insights.  I am proposing only a return to the somewhat more rigorous rules for fast and abstinence as they appeared in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, and as they were clarified in 1949, and before they were eased by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in 1966.  You can find an excellent description of these in the front of the Roman Catholic Daily Missal printed by Angelus Press.  I was born in 1966.  I did not grow up with these observances, but, as I wrote in the piece, one of the (many) merits of them came into clearer focus for me after discussing Americanism on the radio with my friends at Catholic Answers.</p>
<p>I am a supporter of private mortifications.  I have to commend my Opus Dei formation in this regard, because, like the Little Flower, Josemaria Escriva (and Francis de Sales before both of them) encouraged little sacrifices: getting out of bed when the alarm goes off, not leaving dishes in the sink at the end of the day, skipping desert, holding your peace, eating half of dinner, etc.  I am not really an enthusiast for web-based "communities" but there is one in which husbands fast once a week for their marriages.  Things like this are of great value in the economy of grace.</p>
<p>My point about the common practices, however, was the sense of Catholic solidarity they reinforce.  There is this very sense in the Fr. Feeney essay, "Fish on Fridays," which is why I quoted it, his particular difficulties with the Holy See, notwithstanding.</p>
<p>Mr. Jacobi, if you come to our Summer School, I'll see if I can't scare up a Hershey bar for you, though I have the sense you appreciate some variety beyond that.  In the meantime, take the money you are not spending on chocolate and send it to Chronicles!</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197671</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197671</guid>
		<description>#20 Art &quot;I like the idea (to an extent), but wonder what the guidance is from the Church?&quot;

Art,
  I always assumed the tradition of sack cloth and ashes came from Jona and Nineveh. After the Incarnation,however, it was affirmed that it came earlier when the prophet said, &quot;Take me forth and cast me into the sea, for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.&quot; This is probably why humble individualism has never been nearly as popular in the world as the more rugged variety. Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#20 Art "I like the idea (to an extent), but wonder what the guidance is from the Church?"</p>
<p>Art,<br />
  I always assumed the tradition of sack cloth and ashes came from Jona and Nineveh. After the Incarnation,however, it was affirmed that it came earlier when the prophet said, "Take me forth and cast me into the sea, for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you." This is probably why humble individualism has never been nearly as popular in the world as the more rugged variety. Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Gilbert Jacobi</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197667</link>
		<dc:creator>Gilbert Jacobi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197667</guid>
		<description>Anyone who thinks giving up chocolate entails less sacrifice than giving up booze obviously:

	I.	Is insensible to the finer things in life

	II.	 Is innocent of anything more than intoxication&#039;s first chaste flirtations</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who thinks giving up chocolate entails less sacrifice than giving up booze obviously:</p>
<p>	I.	Is insensible to the finer things in life</p>
<p>	II.	 Is innocent of anything more than intoxication's first chaste flirtations</p>
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		<title>By: Art</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197664</link>
		<dc:creator>Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197664</guid>
		<description>Great article, and I really appreciate the notion of sacrifice as a common Body.  I only wish an example had been provided as to how Mr. Check would propose Lenten sacrifices to be exercised.  What exactly would he propose?  Is the family supposed to come up with family sacrifices?  Is the parish priest supposed to announce a common sacrifice amongst the parishioners?  I&#039;m trying to understand how this would work?  And what is the origin of this practice?  Has it been proposed in an encyclical at some point?  Or is this something that Mr. Check grew up with, perhaps, in his local community?  I like the idea (to an extent), but wonder what the guidance is from the Church?

As for individualism, I too agree that America has gone overboard on viewing themselves as individuals rather than people that make up the Body of Christ, the Church.  But I think it is also inherent that humans make individual choices.  Sometimes that choice will be to join a group in common sacrifice.  At other times it may not be.  St. Therese united her most mundane daily chores to the suffering of Christ.  That&#039;s quite individualistic.  So I don&#039;t think that merely being an individual is the problem.  More to the point, it&#039;s NOT seeing ourselves as part of the Body of Christ (the Church).  We are, indeed, both individuals and members of the Church.  After all, God did give us individual souls with free will, and a universal Church in which to satisfy our desire to be with Him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, and I really appreciate the notion of sacrifice as a common Body.  I only wish an example had been provided as to how Mr. Check would propose Lenten sacrifices to be exercised.  What exactly would he propose?  Is the family supposed to come up with family sacrifices?  Is the parish priest supposed to announce a common sacrifice amongst the parishioners?  I'm trying to understand how this would work?  And what is the origin of this practice?  Has it been proposed in an encyclical at some point?  Or is this something that Mr. Check grew up with, perhaps, in his local community?  I like the idea (to an extent), but wonder what the guidance is from the Church?</p>
<p>As for individualism, I too agree that America has gone overboard on viewing themselves as individuals rather than people that make up the Body of Christ, the Church.  But I think it is also inherent that humans make individual choices.  Sometimes that choice will be to join a group in common sacrifice.  At other times it may not be.  St. Therese united her most mundane daily chores to the suffering of Christ.  That's quite individualistic.  So I don't think that merely being an individual is the problem.  More to the point, it's NOT seeing ourselves as part of the Body of Christ (the Church).  We are, indeed, both individuals and members of the Church.  After all, God did give us individual souls with free will, and a universal Church in which to satisfy our desire to be with Him.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Check</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197661</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Check</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197661</guid>
		<description>Father--

You&#039;d better not tell her that Jefferson Davis wore a scapular!
(I suspect she already knows.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Father--</p>
<p>You'd better not tell her that Jefferson Davis wore a scapular!<br />
(I suspect she already knows.)</p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Steven Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197659</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Steven Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197659</guid>
		<description>Of course, this is where I read it. Thank you. By the way, Felicity Allen (no relation) is Eastern Orthodox, according to Franklin Sanders, with whom I once discussed the Davis biography.  I shall not tell my young friend, however, fearing that he may bombard her also with Sigrid Undset bios of RC saints, green scapulars, and Miraculous Medals.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, this is where I read it. Thank you. By the way, Felicity Allen (no relation) is Eastern Orthodox, according to Franklin Sanders, with whom I once discussed the Davis biography.  I shall not tell my young friend, however, fearing that he may bombard her also with Sigrid Undset bios of RC saints, green scapulars, and Miraculous Medals.  <img src='http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Check</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197654</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Check</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197654</guid>
		<description>Father Allen--

In the preface to JEFFERSON DAVIS, UNCONQUERABLE HEART, Felicity Allen writes that it was Undset who encouraged Hudson Strode to write his (thee volume?) biography.  Strode&#039;s version makes extensive use of previously unused correspondence (50,000 pieces by Allen&#039;s account).  Undset developed an interest in Davis while she was living in America.  I seem to think the Allen book was once reviewed in Chronicles, but I am not positive.

Professor Wilson, if he is following this thread, might lend his expertise.

I have written a very short reader review of the Catherine of Siena hagiography at Amazon.  Please tell your admirable and noble friend that he can now buy you a copy!

http://www.amazon.com/Catherine-Siena-Sigrid-Undset/product-reviews/1586174088/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&amp;showViewpoints=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Father Allen--</p>
<p>In the preface to JEFFERSON DAVIS, UNCONQUERABLE HEART, Felicity Allen writes that it was Undset who encouraged Hudson Strode to write his (thee volume?) biography.  Strode's version makes extensive use of previously unused correspondence (50,000 pieces by Allen's account).  Undset developed an interest in Davis while she was living in America.  I seem to think the Allen book was once reviewed in Chronicles, but I am not positive.</p>
<p>Professor Wilson, if he is following this thread, might lend his expertise.</p>
<p>I have written a very short reader review of the Catherine of Siena hagiography at Amazon.  Please tell your admirable and noble friend that he can now buy you a copy!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Catherine-Siena-Sigrid-Undset/product-reviews/1586174088/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&#038;showViewpoints=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Catherine-Siena-Sigrid-Undset/product-reviews/1586174088/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&#038;showViewpoints=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Fr. Steven Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2010/02/22/i-gave-it-up-for-lent/comment-page-1/#comment-197643</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr. Steven Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 04:25:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3809#comment-197643</guid>
		<description>#13 Mr. Van Zant

  Marking all the Orthodox fast days this year is especially eye-opening, since this is the earliest Pascha (Easter) will fall in our lifetimes - 22 March OS.  The last time it was this early was in 1915.  Because of the extremely early Easter, the Fast of the Holy Apostles will last 42 days - 18 May OS through 28 June OS!   Of course, many Orthodox do not keep the fasts properly or at all, but, as your post implies, at least the ancient norms are still taught by the Church.  Also, many DO keep the fasts.  Last week, I buried a Romanian lady who, from childhood until she was into her late &#039;70&#039;s kept the strict fast on Wednesdays and Fridays throughout the year, eating only one lenten meal after three in the afternoon. She learned this from her parents, with whom she walked for six miles one way to go to church every Sunday. Some of us have known monks who literally lived on Holy Communion and water throughout Great Lent.  &quot;Where God so wills, the order of nature is overruled.&quot; 

#9 Mr. Check  

Some Romanians still live the life Andrew Lytle&#039;s essay celebrates, particularly in traditional villages in Moldavia which are still both agrarian and influenced heavily by the monastic ethos.  I often threaten my wife with a plan to retire in Iasi, so that we can live within the vicinity of real people, and in a place that is really a place, as Walker Percy would say.  

Re Sigrid Undset and St. Catherine of Siena:  A touchingly zealous young ultramontane friend of mine threatens to give me this very biography, claiming that it will convert me to Catholicism.  I doubt it; it does, however, sound like a wonderful book.  

I seem to recall that Sigrid Undset was an admirer of Jefferson Davis.  Does anyone know anything about this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#13 Mr. Van Zant</p>
<p>  Marking all the Orthodox fast days this year is especially eye-opening, since this is the earliest Pascha (Easter) will fall in our lifetimes - 22 March OS.  The last time it was this early was in 1915.  Because of the extremely early Easter, the Fast of the Holy Apostles will last 42 days - 18 May OS through 28 June OS!   Of course, many Orthodox do not keep the fasts properly or at all, but, as your post implies, at least the ancient norms are still taught by the Church.  Also, many DO keep the fasts.  Last week, I buried a Romanian lady who, from childhood until she was into her late '70's kept the strict fast on Wednesdays and Fridays throughout the year, eating only one lenten meal after three in the afternoon. She learned this from her parents, with whom she walked for six miles one way to go to church every Sunday. Some of us have known monks who literally lived on Holy Communion and water throughout Great Lent.  "Where God so wills, the order of nature is overruled." </p>
<p>#9 Mr. Check  </p>
<p>Some Romanians still live the life Andrew Lytle's essay celebrates, particularly in traditional villages in Moldavia which are still both agrarian and influenced heavily by the monastic ethos.  I often threaten my wife with a plan to retire in Iasi, so that we can live within the vicinity of real people, and in a place that is really a place, as Walker Percy would say.  </p>
<p>Re Sigrid Undset and St. Catherine of Siena:  A touchingly zealous young ultramontane friend of mine threatens to give me this very biography, claiming that it will convert me to Catholicism.  I doubt it; it does, however, sound like a wonderful book.  </p>
<p>I seem to recall that Sigrid Undset was an admirer of Jefferson Davis.  Does anyone know anything about this?</p>
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