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	<title>Comments on: Oresteia III: Choephoroe</title>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-184715</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-184715</guid>
		<description>The connection with Dionysian ritual is usually assumed, though there is scarcely any evidence.  Masks are found elsewhere in religious drama, but comparisons can be perilous.  The best works on the origins of tragedy available in English are two books by Pickard-Cambridge, but one must beware, in Dithyramb, Tragedy, and Comedy, of the later additions by the eccentric TBL Webster, who had a thing about satyrs and sex imagery. 

Aeschylus&#039; audience would have scant knowledge of human sacrifice except as something they associated with barbarous peoples and primitive times.  There are Greek myths, as in the story of Idomeneus&#039; return from Troy, but what religious significance they had by the V Century, it is hard to tell.  The murders in the Oresteia, so far from reintegrating community, are seen as highly destructive.  Matricide is a terrifying thing for the Greeks--in Aristophanes Clouds the mere threat of Pheidippides to beat his mother arouses his father to burn down Socrates&#039; think-tank.  

Finally, there is a good deal in this and other Greek plays about false identity, and that is partly because the anagnorisis is so important.  There is also, however, a lot of emphasis put on the way Clytaemestra trapped Agamemnon with a net. Some fanciful (though not necessary incorrect) interpreters would see a connection between the net, the so-called carpet--really strewn fabrics--and the rags worn by the Erinyes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The connection with Dionysian ritual is usually assumed, though there is scarcely any evidence.  Masks are found elsewhere in religious drama, but comparisons can be perilous.  The best works on the origins of tragedy available in English are two books by Pickard-Cambridge, but one must beware, in Dithyramb, Tragedy, and Comedy, of the later additions by the eccentric TBL Webster, who had a thing about satyrs and sex imagery. </p>
<p>Aeschylus' audience would have scant knowledge of human sacrifice except as something they associated with barbarous peoples and primitive times.  There are Greek myths, as in the story of Idomeneus' return from Troy, but what religious significance they had by the V Century, it is hard to tell.  The murders in the Oresteia, so far from reintegrating community, are seen as highly destructive.  Matricide is a terrifying thing for the Greeks--in Aristophanes Clouds the mere threat of Pheidippides to beat his mother arouses his father to burn down Socrates' think-tank.  </p>
<p>Finally, there is a good deal in this and other Greek plays about false identity, and that is partly because the anagnorisis is so important.  There is also, however, a lot of emphasis put on the way Clytaemestra trapped Agamemnon with a net. Some fanciful (though not necessary incorrect) interpreters would see a connection between the net, the so-called carpet--really strewn fabrics--and the rags worn by the Erinyes.</p>
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		<title>By: Sempronius</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-184386</link>
		<dc:creator>Sempronius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-184386</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;An acute question on concealment and disguise. If Aristotle is right about tragedy, that one principal element is the revelation of what was previously unknown or concealed (anagnorisis scenes)... and without this element there would be no such thing as mystery...&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;

&quot;Tragos&quot;,mystery,revelation.All of this points to the religious origins of Greek drama and,if I&#039;m not mistaken,the ceremonies surrounding the cult of Dionysius.Probably this accounts for the use of masks and costumes;as a means to emphasize the element of concealment,as well as a continuation of the sacramental nature of religious rites from which Tragedy is derived.

Does Orestes&#039; murder of Clytemnestra provide an echo of some kind of primal sacrifice designed to restore the community to its pristine state?Would Aeschylus&#039; audience have interpreted it as such?Do all the murders in the Oresteia amount to ONE BIG MURDER that has to be understood, and assimilated in one manner or other,by the Polis and its citizens?

Finally,(sorry to put you through your paces Fleming) is there any significance in the fact that Clytemnestra was killed by her son while in disguise,as opposed to Agamemnon by his wife using dissimulation?&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>An acute question on concealment and disguise. If Aristotle is right about tragedy, that one principal element is the revelation of what was previously unknown or concealed (anagnorisis scenes)... and without this element there would be no such thing as mystery...</i><i></p>
<p>"Tragos",mystery,revelation.All of this points to the religious origins of Greek drama and,if I'm not mistaken,the ceremonies surrounding the cult of Dionysius.Probably this accounts for the use of masks and costumes;as a means to emphasize the element of concealment,as well as a continuation of the sacramental nature of religious rites from which Tragedy is derived.</p>
<p>Does Orestes' murder of Clytemnestra provide an echo of some kind of primal sacrifice designed to restore the community to its pristine state?Would Aeschylus' audience have interpreted it as such?Do all the murders in the Oresteia amount to ONE BIG MURDER that has to be understood, and assimilated in one manner or other,by the Polis and its citizens?</p>
<p>Finally,(sorry to put you through your paces Fleming) is there any significance in the fact that Clytemnestra was killed by her son while in disguise,as opposed to Agamemnon by his wife using dissimulation?</i></p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-184163</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-184163</guid>
		<description>Apart from killing an adulterous wife, intra-familial violence is not well-attested in Fifth Century Greece.  That is one of the things that makes the plots of tragedies so arresting.  But, then, tragedies are usually about a society that is out of joint, and nothing is weirder than familial strife such as Hesiod (a powerful influence on Aeschylus) had predicted.  Orestes might suggest &quot;man of the mountains&quot; (from oros) or, less probably but more suggestive to the Greeks, &quot;the one who stretches or strives.  I&#039;ll  have to do a bit of checking.  

The Choephoroe is the central play of the trilolgy.  In it, the great crime of matricide is enacted, which bring the Erinyes into the middle of the drama.  In answer to an earlier question, Apollo is quite important.  This the lord of Delphi, the god of wisdom and truth and light, sweet reason and self-restraint.  Apollo&#039;s logic, which leads Orestes to kill his mother, is not however sufficient, as we shall see, and it is no accident that his name suggests the verb to kill or destroy.  

An acute question on concealment and disguise.  If Aristotle is right about tragedy, that one principal element is the revelation of what was previously unknown or concealed (anagnorisis scenes), then we are beginning to understand what tragedy is all about when we contemplate these scenes.  They are, of course, exciting, and without this element there would be no such thing as mystery or detective fiction.  (It is often said, correctly, that Sophocles&#039; Oedipus is the first and most brilliant piece of detective fiction.)  Tragedies involve the pursuit of truth under the most difficult circumstances.  What the characters--and the audience--are discovering are the great and terrible forces that lie above and below our human plane of action.  We do not always respond to great works of art, for one reason or another, but I have never read the great scenes of this play--the invocation of Agamemnon, Orestes&#039; in disguise with his mother, the murder of Clytaemestra--without a thrill of horror</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apart from killing an adulterous wife, intra-familial violence is not well-attested in Fifth Century Greece.  That is one of the things that makes the plots of tragedies so arresting.  But, then, tragedies are usually about a society that is out of joint, and nothing is weirder than familial strife such as Hesiod (a powerful influence on Aeschylus) had predicted.  Orestes might suggest "man of the mountains" (from oros) or, less probably but more suggestive to the Greeks, "the one who stretches or strives.  I'll  have to do a bit of checking.  </p>
<p>The Choephoroe is the central play of the trilolgy.  In it, the great crime of matricide is enacted, which bring the Erinyes into the middle of the drama.  In answer to an earlier question, Apollo is quite important.  This the lord of Delphi, the god of wisdom and truth and light, sweet reason and self-restraint.  Apollo's logic, which leads Orestes to kill his mother, is not however sufficient, as we shall see, and it is no accident that his name suggests the verb to kill or destroy.  </p>
<p>An acute question on concealment and disguise.  If Aristotle is right about tragedy, that one principal element is the revelation of what was previously unknown or concealed (anagnorisis scenes), then we are beginning to understand what tragedy is all about when we contemplate these scenes.  They are, of course, exciting, and without this element there would be no such thing as mystery or detective fiction.  (It is often said, correctly, that Sophocles' Oedipus is the first and most brilliant piece of detective fiction.)  Tragedies involve the pursuit of truth under the most difficult circumstances.  What the characters--and the audience--are discovering are the great and terrible forces that lie above and below our human plane of action.  We do not always respond to great works of art, for one reason or another, but I have never read the great scenes of this play--the invocation of Agamemnon, Orestes' in disguise with his mother, the murder of Clytaemestra--without a thrill of horror</p>
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		<title>By: Sempronius</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-184153</link>
		<dc:creator>Sempronius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-184153</guid>
		<description>One other thing.Orestes and Pylades hide themselves in order to eavesdrop on Electra at Agamemnon&#039;s tomb.The practice of concealment,or in the case of Odysseus,disguise,seems to have some particular importance in these post-Trojan cycles.Would that be so?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other thing.Orestes and Pylades hide themselves in order to eavesdrop on Electra at Agamemnon's tomb.The practice of concealment,or in the case of Odysseus,disguise,seems to have some particular importance in these post-Trojan cycles.Would that be so?</p>
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		<title>By: Sempronius</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-184150</link>
		<dc:creator>Sempronius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-184150</guid>
		<description>Was there any intra-familial violence in Aeschylus&#039; time?If so,how common was it?

Does the name &quot;ORESTES&quot; mean anything in Greek?

This drama leaves me a bit unmoved.It almost seems like an elaborate filler between the AGAMEMNON and the EUMENIDES.What am I missing Dr. Fleming?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was there any intra-familial violence in Aeschylus' time?If so,how common was it?</p>
<p>Does the name "ORESTES" mean anything in Greek?</p>
<p>This drama leaves me a bit unmoved.It almost seems like an elaborate filler between the AGAMEMNON and the EUMENIDES.What am I missing Dr. Fleming?</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Cooney</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-183873</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Cooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-183873</guid>
		<description>&quot;One more round in the vendetta, which is now shaping up, additionally, as a conflict between what Apollo (and Zeus, as well?) have commanded and the ancient demands of blood enforced by the Erinyes&quot;

Is there significance in that it is Apollo who gives Orestes the command for vengeance?  Does the fact that it is Apollo matter, or is it sufficient to know that it is a command from a god?  I believe Pylades&#039; only words in the play come when he reminds Orestes of the order from Apollo.  And Dr. Fleming points out that having a third character speak is unusual.  So I&#039;m wondering if there is something significant about Apollo&#039;s role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"One more round in the vendetta, which is now shaping up, additionally, as a conflict between what Apollo (and Zeus, as well?) have commanded and the ancient demands of blood enforced by the Erinyes"</p>
<p>Is there significance in that it is Apollo who gives Orestes the command for vengeance?  Does the fact that it is Apollo matter, or is it sufficient to know that it is a command from a god?  I believe Pylades' only words in the play come when he reminds Orestes of the order from Apollo.  And Dr. Fleming points out that having a third character speak is unusual.  So I'm wondering if there is something significant about Apollo's role.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-183869</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-183869</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t want to anticipate the discussion of the Eumenides. LEt us say that the conventional opinion is that Aeschylus is celebrating the Periclean &quot;reforms&quot; that diminished the power of families, clans, the aristocracy, and tradition.  The pouring of libations to the gods was a standard part of many Greek religious rituals.  I do not entirely subscribe to the view that it is simply a replacement for blood, because the Greeks continued to practice animal sacrifice, but that must be an important element.  Two books by Walter Burkert might be looked at with profit: Homo Necans  and Greek Religion.  Of course this play takes its title from the chorus who bear the choai, libations poured out to the gods or heroes.  (Agamemnon is certainly treated as a heros, that is, a man so great in life that his spirit holds power in the afterlife, particularly over the region in which he is buried.  The cult of a hero is quite different from a cult of the Olympians.  The basic difference is that heroes are venerated by offerings put or poured into the ground rather than poured out or burned on an offering in the sight of heaven.  In this respect, they are like the chthonic deities--Hades, the Erinyes, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't want to anticipate the discussion of the Eumenides. LEt us say that the conventional opinion is that Aeschylus is celebrating the Periclean "reforms" that diminished the power of families, clans, the aristocracy, and tradition.  The pouring of libations to the gods was a standard part of many Greek religious rituals.  I do not entirely subscribe to the view that it is simply a replacement for blood, because the Greeks continued to practice animal sacrifice, but that must be an important element.  Two books by Walter Burkert might be looked at with profit: Homo Necans  and Greek Religion.  Of course this play takes its title from the chorus who bear the choai, libations poured out to the gods or heroes.  (Agamemnon is certainly treated as a heros, that is, a man so great in life that his spirit holds power in the afterlife, particularly over the region in which he is buried.  The cult of a hero is quite different from a cult of the Olympians.  The basic difference is that heroes are venerated by offerings put or poured into the ground rather than poured out or burned on an offering in the sight of heaven.  In this respect, they are like the chthonic deities--Hades, the Erinyes, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Sempronius</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-183864</link>
		<dc:creator>Sempronius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-183864</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;The family and clan are the center of Athenian life both in 458 and for some generations to come. What does seem to be happening here, though, is that Aeschylus is responding to change and social disturbance by showing the corruption of this family.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;

In essence then family corruption and its consequences for society are at the heart of the trilogy.

Is Aeschylus pining for &quot;the good old days&quot;, or is he condemning them? What is unclear to me is what Aeschylus,and his audience,made of all this.Or was his approach much more nuanced and complex than a simple matter of pro or con?

&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt; &quot;If people want some material on clan politics and Cleisthenes’ reforms, I do have some in my lectures.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;

Yes, by all means,send as much as you&#039;ve got.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>"The family and clan are the center of Athenian life both in 458 and for some generations to come. What does seem to be happening here, though, is that Aeschylus is responding to change and social disturbance by showing the corruption of this family."</i><i></p>
<p>In essence then family corruption and its consequences for society are at the heart of the trilogy.</p>
<p>Is Aeschylus pining for "the good old days", or is he condemning them? What is unclear to me is what Aeschylus,and his audience,made of all this.Or was his approach much more nuanced and complex than a simple matter of pro or con?</p>
<p></i><i> "If people want some material on clan politics and Cleisthenes’ reforms, I do have some in my lectures."</i><i></p>
<p>Yes, by all means,send as much as you've got.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-183863</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-183863</guid>
		<description>This is probably a mundane question, but what is the significance of pouring out (some) of the presumably wine in connection with the funeral?  I noticed this also in the Iliad wrt feasts on behalf of the god(s).  Is this in any way related to the Hebrew practice of pouring out the blood from animals onto the altar?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is probably a mundane question, but what is the significance of pouring out (some) of the presumably wine in connection with the funeral?  I noticed this also in the Iliad wrt feasts on behalf of the god(s).  Is this in any way related to the Hebrew practice of pouring out the blood from animals onto the altar?</p>
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		<title>By: T. Chan</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/12/15/oresteia-iii-choephoroe/comment-page-1/#comment-183814</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Chan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=821#comment-183814</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If people want some material on clan politics and Cleisthenes’ reforms, I do have some in my lectures.&lt;/i&gt;

Dr. Fleming, I would be interested in reading this--could you please post it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If people want some material on clan politics and Cleisthenes’ reforms, I do have some in my lectures.</i></p>
<p>Dr. Fleming, I would be interested in reading this--could you please post it?</p>
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