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	<title>Comments on: Tiller, Roeder, Richert, and Luther</title>
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	<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/</link>
	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: Samuel Bass</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191242</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Bass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191242</guid>
		<description>#41. &quot;Where will people be taught the truth when men like Fleming and Wolf are gone?  Mr. Wolf is, I believe, quite young and Dr. Fleming certainly seems spry enough. Let us trust that &quot;men like them&quot; will not (forgive the Lincolnism) perish from the earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#41. "Where will people be taught the truth when men like Fleming and Wolf are gone?  Mr. Wolf is, I believe, quite young and Dr. Fleming certainly seems spry enough. Let us trust that "men like them" will not (forgive the Lincolnism) perish from the earth.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191227</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191227</guid>
		<description>Living by example is the best way to get a person to convert to your way of life/thinking. What kind of witness is Roeder? Not a very good one, plus the moron has given the Left another example as to label Christians &quot;right wing nutjobs&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Living by example is the best way to get a person to convert to your way of life/thinking. What kind of witness is Roeder? Not a very good one, plus the moron has given the Left another example as to label Christians "right wing nutjobs"!</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191226</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191226</guid>
		<description>Roeder&#039;s murder solves nothing. OK you whacked one abortionist, but another will take is place for sure. Christians need to follow what Christ said and follow him and live godly lives. This is how Christianity spread throughout antiquity, and it worked rather well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roeder's murder solves nothing. OK you whacked one abortionist, but another will take is place for sure. Christians need to follow what Christ said and follow him and live godly lives. This is how Christianity spread throughout antiquity, and it worked rather well.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191225</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191225</guid>
		<description>The trouble is that Christians have become lazy and have handed over their duties to the lying politicians. Tiller will be held accountable by God for his role in infanticide, but Roeder is equally as guilty of murder also. Aaron Wolfe is indeed right, this trying to moralize Tiller&#039;s murder shows us how depraved our society has become and how corrupt Christianity has become as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trouble is that Christians have become lazy and have handed over their duties to the lying politicians. Tiller will be held accountable by God for his role in infanticide, but Roeder is equally as guilty of murder also. Aaron Wolfe is indeed right, this trying to moralize Tiller's murder shows us how depraved our society has become and how corrupt Christianity has become as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191214</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191214</guid>
		<description>I have been following the discussion of Tiller&#039;s murder and its moral implications on many conservative websites (both mainstream and alternative). Not until I read Dr. Fleming&#039;s response in this combox did I finally see the correct response to this issue. Its all in his book, The Morality of Everyday Life, and, after reading it, my reaction to Tiller&#039;s death is the same as Fleming&#039;s. Its just like he said in the book, most people in this discussion can only see things in terms of universal rights, isolated individuals, and the abstract state. These are the only players on the stage of liberal ethics. Hardly anyone else has pointed this out, though, with the exception of Aaron Wolf. 

This is not encouraging. There are many sincere conservatives and Christians who want to live virtuously, but where will people be taught the truth when men like Wolf and Fleming are gone? Watching other people discuss this same topic on other websites and in other publications has shown me how ignorant of our Christian traditions we really are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been following the discussion of Tiller's murder and its moral implications on many conservative websites (both mainstream and alternative). Not until I read Dr. Fleming's response in this combox did I finally see the correct response to this issue. Its all in his book, The Morality of Everyday Life, and, after reading it, my reaction to Tiller's death is the same as Fleming's. Its just like he said in the book, most people in this discussion can only see things in terms of universal rights, isolated individuals, and the abstract state. These are the only players on the stage of liberal ethics. Hardly anyone else has pointed this out, though, with the exception of Aaron Wolf. </p>
<p>This is not encouraging. There are many sincere conservatives and Christians who want to live virtuously, but where will people be taught the truth when men like Wolf and Fleming are gone? Watching other people discuss this same topic on other websites and in other publications has shown me how ignorant of our Christian traditions we really are.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191211</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191211</guid>
		<description>Yes, you have it right.  St. Thomas says, in this connection, that while it is ius (right) for a parent to take care of a child, this &quot;right&quot; cannot be converted into a claim upon the parent, because a child has no such claim.  This is his illustration, in fact, of why a right is not a claim.  If we get back to the classical and Christian understanding of morals, we can then speak of particular duties imposed by nature and by God rather than of abstract rights that everyone--per impossibile--is supposed to owe everyone else.   This is an approach that Augustine and Thomas derive from Paul, and Augustine sagely points out that we cannot help everyone equally, because we lack the resources.  Why confine ourselves to saving American babies?  Why not travel the world in search of babies to save?  I don&#039;t think I have to spell out the evil consequences of this immoral philosophy of rights, because they are all around us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, you have it right.  St. Thomas says, in this connection, that while it is ius (right) for a parent to take care of a child, this "right" cannot be converted into a claim upon the parent, because a child has no such claim.  This is his illustration, in fact, of why a right is not a claim.  If we get back to the classical and Christian understanding of morals, we can then speak of particular duties imposed by nature and by God rather than of abstract rights that everyone--per impossibile--is supposed to owe everyone else.   This is an approach that Augustine and Thomas derive from Paul, and Augustine sagely points out that we cannot help everyone equally, because we lack the resources.  Why confine ourselves to saving American babies?  Why not travel the world in search of babies to save?  I don't think I have to spell out the evil consequences of this immoral philosophy of rights, because they are all around us.</p>
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		<title>By: J Meng</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191201</link>
		<dc:creator>J Meng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191201</guid>
		<description>@37:  Dr. Fleming, apropos your remark that &quot;the right to life argument is not Christian but Liberal&quot;, if I understand it, then would it be correct for me to say that it is the God-imposed duty of a pregnant woman, and her husband, to protect the developing life in her womb so that it will eventually be born and nurtured within the context of a family-community cultural nexus?  That it is not a matter of a right of the baby, but of the parents being obedient to the natural and divine laws?  That to abort the baby in the womb is a violation of that duty and God is being disobeyed?  That if someone shoots another person and kills him he has not taken away any right to live but only a life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@37:  Dr. Fleming, apropos your remark that "the right to life argument is not Christian but Liberal", if I understand it, then would it be correct for me to say that it is the God-imposed duty of a pregnant woman, and her husband, to protect the developing life in her womb so that it will eventually be born and nurtured within the context of a family-community cultural nexus?  That it is not a matter of a right of the baby, but of the parents being obedient to the natural and divine laws?  That to abort the baby in the womb is a violation of that duty and God is being disobeyed?  That if someone shoots another person and kills him he has not taken away any right to live but only a life?</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191199</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191199</guid>
		<description>I have been abroad and away from computers and, thus, unable to follow, much less take part in this discussion.  Where some go seriously astray is in accepting the Enlightenment/Liberal assumption that 1) because something needs doing, I have a right to do it, and 2) whatever I have  right to do I probably ought to do.  

Consider the case of education.  Children should be taught, but whose business is it to see that they are taught?  Everyone&#039;s or the parents.  To take a coarser example, a married woman should be comforted by a male, but whose business is it to comfort her?  Everyone&#039;s or her husband&#039;s?  If a man is smacking his wife, I may be justified in intervening-if I know the couple and understand the situation, but am I obliged?  Certainly not.  Every station in life--those of husband, wife, parent, child, citizen--has its duties.  There is certainly a higher Christian morality than simply doing the duties incumbent on one&#039;s station, but that morality hardly ever teaches us to invade someone else&#039;s sphere of duty. 

The Christian Church has always taught that it is wrong to kill the innocent, including babies, including unborn babies.  (It has also taught that contraception is evil.  Should we shoot the dispenser of condoms?)  Early Christians did not, however, interfere when pagans killed their born or unborn babies.  They were content not to kill their own or to allow the infanticide to be practiced by their brothers and sisters.  When the Empire became Christianized, it outlawed abortion, though practically speaking this meant little, and it was not until (if I recall correctly) the 7th century that abortion was made a capital crime.  Under the Empire, by the way, abortion was legal, but a married woman who aborted her child without her husband&#039;s consent faced the death penalty.  

Until Christians give up their busy-bodying and meddling and self-righteous posturing, they will never be in a position to do any good.  How many pro-life mothers have taken time away from their own families to demonstrate against what anti-Christians will do simply because they are anti-Christian?  Because an abortionist should be executed in a Christian society, does not mean that a citizen in a post-Christian society has the duty or right to carry out the sentence.  Such free-lance actions are immoral and subversive.  The killer of an abortionist deserves to be executed, unless, as Mr. Wolf sagely suggests, the dead baby is a close relative.  There is much more that could be said, but the main point I wish to convey is that the  right to life argument is not Christian but Liberal, and Christians who use Liberal weapons will see those weapons turned against themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been abroad and away from computers and, thus, unable to follow, much less take part in this discussion.  Where some go seriously astray is in accepting the Enlightenment/Liberal assumption that 1) because something needs doing, I have a right to do it, and 2) whatever I have  right to do I probably ought to do.  </p>
<p>Consider the case of education.  Children should be taught, but whose business is it to see that they are taught?  Everyone's or the parents.  To take a coarser example, a married woman should be comforted by a male, but whose business is it to comfort her?  Everyone's or her husband's?  If a man is smacking his wife, I may be justified in intervening-if I know the couple and understand the situation, but am I obliged?  Certainly not.  Every station in life--those of husband, wife, parent, child, citizen--has its duties.  There is certainly a higher Christian morality than simply doing the duties incumbent on one's station, but that morality hardly ever teaches us to invade someone else's sphere of duty. </p>
<p>The Christian Church has always taught that it is wrong to kill the innocent, including babies, including unborn babies.  (It has also taught that contraception is evil.  Should we shoot the dispenser of condoms?)  Early Christians did not, however, interfere when pagans killed their born or unborn babies.  They were content not to kill their own or to allow the infanticide to be practiced by their brothers and sisters.  When the Empire became Christianized, it outlawed abortion, though practically speaking this meant little, and it was not until (if I recall correctly) the 7th century that abortion was made a capital crime.  Under the Empire, by the way, abortion was legal, but a married woman who aborted her child without her husband's consent faced the death penalty.  </p>
<p>Until Christians give up their busy-bodying and meddling and self-righteous posturing, they will never be in a position to do any good.  How many pro-life mothers have taken time away from their own families to demonstrate against what anti-Christians will do simply because they are anti-Christian?  Because an abortionist should be executed in a Christian society, does not mean that a citizen in a post-Christian society has the duty or right to carry out the sentence.  Such free-lance actions are immoral and subversive.  The killer of an abortionist deserves to be executed, unless, as Mr. Wolf sagely suggests, the dead baby is a close relative.  There is much more that could be said, but the main point I wish to convey is that the  right to life argument is not Christian but Liberal, and Christians who use Liberal weapons will see those weapons turned against themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: John Rutowicz</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191132</link>
		<dc:creator>John Rutowicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191132</guid>
		<description>Charlemagne @35,

One who believes and lives out (to the best of his ability) the teachings of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.  Such creatures are hard to find today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlemagne @35,</p>
<p>One who believes and lives out (to the best of his ability) the teachings of Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions.  Such creatures are hard to find today.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlemagne</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2009/06/15/tiller-roeder-richert-and-luther/comment-page-1/#comment-191131</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlemagne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=2252#comment-191131</guid>
		<description>Mr. Rutowicz @ 33,
 Sir, what is solid Lutheran?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Rutowicz @ 33,<br />
 Sir, what is solid Lutheran?</p>
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