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	<title>Comments on: The Lessons of Greed</title>
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	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Flinn</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180926</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Flinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 14:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180926</guid>
		<description>Asking the major parties to &quot;fix&quot; the economy is like asking the Mafia to &quot;fix&quot; the crime problem.  I guarantee it will be &quot;fixed.&quot;  I see the economic situation today as a golden opportunity for Catholic spokesmen to shout from the rooftops the social doctrine of the Church as expounded in the papal encyclicals, the distributists like Belloc, Chesterton and others, and Catholic economists like Heinrich Pesch.  Unfortunately, all I hear are the Sounds of Silence.  Dr. Fleming is correct about the American attitude toward homes today.  Houses are like stocks and bonds.  I can remember growing up in Southern Indiana, my father always talking about making the monthly &quot;place payment.&quot;  I never once heard him refer to it as a &quot;house payment.&quot;  The difference?  He had a traditional view of property ownership.  It gave him and his family a &quot;place&quot; in the world, not just a temporary stopoff point until he could profit from the next jump in housing prices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asking the major parties to "fix" the economy is like asking the Mafia to "fix" the crime problem.  I guarantee it will be "fixed."  I see the economic situation today as a golden opportunity for Catholic spokesmen to shout from the rooftops the social doctrine of the Church as expounded in the papal encyclicals, the distributists like Belloc, Chesterton and others, and Catholic economists like Heinrich Pesch.  Unfortunately, all I hear are the Sounds of Silence.  Dr. Fleming is correct about the American attitude toward homes today.  Houses are like stocks and bonds.  I can remember growing up in Southern Indiana, my father always talking about making the monthly "place payment."  I never once heard him refer to it as a "house payment."  The difference?  He had a traditional view of property ownership.  It gave him and his family a "place" in the world, not just a temporary stopoff point until he could profit from the next jump in housing prices.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180701</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180701</guid>
		<description>The Dakyns version on Gutenberg is fine, and I shall use it to quote from except where I have a point to make about the Greek text.  I don&#039;t know how it got removed.  A Halloween prank? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Dakyns version on Gutenberg is fine, and I shall use it to quote from except where I have a point to make about the Greek text.  I don't know how it got removed.  A Halloween prank?</p>
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		<title>By: MAP</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180700</link>
		<dc:creator>MAP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180700</guid>
		<description>I should add that I believe Spengler predicted that the collapse of models would lead to the collapse of our world view and, consequently, our culture. He believed that physics was already crumbling in his day. A review of the nonsense known as string theory leads one to believe he may have been correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that I believe Spengler predicted that the collapse of models would lead to the collapse of our world view and, consequently, our culture. He believed that physics was already crumbling in his day. A review of the nonsense known as string theory leads one to believe he may have been correct.</p>
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		<title>By: MAP</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180698</link>
		<dc:creator>MAP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180698</guid>
		<description>I believe JE @ 100 brings us back to the earlier topic of models in economics, but is true of all models in general. These are created to explain observed phenomena and are used to predict other phenomena. The model itself, however, does not really exist in nature. It is like the Platonic realm of perfect forms, but the realm resides only in the human mind. Since it is a tool for prediction it serves as a tool for technology and exploitation of the natural world. Many have the mistaken belief that nature is explained through models, but this is untrue because models don’t exist outside of the human mind which creates them. This is why models are constantly being adjusted to meet new data. Newton’s view of the world was two dimensional, Einstein’s was three; yet each attempts to explain certain sets of data. Math in general (in contradiction to Plato) exists only in the human mind. It was this conclusion (with his proof that there is no set of all sets) that caused Bertrand Russell to sell his math books and pursue philosophy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe JE @ 100 brings us back to the earlier topic of models in economics, but is true of all models in general. These are created to explain observed phenomena and are used to predict other phenomena. The model itself, however, does not really exist in nature. It is like the Platonic realm of perfect forms, but the realm resides only in the human mind. Since it is a tool for prediction it serves as a tool for technology and exploitation of the natural world. Many have the mistaken belief that nature is explained through models, but this is untrue because models don’t exist outside of the human mind which creates them. This is why models are constantly being adjusted to meet new data. Newton’s view of the world was two dimensional, Einstein’s was three; yet each attempts to explain certain sets of data. Math in general (in contradiction to Plato) exists only in the human mind. It was this conclusion (with his proof that there is no set of all sets) that caused Bertrand Russell to sell his math books and pursue philosophy.</p>
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		<title>By: Allen Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180691</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 03:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180691</guid>
		<description>I wonder how what JE says would relate to some things I have read in the past about how most people are so totally lost in thought that they dont really see the world around them. Their lives are spent in thought, which in it&#039;s essence (correctly me if I&#039;m wrong) is a form of abstraction since the thought is not the thing.

In other words, people are so lost in thought that they walk into walls or run stoplights before they realize it. They weren&#039;t in the car driving, they were examining reddish rocks on Mars or arguing with someone who&#039;s been dead for years. Have you ever wondered why people cut their fingers of with saws? 

There is a big difference between that and being silently aware of yourself and your surroundings at the present moment. It is the present moment that is reality. It is what must be understood and dealt with. There is nothing else, all else is thought inside your own head and therefore abstract and not real. That&#039;s not to say that thought or intellectual endeavours are useless, but they shouldn&#039;t be allowed to take over and turn us into people so lost in abstraction that we become ideologues or run stoplights and kill people. 

Applying this to economics, if people would just get their households into order by dealing with their present needs and plan for future ones, and stop letting those thoughts tell them that they need this expensive dress or that bass boat, there would be little or no need for such abstract &#039;sciences&#039; as microeconomics or macroeconomics, whatever those phantoms are supposed to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how what JE says would relate to some things I have read in the past about how most people are so totally lost in thought that they dont really see the world around them. Their lives are spent in thought, which in it's essence (correctly me if I'm wrong) is a form of abstraction since the thought is not the thing.</p>
<p>In other words, people are so lost in thought that they walk into walls or run stoplights before they realize it. They weren't in the car driving, they were examining reddish rocks on Mars or arguing with someone who's been dead for years. Have you ever wondered why people cut their fingers of with saws? </p>
<p>There is a big difference between that and being silently aware of yourself and your surroundings at the present moment. It is the present moment that is reality. It is what must be understood and dealt with. There is nothing else, all else is thought inside your own head and therefore abstract and not real. That's not to say that thought or intellectual endeavours are useless, but they shouldn't be allowed to take over and turn us into people so lost in abstraction that we become ideologues or run stoplights and kill people. </p>
<p>Applying this to economics, if people would just get their households into order by dealing with their present needs and plan for future ones, and stop letting those thoughts tell them that they need this expensive dress or that bass boat, there would be little or no need for such abstract 'sciences' as microeconomics or macroeconomics, whatever those phantoms are supposed to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew G. Van Sant</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180689</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew G. Van Sant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 02:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180689</guid>
		<description>Allen Wilson @91:
Apparently the Project Gutenberg version is not acceptable.  I posted a link to it, but it has been removed.

Dr. Fleming @98:
Are you referring to the ISI college guides?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allen Wilson @91:<br />
Apparently the Project Gutenberg version is not acceptable.  I posted a link to it, but it has been removed.</p>
<p>Dr. Fleming @98:<br />
Are you referring to the ISI college guides?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180679</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180679</guid>
		<description>JE @100 &quot;(Abelard was the first, I think, to note that, if this were true, then humans could create ex nihilo; which puts a saliently luciferan spin on this sort of Idealism.)

I quite agree. Its more popular and modern manifestation is the neo-con&#039;s penchant for using contradiction of terms such as their favorite:  &quot;creative destruction.&quot; The taking of innocent life so that one might have life in abundance. The obliteration of bad governments so to add chaos to the lives of those suffering from its ill effects. As one english historian of the West put it, &quot; Our old enemies had guts and could think like the devil who inspired them. But the modernists are inspired by a little minor he-devil, with one eye and a slammer, and the result is very poor.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JE @100 "(Abelard was the first, I think, to note that, if this were true, then humans could create ex nihilo; which puts a saliently luciferan spin on this sort of Idealism.)</p>
<p>I quite agree. Its more popular and modern manifestation is the neo-con's penchant for using contradiction of terms such as their favorite:  "creative destruction." The taking of innocent life so that one might have life in abundance. The obliteration of bad governments so to add chaos to the lives of those suffering from its ill effects. As one english historian of the West put it, " Our old enemies had guts and could think like the devil who inspired them. But the modernists are inspired by a little minor he-devil, with one eye and a slammer, and the result is very poor."</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-3/#comment-180662</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180662</guid>
		<description>I wonder if JE&#039;s argument applies to the apparent inability of politicians and their dupes to distinguish between what a candidate says and what he has done or is likely to do?  Someone today told me of an infomercial giant who was asked to comment on Obama&#039;s performance last night.  He pointed out that when he promises to send you a knife that can cut a tomato can in two and then slice the tomato, he delivers the knife, but when Obama promises the moon--peace, prosperity, etc.--he cannot possibly deliver the product.  This is parallel, in a way, to Tom Wolfe&#039;s witty beginning of The Painted Word, where he cites Hiilton Kramer as saying that he could not appreciate a painter unless he had read the theory behind his work, and, yes, this is the same Hilton Kramer who founded The New Criterion.  

Underlying these aberrations is a detachment from &quot;things as they are.&quot;  A poem I grappled with in youth and then gave up on at least addresses the subject:

    
The man bent over his guitar,
A shearsman of sorts. The day was green.

They said, &quot;You have a blue guitar,
You do not play things as they are.&quot;

The man replied, &quot;Things as they are 
Are changed upon the blue guitar.&quot;

And they said then, &quot;But play, you must,
A tune beyond us, yet ourselves,

A tune upon the blue guitar
Of things exactly as they are.&quot;



I can never remember quite what conclusions I came to so long ago about what Stevens was driving at, but he raises the question, at any rate.  The causes of this dissociation are many and varied, though I would not think Petrarch played much of a part, one way or the other.  My old bugbear Ficino and his friends, though, may be guiltier than I suspected when I spent a dreadful year, as a firstyear graduate student at Chapel Hill, wrestling with Renaissance Latin under the benign, though severe, tutelage of Douglas Thompson.  Ficino is not always (not ever?) completely candid, but the Neoplatonists and Hermetics he adored at the peril of his soul did speak of the mastery of the elements to be gained by men who held the right ideas and knew the right words to speak to the archons who rule the planetary spheres.  I wonder if this is related to the fact that much of Renaissance science--ethical as well as natural--aims at power rather than knowledge per se or Machiavelli&#039;s power-based analysis of politics?  I fear JE&#039;s comments have led me into territory where a humble philologist and moralist should not have strayed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if JE's argument applies to the apparent inability of politicians and their dupes to distinguish between what a candidate says and what he has done or is likely to do?  Someone today told me of an infomercial giant who was asked to comment on Obama's performance last night.  He pointed out that when he promises to send you a knife that can cut a tomato can in two and then slice the tomato, he delivers the knife, but when Obama promises the moon--peace, prosperity, etc.--he cannot possibly deliver the product.  This is parallel, in a way, to Tom Wolfe's witty beginning of The Painted Word, where he cites Hiilton Kramer as saying that he could not appreciate a painter unless he had read the theory behind his work, and, yes, this is the same Hilton Kramer who founded The New Criterion.  </p>
<p>Underlying these aberrations is a detachment from "things as they are."  A poem I grappled with in youth and then gave up on at least addresses the subject:</p>
<p>The man bent over his guitar,<br />
A shearsman of sorts. The day was green.</p>
<p>They said, "You have a blue guitar,<br />
You do not play things as they are."</p>
<p>The man replied, "Things as they are<br />
Are changed upon the blue guitar."</p>
<p>And they said then, "But play, you must,<br />
A tune beyond us, yet ourselves,</p>
<p>A tune upon the blue guitar<br />
Of things exactly as they are."</p>
<p>I can never remember quite what conclusions I came to so long ago about what Stevens was driving at, but he raises the question, at any rate.  The causes of this dissociation are many and varied, though I would not think Petrarch played much of a part, one way or the other.  My old bugbear Ficino and his friends, though, may be guiltier than I suspected when I spent a dreadful year, as a firstyear graduate student at Chapel Hill, wrestling with Renaissance Latin under the benign, though severe, tutelage of Douglas Thompson.  Ficino is not always (not ever?) completely candid, but the Neoplatonists and Hermetics he adored at the peril of his soul did speak of the mastery of the elements to be gained by men who held the right ideas and knew the right words to speak to the archons who rule the planetary spheres.  I wonder if this is related to the fact that much of Renaissance science--ethical as well as natural--aims at power rather than knowledge per se or Machiavelli's power-based analysis of politics?  I fear JE's comments have led me into territory where a humble philologist and moralist should not have strayed.</p>
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		<title>By: JE</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-2/#comment-180658</link>
		<dc:creator>JE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180658</guid>
		<description>Re. Xenophon the non-theorist: I do think that &#039;avoiding theoretical drivel&#039; is more in order these days than ever before -- if only because of modernity&#039;s self-satisfied worship of meaninglessness, which makes all its &#039;theories&#039; roughly Platonist, but (unlike Plato himself) unromantic. This may be the end result of Petrarch&#039;s subjugation of philosophy to politics (esse to operatio!); but if this is the political-rhetorical error, the philosophical errors run much deeper, and into distant antiquity. Pray pardon a digressive rant against today&#039;s gnostic theorizers, or if not, then quite reasonably ignore the following:

The problem is, in short, Not Paying Attention to Things. Ideologizing is the political-rhetorical manifestation of platonizing abstracts: abstracts are really just that, ab-stract, having no real being except in (first) substances. The moderate realism on the problem of the universals, more or less agreed upon by the (pre-nominalist) Scholastics -- whatever profound gulf divides the fully-fleshed Thomistic and Scotistic metaphysics of the univerals -- strongly affirms this, as Aristotle had begun to insist against Plato. Analytic philosophers today are rushing in this direction too, through the slightly odd but perfectly sensible medium of (modal) logic. I suspect this is culturally motivated, at least within the &#039;science&#039;-worshipping academic culture, by the raw primacy of sense-observation inexorably required by post-Newtonian physics.

But the trouble is that, whatever a few (and in many other respects quite foolish) philosophers claim to think, virtually *everybody* today thinks ideologically, or rather Ideally, at more or less every verbal moment of their lives. We worship &#039;Mere Words as Such&#039; -- when they don&#039;t really stand for Real Things at all; we don&#039;t distinguish meaning and reference, or imagination and abstraction, because we don&#039;t know the difference between Bodies and Bugaboos. As if a finite being could imagine abstracts! (Abelard was the first, I think, to note that, if this were true, then humans could create ex nihilo; which puts a saliently luciferan spin on this sort of Idealism.)

This so far might be merely carelessness, the slothful man&#039;s unwitting slouch toward satan -- but the really loathsome gnostic violation committed by the Idealists (and ultimately Plato) was the blindness to bodies that this hypostasization entails. But just the contrary to this &#039;blindness to bodies&#039; is the historical fact that lies at the heart, or rather mystically *is* the Heart, of Christianity. No body-hater can love the Incarnate; all ideologues are political-rhetorical body-haters; so every ideologue is politically-rhetorically denying the Incarnation. (But the physicality of the political-rhetorical denial is the actual crucifixion of the Body of the Incarnate.)

At least the practical non-theorist, who simply knows How to Get Things Done in the World -- and Xenophon knows this masterfully -- precisely in his practicality, is not blind to bodies!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. Xenophon the non-theorist: I do think that 'avoiding theoretical drivel' is more in order these days than ever before -- if only because of modernity's self-satisfied worship of meaninglessness, which makes all its 'theories' roughly Platonist, but (unlike Plato himself) unromantic. This may be the end result of Petrarch's subjugation of philosophy to politics (esse to operatio!); but if this is the political-rhetorical error, the philosophical errors run much deeper, and into distant antiquity. Pray pardon a digressive rant against today's gnostic theorizers, or if not, then quite reasonably ignore the following:</p>
<p>The problem is, in short, Not Paying Attention to Things. Ideologizing is the political-rhetorical manifestation of platonizing abstracts: abstracts are really just that, ab-stract, having no real being except in (first) substances. The moderate realism on the problem of the universals, more or less agreed upon by the (pre-nominalist) Scholastics -- whatever profound gulf divides the fully-fleshed Thomistic and Scotistic metaphysics of the univerals -- strongly affirms this, as Aristotle had begun to insist against Plato. Analytic philosophers today are rushing in this direction too, through the slightly odd but perfectly sensible medium of (modal) logic. I suspect this is culturally motivated, at least within the 'science'-worshipping academic culture, by the raw primacy of sense-observation inexorably required by post-Newtonian physics.</p>
<p>But the trouble is that, whatever a few (and in many other respects quite foolish) philosophers claim to think, virtually *everybody* today thinks ideologically, or rather Ideally, at more or less every verbal moment of their lives. We worship 'Mere Words as Such' -- when they don't really stand for Real Things at all; we don't distinguish meaning and reference, or imagination and abstraction, because we don't know the difference between Bodies and Bugaboos. As if a finite being could imagine abstracts! (Abelard was the first, I think, to note that, if this were true, then humans could create ex nihilo; which puts a saliently luciferan spin on this sort of Idealism.)</p>
<p>This so far might be merely carelessness, the slothful man's unwitting slouch toward satan -- but the really loathsome gnostic violation committed by the Idealists (and ultimately Plato) was the blindness to bodies that this hypostasization entails. But just the contrary to this 'blindness to bodies' is the historical fact that lies at the heart, or rather mystically *is* the Heart, of Christianity. No body-hater can love the Incarnate; all ideologues are political-rhetorical body-haters; so every ideologue is politically-rhetorically denying the Incarnation. (But the physicality of the political-rhetorical denial is the actual crucifixion of the Body of the Incarnate.)</p>
<p>At least the practical non-theorist, who simply knows How to Get Things Done in the World -- and Xenophon knows this masterfully -- precisely in his practicality, is not blind to bodies!</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/10/27/the-lessons-of-greed/comment-page-2/#comment-180636</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=761#comment-180636</guid>
		<description>The most difficult things to understand are often simple concepts such as:
 
&quot;Euclid alone has looked on beauty bare.&quot; 
(A poet describing first principles)

  “It is not possible to formulate a “theory” of this kind of life or to express in words its essence: it is too simple. “To love,” “to live in naked reality” – that is all that we can say with human words.”
 (A Carthusian monk describing the contemplative life)

&quot;The point, I think, is to develop a wholesome point of view by reading and studying good books in company with people of sound minds who are averse to lying.&quot; 
(Tom Fleming on Education)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most difficult things to understand are often simple concepts such as:</p>
<p>"Euclid alone has looked on beauty bare."<br />
(A poet describing first principles)</p>
<p>  “It is not possible to formulate a “theory” of this kind of life or to express in words its essence: it is too simple. “To love,” “to live in naked reality” – that is all that we can say with human words.”<br />
 (A Carthusian monk describing the contemplative life)</p>
<p>"The point, I think, is to develop a wholesome point of view by reading and studying good books in company with people of sound minds who are averse to lying."<br />
(Tom Fleming on Education)</p>
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