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	<title>Comments on: Uncle Sam&#8217;s Harem</title>
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	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179812</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179812</guid>
		<description>I thank John Seiler for his comments and hope to see more of him in the future. It has been years since I heard from him.  There is an unbroken Christian tradition regarding the position of women in society.  If some recent statements emanating from the Church seems to overturn that tradition, then we must be misreading them, as you suggest.  One way to look at it is this:  Supposing a society has sent women into the work place.  At that point, it might be regarded as wrong to erect barriers to their entering the professions or receiving appropriate promotions and compensation.  But even that would be a bit extreme, since it would be difficult to say in any given case whether a woman&#039;s career and compensation were retarded by the fact of being a woman rather than by the fact of having a husband and children, dropping out of the work force periodically, etc.  I do not propose to quarrel with two Popes, but if they were to declare that the sun rises in the West, I should politely shift the conversational topic to something they know something about.  The Church is not simply what some people in this generation say it is, though I know there are Catholics who take this position.  Dante, who put so many Popes and Cardinals into unpleasant parts of Hell, clearly did not.  The current state of the opinion in Rome is no more infallible than it was in the days of Leo X or the pornocracy.   Our duty is to be humble and listen, but if a bishop or even a Pope contradicts the long-cherished traditions of the Church, we do not have to endorse his mistake.  On the other hand, we should not make it an occasion of scandal.  I will soon by posting a part IV, on the punishment of wives by their husbands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thank John Seiler for his comments and hope to see more of him in the future. It has been years since I heard from him.  There is an unbroken Christian tradition regarding the position of women in society.  If some recent statements emanating from the Church seems to overturn that tradition, then we must be misreading them, as you suggest.  One way to look at it is this:  Supposing a society has sent women into the work place.  At that point, it might be regarded as wrong to erect barriers to their entering the professions or receiving appropriate promotions and compensation.  But even that would be a bit extreme, since it would be difficult to say in any given case whether a woman's career and compensation were retarded by the fact of being a woman rather than by the fact of having a husband and children, dropping out of the work force periodically, etc.  I do not propose to quarrel with two Popes, but if they were to declare that the sun rises in the West, I should politely shift the conversational topic to something they know something about.  The Church is not simply what some people in this generation say it is, though I know there are Catholics who take this position.  Dante, who put so many Popes and Cardinals into unpleasant parts of Hell, clearly did not.  The current state of the opinion in Rome is no more infallible than it was in the days of Leo X or the pornocracy.   Our duty is to be humble and listen, but if a bishop or even a Pope contradicts the long-cherished traditions of the Church, we do not have to endorse his mistake.  On the other hand, we should not make it an occasion of scandal.  I will soon by posting a part IV, on the punishment of wives by their husbands.</p>
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		<title>By: John Seiler</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179810</link>
		<dc:creator>John Seiler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179810</guid>
		<description>P.S. Maybe it&#039;s just that I&#039;m an old journalist who wrote too many headlines but, Dr. Fleming, you already have the best title for your book: &quot;Uncle Sam&#039;s Harem.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. Maybe it's just that I'm an old journalist who wrote too many headlines but, Dr. Fleming, you already have the best title for your book: "Uncle Sam's Harem."</p>
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		<title>By: John Seiler</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179809</link>
		<dc:creator>John Seiler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179809</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just catching up with this discussion. But I was wondering how Dr. Fleming would look on this section from the recent Catechism of the Catholic Church: &quot;2433 Access to employment and to professions must be open to all without unjust discrimination: men and women, healthy and disabled, natives and immigrants.&quot;

I suppose one could say that, given that wives should work in the home, it is not &quot;unjust&quot; to encourage them to stay there.

The late John Paul II also wrote, in a &quot;Letter to Women&quot; in 1995: &quot;4. And what shall we say of the obstacles which in so many parts of the world still keep women from being fully integrated into social, political and economic life? We need only think of how the gift of motherhood is often penalized rather than rewarded, even though humanity owes its very survival to this gift. Certainly, much remains to be done to prevent discrimination against those who have chosen to be wives and mothers. As far as personal rights are concerned, there is an urgent need to achieve real equality in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.

&quot;This is a matter of justice but also of necessity. Women will increasingly play a part in the solution of the serious problems of the future: leisure time, the quality of life, migration, social services, euthanasia, drugs, health care, the ecology, etc. In all these areas a greater presence of women in society will prove most valuable, for it will help to manifest the contradictions present when society is organized solely according to the criteria of efficiency and productivity, and it will force systems to be redesigned in a way which favours the processes of humanization which mark the &#039;civilization of love&#039;.&quot; (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html)

Maybe this is one of those passages of John Paul II&#039;s that, as John Zmirak once quipped, requires a 400-page book to elucidate. 

In any case, it&#039;s not an infallible statement. 

And the Council of Trent in the section &quot;Holy Matrimony&quot; still is pertinent: &quot;The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband&#039;s consent.

&quot;Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.&quot; (http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-m.htm)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm just catching up with this discussion. But I was wondering how Dr. Fleming would look on this section from the recent Catechism of the Catholic Church: "2433 Access to employment and to professions must be open to all without unjust discrimination: men and women, healthy and disabled, natives and immigrants."</p>
<p>I suppose one could say that, given that wives should work in the home, it is not "unjust" to encourage them to stay there.</p>
<p>The late John Paul II also wrote, in a "Letter to Women" in 1995: "4. And what shall we say of the obstacles which in so many parts of the world still keep women from being fully integrated into social, political and economic life? We need only think of how the gift of motherhood is often penalized rather than rewarded, even though humanity owes its very survival to this gift. Certainly, much remains to be done to prevent discrimination against those who have chosen to be wives and mothers. As far as personal rights are concerned, there is an urgent need to achieve real equality in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.</p>
<p>"This is a matter of justice but also of necessity. Women will increasingly play a part in the solution of the serious problems of the future: leisure time, the quality of life, migration, social services, euthanasia, drugs, health care, the ecology, etc. In all these areas a greater presence of women in society will prove most valuable, for it will help to manifest the contradictions present when society is organized solely according to the criteria of efficiency and productivity, and it will force systems to be redesigned in a way which favours the processes of humanization which mark the 'civilization of love'." (<a href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html</a>)</p>
<p>Maybe this is one of those passages of John Paul II's that, as John Zmirak once quipped, requires a 400-page book to elucidate. </p>
<p>In any case, it's not an infallible statement. </p>
<p>And the Council of Trent in the section "Holy Matrimony" still is pertinent: "The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent.</p>
<p>"Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience." (<a href="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-m.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-m.htm</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179393</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179393</guid>
		<description>Here my point was not to debunk Locke, which I did in Morality of Everyday Life but to point out his role in undermining the concept of the family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here my point was not to debunk Locke, which I did in Morality of Everyday Life but to point out his role in undermining the concept of the family.</p>
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		<title>By: robert alpert</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179357</link>
		<dc:creator>robert alpert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179357</guid>
		<description>God Bless you Thomas Fleming! I would add that Locke was more malignant than you suggest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God Bless you Thomas Fleming! I would add that Locke was more malignant than you suggest.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179219</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179219</guid>
		<description>Various  bishops and groups, as I said earlier, have uttered ridiculous statements about women nominally giving a Catholic opinion.  There is a very foolish Pastoral Letter of Irish Bishops.  None has any particular authority except as an expression of the opinion of those who drafted and signed the document.  Scripture and tradition are eminently clear on this point, and within the older traditions--Catholic and Orthodox--a woman who wishes to pursue a profession may become a nun, but even then it is generally with the approval of her parents.  I know that various stripes of liberals and radicals wish to parade their Marxism under a  Catholic banner, but they are either mistaken or deliberately duplicitous.  We have established a society in which women are routinely pressured into entering a workforce where they are economically and sexually exploited.  It is one thing to say that circumstances often compel people to make hard choices; quite another to justify the system that creates the circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Various  bishops and groups, as I said earlier, have uttered ridiculous statements about women nominally giving a Catholic opinion.  There is a very foolish Pastoral Letter of Irish Bishops.  None has any particular authority except as an expression of the opinion of those who drafted and signed the document.  Scripture and tradition are eminently clear on this point, and within the older traditions--Catholic and Orthodox--a woman who wishes to pursue a profession may become a nun, but even then it is generally with the approval of her parents.  I know that various stripes of liberals and radicals wish to parade their Marxism under a  Catholic banner, but they are either mistaken or deliberately duplicitous.  We have established a society in which women are routinely pressured into entering a workforce where they are economically and sexually exploited.  It is one thing to say that circumstances often compel people to make hard choices; quite another to justify the system that creates the circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179179</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179179</guid>
		<description>One more thing, I don&#039;t think it is honest to label Afghanistan and Pakistan as patriarchies.  It is after all a Latin term and implies a certain freedom of action on the part of the family which I don&#039;t see anywhere, except possibly at the highest levels, in the Islamic world.  It seem to me more honest to label these two countries as theocracies or maybe even anti-theocracies or even otherocracies which I don&#039;t want to print.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing, I don't think it is honest to label Afghanistan and Pakistan as patriarchies.  It is after all a Latin term and implies a certain freedom of action on the part of the family which I don't see anywhere, except possibly at the highest levels, in the Islamic world.  It seem to me more honest to label these two countries as theocracies or maybe even anti-theocracies or even otherocracies which I don't want to print.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179177</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179177</guid>
		<description>C in #s 29 &amp; 31 makes several fundamental mistakes.

First: modern schooling is not remotely education. Education has to do with formation not information.  Modern schooling has to do with programming modern people to be good little consumers and workers, &quot;to do&quot;, in John D.s words, &quot;perfectly what their parents did imperfectly&quot;.  It consists, overwhelmingly in propaganda, brainwashing, and vocational training.  And not that there is anything wrong with vocational training as everyone needs to earn a living, but it is not education.  There is no longer any &quot;Art&quot; in a Bachelor of Arts degree, just a bunch of droning lecture hours.

Second: &quot;economic growth&quot; is measured in dollars which have been multiplying exponentially since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 in order to transfer the wealth of this country to the likes of John D. Rockefeller and J. P. Morgan, etc and heirs.  The dollar has depreciated in value about 98% since then.  A dollar today is not the same thing as a dollar yesterday and they cannot logically be compared.  Things and dollar bills, the frenetic quest for which so many are over-occupied, do not make real growth.  How many people have made pilgrimages to and been inspired by the Sears Tower or a modern freeway cloverleaf versus say the Cathedral of Notre Dame, or the remains of Roman aqueducts, or Roman and Greek theatres.  With all the economic growth we have had, why are so many people so worried by the economy; why are so many people just a pay check away from losing everything they have?  With all the economic growth we have had, why, in the face of mere weather, do so many people flee from CITIES, not just beach shacks, but cities like Houston and New Orleans?  Economic growth, if anything it seems to me, should mean an eventual accumulation of lastingly valuable, ie well made, useful, beautiful, inspiring things, both material and spiritual, by individuals, families, and communities.  I don&#039;t see this!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C in #s 29 &amp; 31 makes several fundamental mistakes.</p>
<p>First: modern schooling is not remotely education. Education has to do with formation not information.  Modern schooling has to do with programming modern people to be good little consumers and workers, "to do", in John D.s words, "perfectly what their parents did imperfectly".  It consists, overwhelmingly in propaganda, brainwashing, and vocational training.  And not that there is anything wrong with vocational training as everyone needs to earn a living, but it is not education.  There is no longer any "Art" in a Bachelor of Arts degree, just a bunch of droning lecture hours.</p>
<p>Second: "economic growth" is measured in dollars which have been multiplying exponentially since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 in order to transfer the wealth of this country to the likes of John D. Rockefeller and J. P. Morgan, etc and heirs.  The dollar has depreciated in value about 98% since then.  A dollar today is not the same thing as a dollar yesterday and they cannot logically be compared.  Things and dollar bills, the frenetic quest for which so many are over-occupied, do not make real growth.  How many people have made pilgrimages to and been inspired by the Sears Tower or a modern freeway cloverleaf versus say the Cathedral of Notre Dame, or the remains of Roman aqueducts, or Roman and Greek theatres.  With all the economic growth we have had, why are so many people so worried by the economy; why are so many people just a pay check away from losing everything they have?  With all the economic growth we have had, why, in the face of mere weather, do so many people flee from CITIES, not just beach shacks, but cities like Houston and New Orleans?  Economic growth, if anything it seems to me, should mean an eventual accumulation of lastingly valuable, ie well made, useful, beautiful, inspiring things, both material and spiritual, by individuals, families, and communities.  I don't see this!</p>
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		<title>By: M.J.Harrington</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179144</link>
		<dc:creator>M.J.Harrington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179144</guid>
		<description>Dr Fleming confirms what I thought about matriarchal societies. They have a place in myth, fantasy, and sometimes in science fiction.

According to the statement of the Catholic Church to the Beijing Conference of Women in 1995:  &quot;A woman has a right to choose between having a profession, being a mother and simultaneously carrying on  a profession, and being being a mother and dedicating all her activity to the home.&quot;

That seems clear enough, and unless there is an authoritative statement to the contrary, I would infer that in carrying on a profession a woman has the right to rise to a position of leadership if her work merits it--according the the Catholic Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Fleming confirms what I thought about matriarchal societies. They have a place in myth, fantasy, and sometimes in science fiction.</p>
<p>According to the statement of the Catholic Church to the Beijing Conference of Women in 1995:  "A woman has a right to choose between having a profession, being a mother and simultaneously carrying on  a profession, and being being a mother and dedicating all her activity to the home."</p>
<p>That seems clear enough, and unless there is an authoritative statement to the contrary, I would infer that in carrying on a profession a woman has the right to rise to a position of leadership if her work merits it--according the the Catholic Church.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/09/09/uncle-sams-harem/comment-page-1/#comment-179134</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=727#comment-179134</guid>
		<description>Feminists have propagated a great deal of nonsense about matriarchy.  Some have written glowingly about the status of Iriquois women, this despite the fact that visitors to Iriquois settlements were appalled at the degradation women submitted to in a society where they did all the work and the men had all the fun (hunting game and killing the Delaware).  I spent some time going over the evidence while writing my first book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Feminists have propagated a great deal of nonsense about matriarchy.  Some have written glowingly about the status of Iriquois women, this despite the fact that visitors to Iriquois settlements were appalled at the degradation women submitted to in a society where they did all the work and the men had all the fun (hunting game and killing the Delaware).  I spent some time going over the evidence while writing my first book.</p>
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