What Is History? Part 25
And death is in the phial and the end of noble work,
But Don John of Austria has fired upon the Turk
—G.K. Chesterton
The North is full of tangled things. . . . —Chesterton
Whiskey and blood run together. —Ferrol Sams
If you’ve got two worms in one apple, sooner or later they’ll meet. —Ferrol Sams
Taxpayers exist to support the bureaucrats in the style to which they have become accustomed. —Lew Rockwell
War is a racket. —Gen. Smedley Butler, two-time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
It is always interesting to observe the effect of candor on the brainwashed ideologues mass-produced by American education. —Thomas Fleming
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. —Philip K. Dick
History repeats itself—but not exactly. —Clyde Wilson
Those who have the most virtues in their mouths have the least in their bosoms. —Oliver Goldsmith
Common sense. —Oliver Goldsmith answer on being asked what was the best Biblical commentary
The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money. —Margaret Thatcher
Many of these deep thinkers also believe that Darwin proved that God didn't create man. Instead, man arose by the process of evolution, one accidental step at a time. . . . As if God couldn't make it look like an accident, if He wanted. —Bill Bonner
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#48 One can’t just draw a Mason-Dixon line and declare everyone north of it a Yankee.
I think if the Blue Collar comedy boys have proven anything it's that red necks know no borders; they're everywhere. But the source and spirit have one source in America: the South. I don't think we're at odds here.
#50 "Citing artists who made CDs does not really define “real country.” And with all the defenses of “country”, I did not really see (did I miss it?) a definition."
Like Jelly Roll Morton said when some one asked him what jazz was; "If you've got to ask, you'll never know." No definition is needed because you know it when you hear it. If you don't hear it, fugget about it.
The remainder of this I offer with the disclaimer: I'm a classical musician and have written books on my concentration of study. I've played in countless classical concerts with symphonies and chamber music groups, toured as soloist with the New England String Quartet and taught clarinet in universities for 15 years––Fischer-Dieskau and Elizabeth Schwartzkopf are my two favorite singers and I was probably the only clarinetist in the Yale Master's Performance program to do his thesis on German lieder. I have no animus against classical music––quite the opposite. With that in mind I offer the following:
"And if you buy the best recording of that work, you get Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing, who are slightly better than anyone Roy Hiccup and his Smoky Mountain Boys ‘n Girls could put together. After all, in addition to the “culture”, you are listening to actual voices . .."
The Catholic principle that comes in mind here is that of "that which is fitting." One cannot compare these two modes of expression head to head. You can only judge the degree of success they achieve within the context of their own style and genre. Dieskau would sound absurd singing Blue Moon of Kentucky...just as absurd as Monroe would sound singing Auf dem Wasser zu Singen or Das Lied auf dem Grünen. I've heard countless examples of incongruous genre trying to mix and it is uniformly gawd awful.
Let us not be cowed by the elitism of so-called high art. Refinement of style does not mean superiority of content. Some of the formal european music is utterly shallow and superficial; the phrases "audial twinkies" or 18th and 19th century Musak come to mind; pretty packages with lovely bows,... and nothing inside.
But you object: "Country music and bluegrass are so....well, simple."
Really?
I recall Bernstein talking about trying to write a country song. After hours of trying, the great American composer completely gave up---he just couldn't do it. He said everything he tried sounded trite, contrived.
I"ve tried to do it to and I'll say my training works against me at every turn of the road.
Finally, as to quality of voice: there is the question of language and what we find at hand as a means of making music. Which came first, the twang of the banjo, or the twang of the cracker? Which ever one it was, they are an harmonious and fortuitous pairing when it comes to Southern mountain folk. The pairing would not be so fortuitous with Dieskau and the banjo. The reverse is equally absurd: Bill Monroe does Cole Porter. I don't think so.
"Classical music is dying, for lack of support."
The lack of support is not a cause, but a symptom and effect of the real reason. It lacks support because the spiritual, moral, social and philosophical realities that underpinned it are all but dead. People, more and more, have no transcendent vision and are rootless as well. They are little more than wandering little existential monads. I believe in common religious parlance they called that "lost."
"But I have grown up, and now choose to listen mostly to serious (classical) music, although I do have some folk music in the collection."
I guess I'm beginning my second childhood then, since I'd much rather listen to great folk music and bluegrass than some of the empty pyrotechnics of the 19th century composers, the musak of the 18th century formula music, or "The Dance of the Hours" or "Humoresque" ––or "Symphony no. 2576 in C minus, opus 14,964 by Johann Amadeus Majetsky" any day.
Lord!
I recall one of the most profound and transcendent musical experiences I ever had was listening to a recording of Bill Monroe singing "Precious Memories." Equal to that was hearing Fischer-Dieskau perform the Brahms song cycle I did my master's thesis on, live at Carnegie Hall. The third; hearing Elizabeth Schwartzkopf live at the University of Illinois in 1968. I see no contradiction in grouping these experiences.
Personally, I think it's wrong headed and even somewhat insulting to imply that bluegrass and country music is intrinsically inferior and just for the musically immature and undiscerning. Gravity and authenticity of content–––heart––– not style or genre, should be the only criteria.
Duke Ellington said, "Wise musicians are those who play what they can master."
He also said, "There's only two kinds of music. Good music and bad music." And the good music, the great music is not the exclusive property of a single genre.
He also said, "There's hardly any money interest in art, and music will be there when the money is gone."
When the money is gone no one will remember Britany Spears or Miley Cyrus or Michael Jackson–––but we'll still be listening to Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Hans Hotter---as well as Doc Watson, the Kruger Brothers, Ricky Skaggs, and yes, Alison Kraus and even Nickel Creek. The difference in what lasts and does not last?? One is real, the other isn't--just like the dollar.
#50. The difference is---country (i.e. Southern) music is still alive. Classical music is beautifully preserved.
"The closest thing I’ve seen to a folk music outside the South is the music of the late Chris Ledoux, the Wyoming cowboy. Ledoux worked his own ranch and was the world champion bareback bronc rider in 1976. Unfortunately, in his later years he drifted into commercial pop-country, but his early work is still worth listening to. These songs tell the tales of rodeo life and express the beauty of the Mountain West."
Josh, If you're or anyone else looking for something similar, may I suggest you look at Western Jubilee Music. Especially artists such as Don Edwards, Juni Fisher, and The Sons of the San Joaquin.
Mr. Sitton,
I agree with you. By the way, Baldwin Wallace College in Berea, Ohio (ten minutes from my house) is having its annual Bach Festival in April, with the featured major work being the Christmas Oratorio. Two years ago, my wife and I attended a splendid performance of the Mass in B Minor as part of the Festival. (As an added treat, it was actually performed at Severance Hall, the home of the Cleveland Orchestra and one of the most beatiful concert venues in the country). If you make it to Cleveland for the Festival, I hope to see you.
#52 Dr. Wilson, are there any musicians and singers you recommend?
Mr. Ridenour, thank you for your recommendations.
I scanned this thread and may have overlooked it, but has anyone defined "Yankee?" I certainly hope it isn't referring to anyone who happens to be north of the MD Line because I don't think the condemnations fit. I grew up in southern Indiana and I'll be darned if I have anything in common with some of the attitudes that are being described as "yankee." Clarification here???? As to country music being "southern folk music," we might take it back a step and say that in reality it is Scottish and Irish folk music transplanted to the new world by our ancestors. And if it isn't quite America's folk music it has become nearly so and more power to it. That is, except for the bland commercialized (NY??, maybe that is what everyone means by "yankee") swill that goes by that name now. There have been revivals before and may be again. By the way "Pancho and Lefty" was written by Townes Van Zandt. Emmylou Harris (God bless her) had the best version in my opinion (no offense to Merle who I love; Willie...I can do without.)
Tom Flinn,
I'd say Indianans south of Indianapolis are not Yankees, that is, you get a feeling of cultural and behavioral changes from "Northern" to "Southern" as soon as you leave Indianapolis on that freeway that leads south to Louisville. The parts of Missouri and Illinois that are south of St. Louis fall into the same category. I would classify Kentucky and West Virginia as Southern states, despite the latter's siding with the Union during the War. Florida is definitely southern by geography, but not by culture, not for a few decades now. Lastly, despite being only a territory during the War and not a state for more than 40 years later, Oklahoma is a Southern state. Those are my opinions on "Southern" clarification, maybe somebody else would like to chime in with differing views.
I scanned this thread and may have overlooked it, but has anyone defined “Yankee?”
Yes, a distinction may be made. There are northerners and then there are Yankees.
Northerners are mostly sane decent folks, just not as nice and friendly as Southerners.
Yankees are anything but decent. They are covenant breakers, schemers, self-righteous, conflate their goals with divine purpose and providence, believe they have the right to impose by force their ways upon you; yankees believe any and all means can be justified in attaining their goals. They have no compunction about taking what is yours; they only believe in private property when it concerns them. Yankees are men of the double law; one law for them that gives them endless advantages and one law for you that keeps you ever under their rule. Yankees are men who seek to use power to confiscate what is not their and that for which they never labored. They are rude, arrogant and their food sucks; they have no songs and no culture of their own. Yankees are men who have rejected God and embraced mammon. The last thing they want is to live and let live. Their gory is power, money and control.
And these are among their better qualities.
I didn't think I would draw so much "blood".
#51: In your fourth paragraph down, you cite Jelly Roll Morton making a comment: "If you've got to ask, you'll never know", which at least parallels one by J. P. Morgan: "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." Clever, obliquely accusatory, and a good evasion, too. Then you state "The remainder of this I offer with the disclaimer: . . ." Is what follows really a disclaimer?
You then note "One cannot compare these two modes of expression head to head." Why not? And then you indicate Dietrich Fischer-"Dieskau would sound absurd singing 'Blue Moon of Kentucky'." Why? He seemed able to sing folk songs of other nations. Taking your position, no Japanese, for instance, could ever play or sing European works - but some do, and very well indeed. You state that I said "Country music and bluegrass are so . . . well, simple." I never said that. I did, however, say that I liked progressive jazz, which can be simple - simple as the blues progression (even in its many variations) or its tautological lyrics. Simplicity is not the problem with country music.
Bernstein and Copland fall outside my area of interest, so I have no thought about Bernstein's travails in trying to write a country song.
You said "Finally, as to quality of voice: there is the question of language and what we find at hand as a means of making music. Which came first, the twang of the banjo or the twang of the cracker?" I would never infer that country music is performed only by Crackers. What I will say is that country music has been sung by some people with beautiful, wonderfully clear balladeers' voices, and if all of country music singing utilized such voices, I might like it better . . . maybe.
You quote me "Classical music is dying, for lack of support", and then take issue with that judgment! Of course that music is dying for lack of support: if you don't buy the recordings or attend the concerts, it dies. I never said that that was the only cause, or the root cause, which you go on to define beautifully.
Finally, you quote me "But I have grown up, and now choose to listen mostly to serious (classical) music, although I do have some folk music in the collection." For some reason you take this to mean that I infer that others have not "grown up" enough to appreciate classical music, which I aver I have, so they are somehow lesser . . . You don't even broach the possibility that I might be referring to the fact (and I was) that I had accumulated an amount of experience that comes only with age, and had with that experience made a choice, without any implication regarding other music appreciators (thus unconsciously avoiding the future "insulting to imply" reference you make). Those "others" were not components of my decision. But more importantly, you need to read the whole sentence, which you quote "But I have grown up, and now choose to listen mostly to serious (classical) music, ALTHOUGH I DO HAVE SOME FOLK MUSIC IN THE COLLECTION." (emphasis mine) And I even gave you an example of a recent purchase, "Songs of the Auvergne", sung by Victoria de los Angeles. Reading the whole sentence will aid you in making the correct inferences. The rest of the last paragraph seems more of the same, so I'll only agree that yes, I am aware of many "shallow" and "superficial" works of European music.
And that brings me to the end - of my engagement on this field of battle. You may say, "You have run out of ammunition" (your best case), or I might say "It's because I refuse to sail under the black flag" (which is true). Or it could be because I am tired of scrolling down to the umpteenth post. Anyway, I shall retire from this discussion, and give it over to Superior Forces. And I will retire with the lyrics from "one of the great unrecorded country songs of our time:
'My tears spoiled my aim; that's why you're not dead.
I blew a hole in the wall two feet above the bed.
I couldn't see where you were at, my tears were fallin' so.
I tried to shoot by ear, but y'all were lyin' low'." (with apologies to John Shelton Reed)
Its author was right: it is one of the great unrecorded country songs of our time.
Howard Sitton
P.S.: Tom Piatek at #54: I do recommend "Songs of the Auvergne" cited above; I think it is on EMI. And as I remember it (now), I promised to send you some things at the JRC meeting, and failed to do so. My excuse is that I had a personal medical emergency which took over virtually all thought for some months. I will try to dig up the stuff and send it on. I think I still have your card.
H
#57. Mr. Flinn. In my book DEFENDING DIXIE, you will find an ample, careful historical definition of "The Yankee Problem in American History." No, not all people north of the line are "Yankees." Southerners were the first settlers of the Midwest and there are still cultural remnants of that, not to mention all the Southerners that were forced to "Detroit City" to make a living.
re- #9: Townes Van Zandt wrote "Pancho and Lefty". Emmylou Harris covered it much better (and earlier) than Red Willie did and she brought it into the repertoire of beer joint bands. Townes was a Texan and an extremely prolific songwriter. He was an addict as well and died from complications of a broken pelvis which he left untreated for the duration of his last alcohol binge.
Several of the greatest writers of the genre were addicts such as Hank Williams and Keith Whitley. Whitley's "When You Say Nothing At All" is pure genius and shines brightest in Alison Krause's cover of the song.
I believe, though, that there are still quite a few contemporary country artists who write songs that will last. Russell Smith is one. Chris Knight is another, and so are Buddy Miller and Steve Earle. Country music isn't dead, but the pop silliness played on commercial country stations isn't country anyway, IMO.
XM satellite radio had a station for Americana called Cross Country and it showcased all the current artists who can rightly be called country artists. Sadly, that station was cancelled when XM merged with Sirius and it was replaced with "Outlaw Country" which is a poor substitute and is dominated by the fat, foul-mouthed drunk, Mojo Nixon, a frustrated FM DJ whose nasty rants spoil the little good music that is included in their playlist.
Southern music is still the only worthwhile American music these days, to me at least.
Thank you, Dr. Wilson. I'll have to see if I can get a copy of that book. Indiana was, of course, at one time part of Virginia and my ancestors (who came to VA from Ireland in around 1716) moved into southern Indiana in around 1810, so there remains a strong southern "flavor" to the area. Interestingly, when I was a child, before I knew anything at all about the "civil war" or any of the issues surrounding it, we would play civil war on the playground at school and I always wanted to side with the Confederacy, and always had a preference for that side of the conflict. I also remember hearing my mother, who in her 81 years was outside of the state of Indiana twice, singing or humming Blue Moon of Kentucky or one of the Carter family songs. Where did that come from? Perhaps our roots run much deeper than we realize.
Mr. Ridenour #59: I suspected your definition of "yankee" was pretty much what was being talked about and I would agree. Just wanted to make sure we were all talking about pretty much the same thing. I would partially disagree with one statement. As I said, I am from southern Indiana. I lived in Memphis for two years and did find the people there nice and friendly, but no more so than the folks in my neck of the woods. Perhaps it depends on which "northerners" you are talking about.
Brock H. #58: You are correct about the northern and southern halves of Indiana. The southern part was the first to be settled and was settled mostly by southerners. The northern part has much more influx of New England types. Culturally Indiana could easily be two states and that is why I usually say I am from "southern Indiana." If you google "southern Indiana" there is actually a separate entry for it in Wikipedia.
Mr. Ridenour #59: I suspected your definition of “yankee” was pretty much what was being talked about and I would agree. Just wanted to make sure we were all talking about pretty much the same thing. I would partially disagree with one statement. As I said, I am from southern Indiana. I lived in Memphis for two years and did find the people there nice and friendly, but no more so than the folks in my neck of the woods. Perhaps it depends on which “northerners” you are talking about.
I agree with you. I'm from Kentucky originally and know the people of that area pretty well, and they are good country folk, Larry Byrd style, and share very much the same character as my people from Kentucky––country people, that is. Get near the cities anywhere or a university where our youth are being perverted, and all bets are off. The original term "yankee" referred to New Englanders, the heirs of the Puritans. Their self-righteousness and arrogance was mocked by even New Yorkers and other people south of Massachusetts and Connecticut. It was this "holier than thou", "we're the ones who know what real Americanism is" attitude that the northeasterners sought to force upon the whole nation, by any necessary means.
The southern, agrarian character represented the other possible direction the country as the United States might have taken––actually, under the sway of the Southern spirit the country would mostly likely have remained separate nation-states, or the states may have united into several different regional confederacies. That would have been much better, actually--for both use and the world.
Anyway, the Yankees sought to stamp their character and ways on the whole nation. Irony of ironies, the children of the strict New England Puritans, removed from Revealed truth while retaining the air of self-righteousness and superiority, became the source of a wild-eyed, liberal, Jacobin movement. They advanced their agenda by the ultimate Liberal principle which is alive and well today––and just as destructive: the ends justify the means.
Dr. Wilson brings all of this out and much, much more in Defending Dixie––as they used to say in better times (the Middle ages) sell your bed and buy it.
#60
"Then you state “The remainder of this I offer with the disclaimer: . . .” Is what follows really a disclaimer?"
My disclaimer was to show I'm not just superficially interested in this subject, and beyond that, even more personally committed to classical music than the various folk musics. In other words, I'm sympathetic to the things you hold dear.
Without laboring over the various misreadings, misunderstandings and niggling little erroneous claims and conclusions of your response, it's clear you totally missed my main points.
To put them as concisely and plainly as I know how, they go like this:
Music, like everything, has form and content. It is possible for forms to be elegant, refined and sophisticated and the content to be shallow and superficial. Saint Saens comes to mind.
It is also possible for the forms to be simple and even crude and the content to be profound.
Sophistication can be crushingly, soul-deadeningly boring; simplicity can be saturated with beauty.
The examples of the profound and beautiful in folk musics are so rife that it would be hard to single out one without slighting thousands of other works of equal worth.
My final point:
Classical music fans tend to be easily seduced by refinement of presentation and sophistication of form, as if these were sufficient justification for the existence of the music. They are not. Classical devotees also tend to be snobs and dilettantish, looking down on the simple and unsophisticated as intrinsically inferior. (An attitude foreign to the great classical composers).
The man who does not seek the profound, transcendent substance that is both the source and final cause of the urge to create great music, has lost sight of the real purpose of art and traded it for a pretty package that contains nothing.
Such were my points. If the shoe fits, wear it.
#64: I agree 100%. In fact, I have often told a friend of mine (a conservative Methodist minister) that complaints about "secular humanism" should probably be aimed at "secular Puritanism" or "secular Calvinism." So you are from Kentucky? I love Kentucky. I think it is an absolutely beautiful state. My family and I lived near Louisville back in the early 1980's.
#65: You are also right about many classical music fans. My wife's sister and brother-in-law would think nothing of attending a concert by the Chicago Symphony presenting, e.g., Beethoven's Ninth (and letting everyone know they did). But they have nothing but contempt for the likes of Bill Monroe, etc. and anyone who would enjoy that genre. Again, form over substance.
So you are from Kentucky?
Yes, born in Harlan Co. My father worked in the mines for 47 years. But I haven't lived there since I finished undergrad work at Murray State, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth...before disco. Kentucky is very beautiful and very diverse; mountains, farm lands, bluegrass, knob, pennyroyal, western coal fields, the expansive majesty north of Mammoth Cave. Things get less picturesque as you head north in the state in various places. I really like the southern and central parts of the state.
So, let's see, I've lived in the east and west of Kentucky, as well as New England (arghhh), Chicago (coooold), Georgia (one year), Florida (I liked it) and now Texas––I got here as soon as I could.
For anyone interested, there is a video on youtube entitled "Chinese Bluegrass." Wonder about people's reaction.
Naturally some--alas, maybe many--people who attend classical concerts are snobs. I know musicians who are snobs--they only perform classical music because they see it as the pinnacle of musical technical proficiency and therefore worthy of acclaim; if the world all of a sudden decided Irish fiddling was sophisticated and worthy of only the best players, they would ditch classical music and be fiddling as quickly as they could learn how. (I am not disparaging Irish fiddling!)
Having been among amateur and professional musicians for years, I find it is usually easy to tell the difference between the lovers and the snobs: The lovers (paid or not) talk and act like lovers; they can't leave the beloved in word or deed for long. The snobs show up at the symphony, but then get in their cars and tune in to Jazz-lite or some other vapid FM station as soon as they are out of earshot of the other symphony snobs; they might not ever listen to classical music at home except when the book club is meeting at their house.
Once classical music loses its snob-appeal (it already has in many circles) it will become better than it is now because only the lovers will be left to enjoy and perform it. For many young musicians, the only reason they choose classical music is for the love of it--they often endure a certain scrutiny from their peers if they disavow pop, rock or rap. (Though I think some young people are beginning to feel the vacuum of pop culture and be less critical of someone who rises above it.)
I sing with a group of (mostly) lovers. We perform Bach, Handel, Mozart et al. A few years ago we also performed a joint concert with a small bluegrass band. The band loved our classical portion of the concert. We loved the bluegrass portion. The non-snob members of the audience loved the whole thing.
The posters here have revealed a great deal about modern music which a lot of people would benefit from reading.
Personally, though I love classical music, I hate the classical music snobs, and dont want to be within a hundred miles of them. Conversely, the one thing I hate worse than anything else in the world is that type of snob who, when he finds himself amongst country music lovers, tries to play himself off as not really being a snob so as to ingratiate himself with them to a degree (always with a thinly veiled air of condescension), by saying, 'I like SOME country music, I just dont like the twangy stuff'. I cant say in good company what I would like to do to jerks who say things like that.
What I have found is that listening to classical music for the love of it and developing an appreciation for it seems to make one appreciate country, bluegrass, and other genres more, not less. Snobs dont really appreciate classical music at all, as other posters here have pointed out.
#67: You sound a lot like me. I, too, graduated pre-disco from Indiana State University (pre-Larry Byrd, too). I have lived in Indiana, Wisconsin, Tennessee, Kentucky and now Ohio. Every time we moved my wife had another baby, so we decided to stop moving.
# 72
If you go to the drug store there are little books that explain how women get pregnant. And it's not by moving. Just thought you'd like to know.