Comments on: Of Mary and Crystals http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/ Your home for traditional conservatism. Thu, 24 May 2012 15:33:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Scott P. Richert http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192653 Scott P. Richert Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:01:09 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192653 <i>Some Catholics, perhaps a great many, are ignorant of it as well.</i> Sadly, all too true. Even more so—it's not just those Catholics who think that Catholic history started (or was restarted) with Vatican II. Some Catholics, perhaps a great many, are ignorant of it as well.

Sadly, all too true. Even more so—it's not just those Catholics who think that Catholic history started (or was restarted) with Vatican II.

]]> By: Allen Wilson http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192625 Allen Wilson Thu, 20 Aug 2009 03:10:23 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192625 In furtherance of what F. Ajami said, aside from those types that he described, there are those kooky cultists who claim that from the time of the earliest Christians, there was no true Christianity until the founder of their cult heard the voice of God in the early 19th century and re-founded the true Church. They either know nothing of the history of Christianity or reject it all. These are the craziest of all protestants by far. I dont see how serious Christians of any denomination can ignore the early fathers or the rich history Christendom during the middle ages. To do so is to lose all understanding of real Christianity, and it's not just protestants. Some Catholics, perhaps a great many, are ignorant of it as well. In furtherance of what F. Ajami said, aside from those types that he described, there are those kooky cultists who claim that from the time of the earliest Christians, there was no true Christianity until the founder of their cult heard the voice of God in the early 19th century and re-founded the true Church. They either know nothing of the history of Christianity or reject it all. These are the craziest of all protestants by far.

I dont see how serious Christians of any denomination can ignore the early fathers or the rich history Christendom during the middle ages. To do so is to lose all understanding of real Christianity, and it's not just protestants. Some Catholics, perhaps a great many, are ignorant of it as well.

]]> By: Derek Leaberry http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192612 Derek Leaberry Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:16:23 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192612 Thank you for your answer, F. Ajami. The history major in me forces me to wonder what my Protestant brothers think about history from 32AD-1517. Thank you for your answer, F. Ajami. The history major in me forces me to wonder what my Protestant brothers think about history from 32AD-1517.

]]> By: We’ve Been Arguing About This Since 787 (And No, I Don’t Mean Health Care) « Around The Sphere http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192603 We’ve Been Arguing About This Since 787 (And No, I Don’t Mean Health Care) « Around The Sphere Wed, 19 Aug 2009 19:07:09 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192603 [...] Tom Piatak at Chronicles: But is there a non-theological way to distinguish Marian devotion from “belief in the healing powers of crystals or in the predictive power of entrails”?  I think there is.  Marian devotion has produced more than “creepy painted sculptures”; it also produced Michelangelo’s Pieta and his Bruges Madonna.  There are innumerable architectural gems dedicated to Mary, including the great cathedral in Chartres that so captivated one of America’s distinctive geniuses, Henry Adams.  Belief in crystals has yet to produce a Pieta or a Chartres. [...] [...] Tom Piatak at Chronicles: But is there a non-theological way to distinguish Marian devotion from “belief in the healing powers of crystals or in the predictive power of entrails”?  I think there is.  Marian devotion has produced more than “creepy painted sculptures”; it also produced Michelangelo’s Pieta and his Bruges Madonna.  There are innumerable architectural gems dedicated to Mary, including the great cathedral in Chartres that so captivated one of America’s distinctive geniuses, Henry Adams.  Belief in crystals has yet to produce a Pieta or a Chartres. [...]

]]> By: F. Ajami http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192582 F. Ajami Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:41:15 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192582 In response to Derek Leaberry #37: "Just to throw a little gas on the Catholic-Protestant fire, what is the Protestant view of history from the Ascension of Christ and the advent of Martin Luther? Was it all a big mistake? Was it 1500 years of emptiness?" At the considerable risk of over-simplifying, there are three types of Protestants. In my (relatively conservative)Presbyterian church, we recite the Apostle's creed every Sunday. The Minister often quotes St Augustine or St John Chrysostom, or some other church father (though not Aquinas!). In mainstream liberal churches, where the Lord's prayer often starts "Our Father/Mother", they go out of their way to denigrate the early writings of the church fathers, and not only the early ones, but all "dead white theologians". In the non-mainstream churches, where the stress is on individual salvation, there is more ignorance than rejection, and the certainty that early church fathers are irrelevant. In response to Derek Leaberry #37:
"Just to throw a little gas on the Catholic-Protestant fire, what is the Protestant view of history from the Ascension of Christ and the advent of Martin Luther? Was it all a big mistake? Was it 1500 years of emptiness?"

At the considerable risk of over-simplifying, there are three types of Protestants.
In my (relatively conservative)Presbyterian church, we recite the Apostle's creed every Sunday. The Minister often quotes St Augustine or St John Chrysostom, or some other church father (though not Aquinas!).
In mainstream liberal churches, where the Lord's prayer often starts "Our Father/Mother", they go out of their way to denigrate the early writings of the church fathers, and not only the early ones, but all "dead white theologians".
In the non-mainstream churches, where the stress is on individual salvation, there is more ignorance than rejection, and the certainty that early church fathers are irrelevant.

]]> By: Tom Flinn http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192567 Tom Flinn Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:17:49 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192567 Great article. I believe it was Chesterton who said that when a man does not believe in God he will not believe in nothing; he will believe in anything. Modern America has proven his point to the "nth" degree. I can't help but chuckle when I hear moderns self righteously condemn the medievals for their ignorance and superstition....and then go have their palms read. Perhaps Ms. McDonald should spend some time actually trying to learn about the Catholic Faith and the basis for Marian devotion rather than simply be mystified by it. She might find a Pearl of Great Price and be, in the words of C.S. Lewis, surprised by joy. Great article. I believe it was Chesterton who said that when a man does not believe in God he will not believe in nothing; he will believe in anything. Modern America has proven his point to the "nth" degree. I can't help but chuckle when I hear moderns self righteously condemn the medievals for their ignorance and superstition....and then go have their palms read. Perhaps Ms. McDonald should spend some time actually trying to learn about the Catholic Faith and the basis for Marian devotion rather than simply be mystified by it. She might find a Pearl of Great Price and be, in the words of C.S. Lewis, surprised by joy.

]]> By: Robert II http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192535 Robert II Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:03:30 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192535 "Nobody has ever claimed that there is sufficient empirical support to justify rational adherence. But the very idea that something must have empirical support in order to rationally believe it is preposterous." Thank you, Mr. Edwards. You have restored my minute faith in the possible existence of a conservative remnant in two sentences. "Nobody has ever claimed that there is sufficient empirical support to justify rational adherence. But the very idea that something must have empirical support in order to rationally believe it is preposterous."

Thank you, Mr. Edwards. You have restored my minute faith in the possible existence of a conservative remnant in two sentences.

]]> By: Tom Piatak http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192534 Tom Piatak Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:02:00 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192534 Mr. Leaberry, I love your comments, but my advice would be to hold off on the gas. As I've stated before, my view is that if orthodox Christians do not hang together, we will assuredly hang separately. (Yes, I know I'm paraphrasing a deist, but Ben Franklin's point is applicable to our situation today). Mr. Leaberry,

I love your comments, but my advice would be to hold off on the gas. As I've stated before, my view is that if orthodox Christians do not hang together, we will assuredly hang separately. (Yes, I know I'm paraphrasing a deist, but Ben Franklin's point is applicable to our situation today).

]]> By: Derek Leaberry http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192532 Derek Leaberry Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:53:17 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192532 Just to throw a little gas on the Catholic-Protestant fire, what is the Protestant view of history from the Ascension of Christ and the advent of Martin Luther? Was it all a big mistake? Was it 1500 years of emptiness? Was the institution that created Christian Civilization, the Roman Catholic Church, just one big hoax perpetuated by self-interested con-men? Was Peter not named by Christ as leader of His Church on Earth prior to His Ascension? Did Christ make a mistake by naming Peter his earthly successor or did Peter lie to get the job? Inquiring minds would like to know. Just to throw a little gas on the Catholic-Protestant fire, what is the Protestant view of history from the Ascension of Christ and the advent of Martin Luther? Was it all a big mistake? Was it 1500 years of emptiness? Was the institution that created Christian Civilization, the Roman Catholic Church, just one big hoax perpetuated by self-interested con-men? Was Peter not named by Christ as leader of His Church on Earth prior to His Ascension? Did Christ make a mistake by naming Peter his earthly successor or did Peter lie to get the job? Inquiring minds would like to know.

]]> By: Edward http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/08/14/of-mary-and-crystals/comment-page-1/#comment-192531 Edward Mon, 17 Aug 2009 18:53:15 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2646#comment-192531 Ms. MacDonald belies her adherence to ideology when she says that “None of this tells me whether the supernatural tenets of any given faith have sufficient empirical support to justify rational adherence to them.” Nobody has ever claimed that there is sufficient empirical support to justify rational adherence. But the very idea that something must have empirical support in order to rationally believe it is preposterous. 2+2=4 is true despite the fact that there is no empirical evidence to suggest it. Has she ever even read Plato or Aristotle, or, for that matter, any philosopher worth his salt? This is laughable. I would also suggest that her constant raising of the existence of evil shows how truly ignorant she and her readers are. When I was young I asked the same question: "How can there be a God is there is evil?" It is at least understandable even if it doesn't actually disprove God's existence. The difference between my asking the question and her asking the question is that I really wanted to know the answer. 2000 years of Christian tradition (Augustine, Aquinas, and many, many others) also took this objection seriously and answered it conclusively. My question, then, is this: If Ms. MacDonald and others are just so curious to know how evil can co-exist with God, why don't they stop typing and start reading. Mr. Piatak is a fine writer and an exceptionally intelligent man, but the burden is not on him or anyone else to answer these sophomoric questions when people will not even take the time to read what the classical Christian tradition has to say on the matter. Ms. MacDonald belies her adherence to ideology when she says that “None of this tells me whether the supernatural tenets of any given faith have sufficient empirical support to justify rational adherence to them.” Nobody has ever claimed that there is sufficient empirical support to justify rational adherence. But the very idea that something must have empirical support in order to rationally believe it is preposterous. 2+2=4 is true despite the fact that there is no empirical evidence to suggest it. Has she ever even read Plato or Aristotle, or, for that matter, any philosopher worth his salt? This is laughable.

I would also suggest that her constant raising of the existence of evil shows how truly ignorant she and her readers are. When I was young I asked the same question: "How can there be a God is there is evil?" It is at least understandable even if it doesn't actually disprove God's existence. The difference between my asking the question and her asking the question is that I really wanted to know the answer. 2000 years of Christian tradition (Augustine, Aquinas, and many, many others) also took this objection seriously and answered it conclusively. My question, then, is this: If Ms. MacDonald and others are just so curious to know how evil can co-exist with God, why don't they stop typing and start reading. Mr. Piatak is a fine writer and an exceptionally intelligent man, but the burden is not on him or anyone else to answer these sophomoric questions when people will not even take the time to read what the classical Christian tradition has to say on the matter.

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