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	<title>Comments on: Oresteia I</title>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182389</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Scene Two: The Herald and Clytaemestra

The Herald enters at 503, thanking the gods for being able to die on his native soil and announcing the return of King Agamemnon.  He is not a servant but a descendant of a noble family with this hereditary duty.  A bit of verbal play, so dear to Aeschylus: While earlier it was Agamemnon who submitted to the yoke of necessity, here he is thrusting it upon the Trojans .  Unfortunately, we have also learned that the Greeks have laid waste the shrines and temples.  The sadness of war is well-conveyed in the greetings exchanged between Herald and Chorus.  It is good to remember that Athens was at war with Persia in 499 (the Ionian Revolt) 490 (Marathon) and again from 480 down past the production of the trilogy.  Like the Homeric heroes, the Athenians and their allies were attacking an Asiatic power that had violated divine principles of justice and like Agamemnon, Athens would proceed to imitate the injustice of her enemy.


Clytaemestra enters, with feigned joy--she will later compare the return of a husband to the coolness of a house in the heat of summer.  Here she wraps him up in enigmas.  He will return to find her as loyal as when he left her, unchanged.  She leaves and the Chorus questions the Herald about the aftermath of the war.  Menelaus has disappeared in storm that destroyed much of the fleet.  The Herald would rather not mar the day with allusions to the Greeks&#039; bad luck, but he is urged to tell the story of how the avenging Erinyes inflicted divine wrath on the impious Greeks.  Typical of the trilogy is Aeschylus&#039; paradoxical phrase, the paian of the Furies--a paian being a song of healing and triumph sung to Apollo.  Remember this later, when Apollo and the Furies are opposed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scene Two: The Herald and Clytaemestra</p>
<p>The Herald enters at 503, thanking the gods for being able to die on his native soil and announcing the return of King Agamemnon.  He is not a servant but a descendant of a noble family with this hereditary duty.  A bit of verbal play, so dear to Aeschylus: While earlier it was Agamemnon who submitted to the yoke of necessity, here he is thrusting it upon the Trojans .  Unfortunately, we have also learned that the Greeks have laid waste the shrines and temples.  The sadness of war is well-conveyed in the greetings exchanged between Herald and Chorus.  It is good to remember that Athens was at war with Persia in 499 (the Ionian Revolt) 490 (Marathon) and again from 480 down past the production of the trilogy.  Like the Homeric heroes, the Athenians and their allies were attacking an Asiatic power that had violated divine principles of justice and like Agamemnon, Athens would proceed to imitate the injustice of her enemy.</p>
<p>Clytaemestra enters, with feigned joy--she will later compare the return of a husband to the coolness of a house in the heat of summer.  Here she wraps him up in enigmas.  He will return to find her as loyal as when he left her, unchanged.  She leaves and the Chorus questions the Herald about the aftermath of the war.  Menelaus has disappeared in storm that destroyed much of the fleet.  The Herald would rather not mar the day with allusions to the Greeks' bad luck, but he is urged to tell the story of how the avenging Erinyes inflicted divine wrath on the impious Greeks.  Typical of the trilogy is Aeschylus' paradoxical phrase, the paian of the Furies--a paian being a song of healing and triumph sung to Apollo.  Remember this later, when Apollo and the Furies are opposed.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182385</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 21:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182385</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ll avoid the black hole by posting a part II, when it happens.  Zeus is not so much a vindictive demon as a just god who makes the rules.  When we break them, we destroy ourselves.  The question is, where is the exit from the iron law of necessity?  I&#039;ll take up the questions briefly in the next summary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We'll avoid the black hole by posting a part II, when it happens.  Zeus is not so much a vindictive demon as a just god who makes the rules.  When we break them, we destroy ourselves.  The question is, where is the exit from the iron law of necessity?  I'll take up the questions briefly in the next summary.</p>
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		<title>By: Sempronius</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182383</link>
		<dc:creator>Sempronius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 20:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182383</guid>
		<description>Fear not Josh.That black hole will not deter me.The play is just getting started.Fleming is enjoying himself writing Socratic dialogues at the moment.He shall return presently to Argos,and to scenes of murder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fear not Josh.That black hole will not deter me.The play is just getting started.Fleming is enjoying himself writing Socratic dialogues at the moment.He shall return presently to Argos,and to scenes of murder.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Cooney</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182202</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Cooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182202</guid>
		<description>Far be it for me to criticize Greek ideas, but the justice of Zeus seems a bit harsh.  I understand the basic wisdom that if one violates the law of Zeus, one is bound pay for it in some way.  It’s a good starting point.  But I sense that there is more to Aeschylus’ Zeus than merciless revenge.  The chorus seems to be wrestling with the suffering that war and justice require.  I’m sure this is where liberal interpretations see that the old code of Zeus is archaic and should be replaced by the “progressive” laws of men.  Again, this is where my Christian assumptions can’t help but enter my mind.  What if Zeus is a god of justice and mercy?  I have a feeling this work is more about getting to the truth about the nature of Zeus than about replacing him in favor of the ideas of men.  

The experience of this play (for me) is similar to that of reading the Book of Job.  I can’t quite grasp the full meaning and purpose but I know it is grappling with the ultimate questions.  The mysterious relationship between suffering and wisdom also is a point of similarity.  Job seems to resolve itself around faith.  Though the Hebrew word for faith, “Emunah,” may be better translated in terms of trust, endurance and perseverance.  I don’t know how Greeks would relate to this concept.  

Around line 750 (Loeb) the chorus seems to take up the tension of fate and free will.  I’m not sure I’m reading this correctly, but they seem to question the necessity of an inevitable doom once sin enters a household.   They seem to reserve the possibility that a man may choose to be righteous and thus pass this righteousness on to his progeny.  Perhaps the House of Atreus is not forced to continue its cycle of bloody vengeance.

“But old Arrogance is like to bring forth in evil men…at the fated hour of birth, a young Arrogance and that spirit irresistible, unconquerable, unholy, even Recklessness,--black Curses unto the household, and like are they to their parents.
“But Righteousness shineth in smoke-begrimed dwellings and holdeth in esteem him that is virtuous.”

I’m not sure what to say about Clytemnestra.  Certainly, she is a few paces ahead of her husband.  The Chorus is very suspicious of her intentions, as she makes a remark about how faithful she has been.  They mutter, why would one raise the issue if one has nothing to hide? 

Question:  Perhaps this should be clear, but I don’t quite follow the story of the lion’s whelp.  Who or what does this signify?

Where has everyone run off?  This is not a good sign as we drift towards the inevitable black hole of the dreaded second page.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Far be it for me to criticize Greek ideas, but the justice of Zeus seems a bit harsh.  I understand the basic wisdom that if one violates the law of Zeus, one is bound pay for it in some way.  It’s a good starting point.  But I sense that there is more to Aeschylus’ Zeus than merciless revenge.  The chorus seems to be wrestling with the suffering that war and justice require.  I’m sure this is where liberal interpretations see that the old code of Zeus is archaic and should be replaced by the “progressive” laws of men.  Again, this is where my Christian assumptions can’t help but enter my mind.  What if Zeus is a god of justice and mercy?  I have a feeling this work is more about getting to the truth about the nature of Zeus than about replacing him in favor of the ideas of men.  </p>
<p>The experience of this play (for me) is similar to that of reading the Book of Job.  I can’t quite grasp the full meaning and purpose but I know it is grappling with the ultimate questions.  The mysterious relationship between suffering and wisdom also is a point of similarity.  Job seems to resolve itself around faith.  Though the Hebrew word for faith, “Emunah,” may be better translated in terms of trust, endurance and perseverance.  I don’t know how Greeks would relate to this concept.  </p>
<p>Around line 750 (Loeb) the chorus seems to take up the tension of fate and free will.  I’m not sure I’m reading this correctly, but they seem to question the necessity of an inevitable doom once sin enters a household.   They seem to reserve the possibility that a man may choose to be righteous and thus pass this righteousness on to his progeny.  Perhaps the House of Atreus is not forced to continue its cycle of bloody vengeance.</p>
<p>“But old Arrogance is like to bring forth in evil men…at the fated hour of birth, a young Arrogance and that spirit irresistible, unconquerable, unholy, even Recklessness,--black Curses unto the household, and like are they to their parents.<br />
“But Righteousness shineth in smoke-begrimed dwellings and holdeth in esteem him that is virtuous.”</p>
<p>I’m not sure what to say about Clytemnestra.  Certainly, she is a few paces ahead of her husband.  The Chorus is very suspicious of her intentions, as she makes a remark about how faithful she has been.  They mutter, why would one raise the issue if one has nothing to hide? </p>
<p>Question:  Perhaps this should be clear, but I don’t quite follow the story of the lion’s whelp.  Who or what does this signify?</p>
<p>Where has everyone run off?  This is not a good sign as we drift towards the inevitable black hole of the dreaded second page.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182125</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182125</guid>
		<description>Scene One: Clytaemestra and Chorus and First Stasimon

The chorus is overjoyed to learn from Clytaemestra that Troy has been taken, but pressing her for  proof they are told of the light signals that had been set up.  One can visualize the lights as being kindled by the flames of burning Troy.  The queen shows her rhetorical, even magical skill in  hoping that the Achaeans have been pious enough to refrain from attacking the shrines of the captured town (337 ff.)  She knows that boys will be boys, but even if they do not offend the gods and reach home safely, &quot;the suffering of the dead ones might become awake--oh may not fresh/unexpected evil occur!....May the good prevail.&quot;  It is as if she has already been weaving the net in which she shall trap her husband.


The chorus sings the first stasimon, an ode to the justice of Zeus.  Immoderate wealth and success breed the arrogance the leads to ruin.  This is, in a nutshell, the Greek wisdom.  &quot;It has been said by some one that the gods deign not to be mindful of mortals who trample underfoot the grace of inviolable sanctities.&quot;  This is meant to apply to Priam, but Agamemnon&#039;s conquest of Troy, soon to be reenacted by him in walking on the expensive textiles his wife spreads before him. 


Paris was too clever, and in stealing Helen he only brought ruin to his city.  A beautiful picture is drawn of Menelaus longing for his absent wife, whom he sees in dreams.  This is converted into the longing that the soldier&#039;s families have for their return, but all that come back are urns filled with ashes.  &quot;For Ares barters the bodies of men for gold.&quot;  What a line: It perfectly captures the horror of wars waged for loot and, worse, for &quot;another man&#039;s wife.&quot;  Here is our first hint that all may not be well at Argos, where the sons of Atreus are resented for this ruinous war.  &quot;It weighs heavy, the wrathful voice of citizens; it pays the people-ordained debt/office of a curse.  Now they hint that Agamemnon may be like Priam, the mountaintop that is struck first by lighteninng.  However, they conclude with a prayer for good fortune and good omens. &quot;Whoever prays otherwise for this city, let him reap the sin of his mind, that is, if anyone is using duplicitous language to bring the city to harm, let him pay for his ill intentions.  I do not think they consciously mean the queen, but the words apply to her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scene One: Clytaemestra and Chorus and First Stasimon</p>
<p>The chorus is overjoyed to learn from Clytaemestra that Troy has been taken, but pressing her for  proof they are told of the light signals that had been set up.  One can visualize the lights as being kindled by the flames of burning Troy.  The queen shows her rhetorical, even magical skill in  hoping that the Achaeans have been pious enough to refrain from attacking the shrines of the captured town (337 ff.)  She knows that boys will be boys, but even if they do not offend the gods and reach home safely, "the suffering of the dead ones might become awake--oh may not fresh/unexpected evil occur!....May the good prevail."  It is as if she has already been weaving the net in which she shall trap her husband.</p>
<p>The chorus sings the first stasimon, an ode to the justice of Zeus.  Immoderate wealth and success breed the arrogance the leads to ruin.  This is, in a nutshell, the Greek wisdom.  "It has been said by some one that the gods deign not to be mindful of mortals who trample underfoot the grace of inviolable sanctities."  This is meant to apply to Priam, but Agamemnon's conquest of Troy, soon to be reenacted by him in walking on the expensive textiles his wife spreads before him. </p>
<p>Paris was too clever, and in stealing Helen he only brought ruin to his city.  A beautiful picture is drawn of Menelaus longing for his absent wife, whom he sees in dreams.  This is converted into the longing that the soldier's families have for their return, but all that come back are urns filled with ashes.  "For Ares barters the bodies of men for gold."  What a line: It perfectly captures the horror of wars waged for loot and, worse, for "another man's wife."  Here is our first hint that all may not be well at Argos, where the sons of Atreus are resented for this ruinous war.  "It weighs heavy, the wrathful voice of citizens; it pays the people-ordained debt/office of a curse.  Now they hint that Agamemnon may be like Priam, the mountaintop that is struck first by lighteninng.  However, they conclude with a prayer for good fortune and good omens. "Whoever prays otherwise for this city, let him reap the sin of his mind, that is, if anyone is using duplicitous language to bring the city to harm, let him pay for his ill intentions.  I do not think they consciously mean the queen, but the words apply to her.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182069</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182069</guid>
		<description>The great Walter Burkert has devoted a major book, Hom Necans, to the question of human sacrifice among neolithic societies and the substitution of animal sacrifices.  The Greeks preserved myths and legends of human sacrifice, which they generally found, like cannibalism, revolting.  

There is a constant elevation of Zeus to the supreme god of justice, from Homer and Hesiod down to Aeschylus.  That is the burden of Sir Hugh Lloyd Jones&#039; The Justice of Zeus, which I have always found persuasive.  In Aeschylus we see an almost prophetic glimpse of such a ruler, stripped of some of the more odious mythological details, but not an abstraction either.  Let us watch as his character unfolds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The great Walter Burkert has devoted a major book, Hom Necans, to the question of human sacrifice among neolithic societies and the substitution of animal sacrifices.  The Greeks preserved myths and legends of human sacrifice, which they generally found, like cannibalism, revolting.  </p>
<p>There is a constant elevation of Zeus to the supreme god of justice, from Homer and Hesiod down to Aeschylus.  That is the burden of Sir Hugh Lloyd Jones' The Justice of Zeus, which I have always found persuasive.  In Aeschylus we see an almost prophetic glimpse of such a ruler, stripped of some of the more odious mythological details, but not an abstraction either.  Let us watch as his character unfolds.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Cooney</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182031</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Cooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182031</guid>
		<description>When I say &quot;primitive,&quot; I certainly mean prior to Greek civilization.  I wouldn&#039;t want to be thought of calling the Greeks primitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I say "primitive," I certainly mean prior to Greek civilization.  I wouldn't want to be thought of calling the Greeks primitive.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Cooney</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182028</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh Cooney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182028</guid>
		<description>Were human sacrifices common in primitive cultures?  If so, are animal sacrifices--which seem universal in the ancient world--an extension of some kind of primitive urge to make live sacrifice?  In other words, why is sacrifice seemingly central to human religious experience?  Is there any evolutionary explanation?  

The description of Iphigenia&#039;s murder seems directed at invoking pity for the poor girl.  Are we also to pity Clytaemestra?  But, then, she is carrying on an affair, and is perhaps more interested in her own power and vanity than avenging her daughter&#039;s murder.  The watchman and the chorus seem very anxious about what is going to happen to the city, and this seems to be where the curse on the house of Atreus comes in.  The elders must expect that more blood will be shed.  

On the Ode to Zeus: I&#039;m probably looking at this from Christian assumptions, but does Aesychlus reflect a movement towards a more unified god of power and wisdom?  Is he phasing out the other gods?  Making God less human and more godlike?  A prefigurement of the Christian understanding of God?  Perhaps I&#039;m reaching here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Were human sacrifices common in primitive cultures?  If so, are animal sacrifices--which seem universal in the ancient world--an extension of some kind of primitive urge to make live sacrifice?  In other words, why is sacrifice seemingly central to human religious experience?  Is there any evolutionary explanation?  </p>
<p>The description of Iphigenia's murder seems directed at invoking pity for the poor girl.  Are we also to pity Clytaemestra?  But, then, she is carrying on an affair, and is perhaps more interested in her own power and vanity than avenging her daughter's murder.  The watchman and the chorus seem very anxious about what is going to happen to the city, and this seems to be where the curse on the house of Atreus comes in.  The elders must expect that more blood will be shed.  </p>
<p>On the Ode to Zeus: I'm probably looking at this from Christian assumptions, but does Aesychlus reflect a movement towards a more unified god of power and wisdom?  Is he phasing out the other gods?  Making God less human and more godlike?  A prefigurement of the Christian understanding of God?  Perhaps I'm reaching here.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-182007</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-182007</guid>
		<description>the -odos element is actually hodos, road or way, and the para would normally mean, in this compound, either beside or towards.  Parodos in ordinary speech meant a passage or a passing by but it also meant a coming forward to speak in the assembly.  Here it refers to the entrance of the chorus, who might have been perceived, so I imagine, as coming in from the side.  Thus it the parodos is both their marching in as well as their singing of the ode &lt;from adein, sing, which would otherwise be known as a stasimon, that is, a song sung after the chorus has taken up a position on the dance floor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the -odos element is actually hodos, road or way, and the para would normally mean, in this compound, either beside or towards.  Parodos in ordinary speech meant a passage or a passing by but it also meant a coming forward to speak in the assembly.  Here it refers to the entrance of the chorus, who might have been perceived, so I imagine, as coming in from the side.  Thus it the parodos is both their marching in as well as their singing of the ode &lt;from adein, sing, which would otherwise be known as a stasimon, that is, a song sung after the chorus has taken up a position on the dance floor.</p>
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		<title>By: Etienne Gervaise</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/11/14/oresteia-i/comment-page-1/#comment-181970</link>
		<dc:creator>Etienne Gervaise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=784#comment-181970</guid>
		<description>@18 Joe

Your prayers are appreciated.  The CIC is only part of the game.  It was congress that lost the Vietnam police action, it was Nixon who ended the Kennedy/Johnson fiasco.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@18 Joe</p>
<p>Your prayers are appreciated.  The CIC is only part of the game.  It was congress that lost the Vietnam police action, it was Nixon who ended the Kennedy/Johnson fiasco.</p>
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