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	<title>Comments on: U.S. Hypocrisy Astonishes the World</title>
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	<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/</link>
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		<title>By: Nicholas MOSES</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-2/#comment-193541</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas MOSES</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 06:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193541</guid>
		<description>@48:  I think where we disagree is in the &quot;greater good.&quot;  I think that shocking photos might (hypothetically--see below) end one war in a short term but will ultimately do nothing to stop the cultural decay that gives way to total wars and may indeed accelerate it.

@49:  Mr. Higdon, I fully stand behind all the criticism Sheehan has thrown against Bush, Obama, Pelosi and others, all of which is well-merited and well-directed.  What I take issue with is her conduct throughout this whole thing, especially as a wife and mother.  I don&#039;t want to pass judgment on her private affairs, but I will say that her husband apparently agrees with me, publically.  She is setting a poor example.

Just to drive the point home:  as for long-term good, much of her following has now abandoned her for the deity Obama&#039;s amen corner.  I submit that whatever horrifying photos are published, the 2012 election will pass with many U.S. forces still in action in hostile lands on a futile mission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@48:  I think where we disagree is in the "greater good."  I think that shocking photos might (hypothetically--see below) end one war in a short term but will ultimately do nothing to stop the cultural decay that gives way to total wars and may indeed accelerate it.</p>
<p>@49:  Mr. Higdon, I fully stand behind all the criticism Sheehan has thrown against Bush, Obama, Pelosi and others, all of which is well-merited and well-directed.  What I take issue with is her conduct throughout this whole thing, especially as a wife and mother.  I don't want to pass judgment on her private affairs, but I will say that her husband apparently agrees with me, publically.  She is setting a poor example.</p>
<p>Just to drive the point home:  as for long-term good, much of her following has now abandoned her for the deity Obama's amen corner.  I submit that whatever horrifying photos are published, the 2012 election will pass with many U.S. forces still in action in hostile lands on a futile mission.</p>
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		<title>By: Gilbert Jacobi</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193458</link>
		<dc:creator>Gilbert Jacobi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193458</guid>
		<description>Even if the claim that government suppression of graphic images helps to &quot;stem opposition to its wars&quot; were true, a dubious assumption, given the public&#039;s massive exposure to gore by now in such movies as &quot;Saving Private Ryan&quot; and video games, it does not excuse the opposite behavior.  
The only morally correct course is to give the families of wounded and dead soldiers the time to get prepared before being exposed to photos such as this. When I saw Joshua Bernard&#039;s photo, a photo which, but for the grace of God and one step to the left or right, might have been taken of me on trails I trod long ago, my stomach churned and I had to look away.  If it can produce such a reaction in me, one who might be expected to be somewhat hardened, there can be no doubt that this kind of photo, if happened upon unexpectedly by a loved one, has the potential to cause life-threatening reactions such as heart failure.  

Where are those who took me to task with the injunction that no good may come of evil deeds when I defended a use of torture if the fate of a city should hang in the balance?  Those who defend the use of these photos to sway public opinion are approving of the psychological torture of the families.   	

As for the hypocrisy referred to in Roberts&#039; title, I see few better examples of it than in this former government official&#039;s rush to defend the fair female reporter who took the photo, in order to indulge his tastes for high dudgeon and attacking present government officials he dislikes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if the claim that government suppression of graphic images helps to "stem opposition to its wars" were true, a dubious assumption, given the public's massive exposure to gore by now in such movies as "Saving Private Ryan" and video games, it does not excuse the opposite behavior.<br />
The only morally correct course is to give the families of wounded and dead soldiers the time to get prepared before being exposed to photos such as this. When I saw Joshua Bernard's photo, a photo which, but for the grace of God and one step to the left or right, might have been taken of me on trails I trod long ago, my stomach churned and I had to look away.  If it can produce such a reaction in me, one who might be expected to be somewhat hardened, there can be no doubt that this kind of photo, if happened upon unexpectedly by a loved one, has the potential to cause life-threatening reactions such as heart failure.  </p>
<p>Where are those who took me to task with the injunction that no good may come of evil deeds when I defended a use of torture if the fate of a city should hang in the balance?  Those who defend the use of these photos to sway public opinion are approving of the psychological torture of the families.   	</p>
<p>As for the hypocrisy referred to in Roberts' title, I see few better examples of it than in this former government official's rush to defend the fair female reporter who took the photo, in order to indulge his tastes for high dudgeon and attacking present government officials he dislikes.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirt Higdon</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193446</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirt Higdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193446</guid>
		<description>While there are many things on which I might disagree with Cindy Sheehan, her relentless opposition to the wars of the US is not one of them.  She has been principled in her opposition to both Bush and Obama because of their militarism.  If more mothers of those who have died were like her, we might already have been out of these evil and destructive wars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While there are many things on which I might disagree with Cindy Sheehan, her relentless opposition to the wars of the US is not one of them.  She has been principled in her opposition to both Bush and Obama because of their militarism.  If more mothers of those who have died were like her, we might already have been out of these evil and destructive wars.</p>
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		<title>By: S.L. Toddard</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193442</link>
		<dc:creator>S.L. Toddard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193442</guid>
		<description>&quot;Let’s suppose, for example, and if you’ll pardon the sensationalism, the soldier lying on the gurney happened to be your younger brother. Would you like the photos to be published in your hometown newspaper where your mother may well pick it up?&quot;

No, I personally would not &quot;like&quot; it.  That&#039;s irrelevant.  What matters is that showing the true costs of war more accurately might cause less American boys to be killed.  The death is far more of a crime, and far more painful for the family, than the picture.  If those pictures can prevent more of those deaths...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Let’s suppose, for example, and if you’ll pardon the sensationalism, the soldier lying on the gurney happened to be your younger brother. Would you like the photos to be published in your hometown newspaper where your mother may well pick it up?"</p>
<p>No, I personally would not "like" it.  That's irrelevant.  What matters is that showing the true costs of war more accurately might cause less American boys to be killed.  The death is far more of a crime, and far more painful for the family, than the picture.  If those pictures can prevent more of those deaths...</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas MOSES</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193438</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas MOSES</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193438</guid>
		<description>@44:  A couple of points.  First, although a large sector of the American public continues to support this indefensible war, a majority has swung at least nominally against it, so I&#039;m not sure the characterization of the public as &quot;exceedingly favorable&quot; any longer fits.  It might have been more relevant at the beginning of the Iraq war, but even then there are difficulties.  Let&#039;s suppose, for example, and if you&#039;ll pardon the sensationalism, the soldier lying on the gurney happened to be your younger brother.  Would you like the photos to be published in your hometown newspaper where your mother may well pick it up?  In the past, there was a very real possibility that she would fall to pieces; in our times, there is a very real possibility that she might turn into a second Cindy Sheehan.  (If you cannot see what is wrong with that latter scenario, just have a look at her platform and campaign photos from 2008.)

There are many things wrong with American society, many reasons why this war was allowed to happen and why we can expect to see further blunders until a massive catastrophe snaps us out of it.  Resorting to shock effect for a quick &quot;end to this war&quot; is akin to placing a band-aid over a deep gash on the leg and will resolve nothing in the long run except eventually desensitize us entirely to suffering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@44:  A couple of points.  First, although a large sector of the American public continues to support this indefensible war, a majority has swung at least nominally against it, so I'm not sure the characterization of the public as "exceedingly favorable" any longer fits.  It might have been more relevant at the beginning of the Iraq war, but even then there are difficulties.  Let's suppose, for example, and if you'll pardon the sensationalism, the soldier lying on the gurney happened to be your younger brother.  Would you like the photos to be published in your hometown newspaper where your mother may well pick it up?  In the past, there was a very real possibility that she would fall to pieces; in our times, there is a very real possibility that she might turn into a second Cindy Sheehan.  (If you cannot see what is wrong with that latter scenario, just have a look at her platform and campaign photos from 2008.)</p>
<p>There are many things wrong with American society, many reasons why this war was allowed to happen and why we can expect to see further blunders until a massive catastrophe snaps us out of it.  Resorting to shock effect for a quick "end to this war" is akin to placing a band-aid over a deep gash on the leg and will resolve nothing in the long run except eventually desensitize us entirely to suffering.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193417</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193417</guid>
		<description>re #45:

&quot;Actually, I don’t believe that is true. Newspapers always publish names and pictures of alleged perpetrators before trials, so the fair trial argument is not valid. Whatever scruples media men do possess seem to prevent them from picturing victim’s faces out of concern for the victims.&quot;

  Fair enough, though a victim isn&#039;t a perpetrator.  As Mr. Toddard pointed out in his post #44, a non sequitur isn&#039;t a valid argument, which was also my point in response to #41, though I seem to have expressed it badly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re #45:</p>
<p>"Actually, I don’t believe that is true. Newspapers always publish names and pictures of alleged perpetrators before trials, so the fair trial argument is not valid. Whatever scruples media men do possess seem to prevent them from picturing victim’s faces out of concern for the victims."</p>
<p>  Fair enough, though a victim isn't a perpetrator.  As Mr. Toddard pointed out in his post #44, a non sequitur isn't a valid argument, which was also my point in response to #41, though I seem to have expressed it badly.</p>
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		<title>By: R. McCabe</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193413</link>
		<dc:creator>R. McCabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:44:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193413</guid>
		<description>@42,&quot;This isn’t true. Pictures of rape victims aren’t published to avoid influencing of public opinion prior to an arrest and/or trial.&quot;

Actually, I don&#039;t believe that is true.  Newspapers always publish names and pictures of alleged perpetrators before trials, so the fair trial argument is not valid.  Whatever scruples media men do possess seem to prevent them from picturing victim&#039;s faces out of concern for the victims.

That poor girl in CA, Jaycee Duggard, has had her name and picture as a youth posted but no current pictures.  Her captors&#039; images have been everywhere.

@43, 44, you guys are perhaps as close as you will get in the gray area of civility vs. truth.  To me, if we have laid to rest the question of respect for individuals and are just talking abstractly of appropriateness or effectiveness of showing graphic images to achieve some result, I am reminded that man is primarily a social creature.  And we have the nasty habit of killing messengers or at least associating them with their message, thus tuning them out if we don&#039;t like what we see.

If I meet someone and the first words out of my mouth were, &quot;Nice to meet you, you are really fat.&quot;  I may have spoken the truth; it may be an important truth, and it may or not be a truth they already know, but I have lost all connection with that person.  They did not ask me for an opinion, yet I hit them with it anyway.  That is far different from answering someone&#039;s question honestly.

It is an important thing to be ready to prove the truth if it is being denied.  It is another to assume to know why others believe what they believe and how to change those beliefs.

I tend to think resorting to graphic images is a shortcut.  It is much harder and slower to convince someone that there is life in the womb or bad policies behind unjust wars (all wars are violent).  It is much harder to pray consistently.  But if you do, you have perhaps importantly converted someone rather than spread shock or created/galvanized an opponent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@42,"This isn’t true. Pictures of rape victims aren’t published to avoid influencing of public opinion prior to an arrest and/or trial."</p>
<p>Actually, I don't believe that is true.  Newspapers always publish names and pictures of alleged perpetrators before trials, so the fair trial argument is not valid.  Whatever scruples media men do possess seem to prevent them from picturing victim's faces out of concern for the victims.</p>
<p>That poor girl in CA, Jaycee Duggard, has had her name and picture as a youth posted but no current pictures.  Her captors' images have been everywhere.</p>
<p>@43, 44, you guys are perhaps as close as you will get in the gray area of civility vs. truth.  To me, if we have laid to rest the question of respect for individuals and are just talking abstractly of appropriateness or effectiveness of showing graphic images to achieve some result, I am reminded that man is primarily a social creature.  And we have the nasty habit of killing messengers or at least associating them with their message, thus tuning them out if we don't like what we see.</p>
<p>If I meet someone and the first words out of my mouth were, "Nice to meet you, you are really fat."  I may have spoken the truth; it may be an important truth, and it may or not be a truth they already know, but I have lost all connection with that person.  They did not ask me for an opinion, yet I hit them with it anyway.  That is far different from answering someone's question honestly.</p>
<p>It is an important thing to be ready to prove the truth if it is being denied.  It is another to assume to know why others believe what they believe and how to change those beliefs.</p>
<p>I tend to think resorting to graphic images is a shortcut.  It is much harder and slower to convince someone that there is life in the womb or bad policies behind unjust wars (all wars are violent).  It is much harder to pray consistently.  But if you do, you have perhaps importantly converted someone rather than spread shock or created/galvanized an opponent.</p>
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		<title>By: S.L. Toddard</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193410</link>
		<dc:creator>S.L. Toddard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193410</guid>
		<description>&quot;But would it be okay to publish pictures of a rape, a post-violation pelvic exam, or an autopsy&quot;

Obviously not.  There is no analogous problem in America whereby the public is exceedingly favorable to rape due to their unfamiliarity with its violent nature.  Sorry - it&#039;s not comparable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"But would it be okay to publish pictures of a rape, a post-violation pelvic exam, or an autopsy"</p>
<p>Obviously not.  There is no analogous problem in America whereby the public is exceedingly favorable to rape due to their unfamiliarity with its violent nature.  Sorry - it's not comparable.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas MOSES</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193407</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas MOSES</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193407</guid>
		<description>@42:  Granted.  But would it be okay to publish pictures of a rape, a post-violation pelvic exam, or an autopsy?  I am not, for my part, particularly keen on the whole CSI mania.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@42:  Granted.  But would it be okay to publish pictures of a rape, a post-violation pelvic exam, or an autopsy?  I am not, for my part, particularly keen on the whole CSI mania.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/09/09/u-s-hypocrisy-astonishes-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-193375</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 17:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=3017#comment-193375</guid>
		<description>&quot;Similarly we have reason to wish that news agencies have limits beyond which they will not go to make a story more sensational. &quot;

  This is a non sequitur.  This isn&#039;t a question of senationalizing a story.  The view that anything is permissible in war is much easier for the chickenhawks to promote when their opposition has nothing to which they can refer in the mainstream media to illustrate the kinds of horrors being done in our names during a war.

&quot;That’s why most newspapers won’t publish the names and photographs of girls who have been raped.&quot;

  This isn&#039;t true.  Pictures of rape victims aren&#039;t published to avoid influencing of public opinion prior to an arrest and/or trial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Similarly we have reason to wish that news agencies have limits beyond which they will not go to make a story more sensational. "</p>
<p>  This is a non sequitur.  This isn't a question of senationalizing a story.  The view that anything is permissible in war is much easier for the chickenhawks to promote when their opposition has nothing to which they can refer in the mainstream media to illustrate the kinds of horrors being done in our names during a war.</p>
<p>"That’s why most newspapers won’t publish the names and photographs of girls who have been raped."</p>
<p>  This isn't true.  Pictures of rape victims aren't published to avoid influencing of public opinion prior to an arrest and/or trial.</p>
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