Comments on: Poor Mexico, Poor America I http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/ Your home for traditional conservatism. Thu, 24 May 2012 03:20:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: polemicscat http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173879 polemicscat Thu, 07 Aug 2008 05:44:32 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173879 To me the overriding issue with regard to Mexican immigration is a haphazard application of law. It's not a good sign when the US turns a blind eye to the violation of certain laws and then expects other laws to be obeyed. The problem was created by the US government's failure to enforce existing law and by luring illegal immigrants in by giving them economic benefits that are often denied to US citizens who are declared by a strict reading of the law to be unqualified for such benefits. If we meant to have an unregulated border to the south, we should say so and change the law accordingly. As it is we are prosecuting some violators and excusing others without good reason. At the same time the people who go through the legal procedures to become citizens are being treated unfairly. How are supposedly intelligent people able the ignore these facts? I am forced to believe that our nation's policy or lack of policy is due to avarice and dishonesty in our leaders. To me the overriding issue with regard to Mexican immigration is a haphazard application of law. It's not a good sign when the US turns a blind eye to the violation of certain laws and then expects other laws to be obeyed. The problem was created by the US government's failure to enforce existing law and by luring illegal immigrants in by giving them economic benefits that are often denied to US citizens who are declared by a strict reading of the law to be unqualified for such benefits.

If we meant to have an unregulated border to the south, we should say so and change the law accordingly. As it is we are prosecuting some violators and excusing others without good reason. At the same time the people who go through the legal procedures to become citizens are being treated unfairly.

How are supposedly intelligent people able the ignore these facts? I am forced to believe that our nation's policy or lack of policy is due to avarice and dishonesty in our leaders.

]]> By: Sean Scallon http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173620 Sean Scallon Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:45:40 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173620 Sorry about the italics in the previous post. Speaking of Wall, here's a link to an article in VDARE.com about immigrants who are returning to Mexico, either by force, circumstance or choice, are affecting Mexican society. http://www.vdare.com/awall/080804_memo.htm Sorry about the italics in the previous post. Speaking of Wall, here's a link to an article in VDARE.com about immigrants who are returning to Mexico, either by force, circumstance or choice, are affecting Mexican society.

http://www.vdare.com/awall/080804_memo.htm

]]> By: Sean Scallon http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173616 Sean Scallon Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:30:06 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173616 <i>"What are the most favorable conditions under which a sizable minority can be integrated into the mainstream?" The problem with this question is what we define as "mainstream" and if one reads Chronicles what is defined as "mainstream" is not something that's very pleasant to contimplate. Indeed as was pointed out in the second part of this series, Mexicans and other Hispanics are not assimmilating into the same U.S. "mainstream" Italians, Swedes, Irish and Germans asssimiliated into. Over 100 years ago, such European immigrant groups could keep their culturally locally (neighborhood and village) so long as they toed the established U.S line pounded itno them by Protestant, Yankee public school teachers. This allowed for the best of both worlds, immigrants became good Americans fighting on the battlefield of Europe in two major wars while you could hear mass in Polish if wanted to down the street on M ilwaukee Ave. in Chicago. This is still true to a certain extent but the difference nowadays is the U.S. economy and mass media is one of the driving engines for globalization, so that leads to confusion as to what exactly is American culture or the American mainstream. Over 100 years ago this was an easy question to answer. Now it is not and immigrant groups find themselves in such a land of confusion. (get ready for the large influx of Iraqis too in the coming years). So there are going to be competiting pressures to "keep it real", meaning staying loyal to the ethnic groups led by leftist agitators (La Raza, CAIR) and assimilate. Those pressures have always existed but now they are exacerbated by the globalized world that keeps one better informed as to what's happening in the old country along with the close proximity of Latin America to the U.S. Here's a good example of what I'm talking about: Why would a Mexican want to live in some barren, icy cold Minnesota prairie town (which many do in the southwest part of the state)? Is it just because he can get a job at the local meat-packing plant Why leave sunny California where Hispanics have real political power and have a powerful sense of community to be isolated in place far away and be vulnerable? Partially its because of work but also because they feel the barrios of Southern California and Arizona have become too crowded and too filled with gangs and crime. They want the good life in the U.S., not relive what they left behind in Mexico, otherwise they wouldn't have left. They want to be assimilated, but they're not sure what assimilation is or what they're assimilating into. So of course they bring they're old cutlture with them when they head to places like Pottsville, Iowa, or Worthington, Minn. or Arcadia, Wisconsin. And it makes them stand out like sore thumbs among the local towns people who not only have to accept them but the Hispanic culture that follows them which threatens to wash away the local culture hardly anyone follows anymore because too much a part of the American "mainstream". This is why immigration became such a big issue, because it had left the coats and big cities where the new immigrants had already been accepted and assimilated or passes for assimilation these days and headed straight for interior of the country which had not had time to deal with the issue. We must be very careful and very vigilant not to think that just because some immigrant groups have traits that we may admire that we don't see anymore in the European poulation which is now in the maw of what passes for America these days, that some how the immigrants will wind of transforming us back into our old selves. Mexico is Mexico and the U.S. is the U.S for a reason. If anything the opposite will happen. Allen Wall is writer for VDARE.com and is an American who lives Mexico who has wrtten extensively on neocon myths perptraded by the Bennetts, Barones and Chavezs of the world about how wonderful the new, even more polygot U.S. with pious, industrious immigrant groups shaming the amalgamated "Americans" into becoming what they used to be. You'll be sorely disappointed and disillusioned to learn that thousands of Catholic and Pentacostal immigrants do not necessarily prevent Mexicans from getting abortions, having multiple sex partners or taking drugs or listening to bad music any more than the rest of the population. And more exposure to that pentrating, globalized post-modern culture will only make that situation worse, especially for those now growing up in the U.S. rather than old Mexico.</i> "What are the most favorable conditions under which a sizable minority can be integrated into the mainstream?"

The problem with this question is what we define as "mainstream" and if one reads Chronicles what is defined as "mainstream" is not something that's very pleasant to contimplate. Indeed as was pointed out in the second part of this series, Mexicans and other Hispanics are not assimmilating into the same U.S. "mainstream" Italians, Swedes, Irish and Germans asssimiliated into. Over 100 years ago, such European immigrant groups could keep their culturally locally (neighborhood and village) so long as they toed the established U.S line pounded itno them by Protestant, Yankee public school teachers. This allowed for the best of both worlds, immigrants became good Americans fighting on the battlefield of Europe in two major wars while you could hear mass in Polish if wanted to down the street on M ilwaukee Ave. in Chicago.

This is still true to a certain extent but the difference nowadays is the U.S. economy and mass media is one of the driving engines for globalization, so that leads to confusion as to what exactly is American culture or the American mainstream. Over 100 years ago this was an easy question to answer. Now it is not and immigrant groups find themselves in such a land of confusion. (get ready for the large influx of Iraqis too in the coming years). So there are going to be competiting pressures to "keep it real", meaning staying loyal to the ethnic groups led by leftist agitators (La Raza, CAIR) and assimilate. Those pressures have always existed but now they are exacerbated by the globalized world that keeps one better informed as to what's happening in the old country along with the close proximity of Latin America to the U.S.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about: Why would a Mexican want to live in some barren, icy cold Minnesota prairie town (which many do in the southwest part of the state)? Is it just because he can get a job at the local meat-packing plant Why leave sunny California where Hispanics have real political power and have a powerful sense of community to be isolated in place far away and be vulnerable? Partially its because of work but also because they feel the barrios of Southern California and Arizona have become too crowded and too filled with gangs and crime. They want the good life in the U.S., not relive what they left behind in Mexico, otherwise they wouldn't have left. They want to be assimilated, but they're not sure what assimilation is or what they're assimilating into. So of course they bring they're old cutlture with them when they head to places like Pottsville, Iowa, or Worthington, Minn. or Arcadia, Wisconsin. And it makes them stand out like sore thumbs among the local towns people who not only have to accept them but the Hispanic culture that follows them which threatens to wash away the local culture hardly anyone follows anymore because too much a part of the American "mainstream". This is why immigration became such a big issue, because it had left the coats and big cities where the new immigrants had already been accepted and assimilated or passes for assimilation these days and headed straight for interior of the country which had not had time to deal with the issue.

We must be very careful and very vigilant not to think that just because some immigrant groups have traits that we may admire that we don't see anymore in the European poulation which is now in the maw of what passes for America these days, that some how the immigrants will wind of transforming us back into our old selves. Mexico is Mexico and the U.S. is the U.S for a reason. If anything the opposite will happen. Allen Wall is writer for VDARE.com and is an American who lives Mexico who has wrtten extensively on neocon myths perptraded by the Bennetts, Barones and Chavezs of the world about how wonderful the new, even more polygot U.S. with pious, industrious immigrant groups shaming the amalgamated "Americans" into becoming what they used to be. You'll be sorely disappointed and disillusioned to learn that thousands of Catholic and Pentacostal immigrants do not necessarily prevent Mexicans from getting abortions, having multiple sex partners or taking drugs or listening to bad music any more than the rest of the population. And more exposure to that pentrating, globalized post-modern culture will only make that situation worse, especially for those now growing up in the U.S. rather than old Mexico.

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173597 TJF Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:33:58 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173597 I don't understand the point of John Wilson's remarks. I don't recall mentioning Transcendentalism and as a lover of Italians and Sicilians, I can hardly be accused of defaming Italy. For all their virtues, though, few Sicilians have become Americans in the sense in which that word was understood a hundred years ago. As someone seriously considering emigration to Sicily, I do not say they should have, only that they did not. I don't understand the point of John Wilson's remarks. I don't recall mentioning Transcendentalism and as a lover of Italians and Sicilians, I can hardly be accused of defaming Italy. For all their virtues, though, few Sicilians have become Americans in the sense in which that word was understood a hundred years ago. As someone seriously considering emigration to Sicily, I do not say they should have, only that they did not.

]]> By: ASM http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173492 ASM Tue, 05 Aug 2008 05:36:29 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173492 Dr. TJF, This may be off-topic but I wanted to address these questions from Prof. Knuth to you. You may not have much of an idea about Prof. Knuth. He is arguably one of the sharpest minds alive today and his " The Art of Computer Programming" series is a testament to the sheer vastness & beauty of human intelligence. Nothing I have read (or even heard about in passing) comes close to it in probing the potential of the human brain, specifically its almost infinite capacity for analytical reasoning using the Queen of Sciences, Mathematics. If you are interested I could tell you more about it in a private e-mail. Without further ado, here are the questions: 1. Why does my country have the right to be occupying Iraq? 2. Why should my country not support an international court of justice? 3. Is my country not strong enough to achieve its aims fairly? 4. When the leaders of a country cause it to do terrible things, what is the best way to restore the honor of that country? 5. Is it possible for potential new leaders to raise questions about their country's possible guilt, without committing political suicide? 6. Do I deserve retribution from aggrieved people whose lives have been ruined by actions that my leaders have taken without my consent? 7. How can I best help set in motion a process by which reparations are made to people who have been harmed by unjust deeds of my country? 8. If day after day goes by with nobody discussing uncomfortable questions like these, won't the good people of my country be guilty of making things worse? http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/iaq.html I consider you to be among one of the finest moral philosophers in the country today and would particularly be very interested in your responses to questions 4 through 8. Again, I am sorry to post something off-topic. Dr. TJF,

This may be off-topic but I wanted to address these questions from Prof. Knuth to you. You may not have much of an idea about Prof. Knuth. He is arguably one of the sharpest minds alive today and his " The Art of Computer Programming" series is a testament to the sheer vastness & beauty of human intelligence. Nothing I have read (or even heard about in passing) comes close to it in probing the potential of the human brain, specifically its almost infinite capacity for analytical reasoning using the Queen of Sciences, Mathematics. If you are interested I could tell you more about it in a private e-mail.

Without further ado, here are the questions:

1. Why does my country have the right to be occupying Iraq?
2. Why should my country not support an international court of justice?
3. Is my country not strong enough to achieve its aims fairly?
4. When the leaders of a country cause it to do terrible things, what is the best way to restore the honor of that country?
5. Is it possible for potential new leaders to raise questions about their country's possible guilt, without committing political suicide?
6. Do I deserve retribution from aggrieved people whose lives have been ruined by actions that my leaders have taken without my consent?
7. How can I best help set in motion a process by which reparations are made to people who have been harmed by unjust deeds of my country?
8. If day after day goes by with nobody discussing uncomfortable questions like these, won't the good people of my country be guilty of making things worse?

http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/iaq.html

I consider you to be among one of the finest moral philosophers in the country today and would particularly be very interested in your responses to questions 4 through 8.

Again, I am sorry to post something off-topic.

]]> By: Robert Pinkerton http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173486 Robert Pinkerton Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:04:19 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173486 Immigration to the United States is a privilege, not a right. Privileges have corresponding and countervailing responsibilities. Among those pertinent to immigration to the U.S., are assimilation and obedience to law. Immigration to the United States is a privilege, not a right. Privileges have corresponding and countervailing responsibilities. Among those pertinent to immigration to the U.S., are assimilation and obedience to law.

]]> By: John Willson http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173485 John Willson Tue, 05 Aug 2008 00:34:38 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173485 Here are two anecdotes from a Yankee whose impeccable credentials never included Transcendentalist nonsense. During World War II I lived in a small western New York village which was overwhelmed with Sicilian immigrants who came to work on the New York Central Railroad. The older men took care of me and my friends, all of whose fathers were off to war. My grandfather, who was the local Episcopal priest, taught them English and gave them citizenship lessons. We all loved each other. Later, I was raised in another little western New York village the dominant ethnic group of which was Dutch Catholic farmers. I was the first to break into that group and marry one of their daughters. All of us worked hard and the most important point of separation (until about 1960 or so) was religion rather than national origin. I do remember sitting in the barbershop of Andy Bartucca when I was ten years old, and hearing a tough old Dutch farmer call him a "dago bastard" when Andy was shaving his neck with a straight razor. I went home and asked my Dad what a "dago bastard" was and he said, "a good man who didn't slit the dumb sob's throat." Tom Fleming writes more sensibly about more things than just about anybody, but we can get caught up too much in cultural faultlines. Here are two anecdotes from a Yankee whose impeccable credentials never included Transcendentalist nonsense. During World War II I lived in a small western New York village which was overwhelmed with Sicilian immigrants who came to work on the New York Central Railroad. The older men took care of me and my friends, all of whose fathers were off to war. My grandfather, who was the local Episcopal priest, taught them English and gave them citizenship lessons. We all loved each other. Later, I was raised in another little western New York village the dominant ethnic group of which was Dutch Catholic farmers. I was the first to break into that group and marry one of their daughters. All of us worked hard and the most important point of separation (until about 1960 or so) was religion rather than national origin. I do remember sitting in the barbershop of Andy Bartucca when I was ten years old, and hearing a tough old Dutch farmer call him a "dago bastard" when Andy was shaving his neck with a straight razor. I went home and asked my Dad what a "dago bastard" was and he said, "a good man who didn't slit the dumb sob's throat." Tom Fleming writes more sensibly about more things than just about anybody, but we can get caught up too much in cultural faultlines.

]]> By: Kirt Higdon http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/08/04/poor-mexico-poor-america-i/comment-page-1/#comment-173350 Kirt Higdon Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:05:31 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=682#comment-173350 Thank you, Dr. Fleming, for this exposition. I would note that birth rates of ethnic groups are not static and that birth rates have been falling world wide for some time. Some groups are ahead of others on the downslope. Mexican immigrants to the US seem to have a somewhat higher birth rate than Mexicans overall, but after a couple of generations, their birthrate is equal to that of US whites or blacks. Something I have noticed here in Corpus Christi is that white women marry younger and have more kids than in other parts of the country I have seen. I admit this is anecdotal and my observations could be wrong, but I have wondered if it may involve the example of Mexican and Tejana women who also marry younger and have more kids. Thank you, Dr. Fleming, for this exposition. I would note that birth rates of ethnic groups are not static and that birth rates have been falling world wide for some time. Some groups are ahead of others on the downslope. Mexican immigrants to the US seem to have a somewhat higher birth rate than Mexicans overall, but after a couple of generations, their birthrate is equal to that of US whites or blacks. Something I have noticed here in Corpus Christi is that white women marry younger and have more kids than in other parts of the country I have seen. I admit this is anecdotal and my observations could be wrong, but I have wondered if it may involve the example of Mexican and Tejana women who also marry younger and have more kids.

]]>