Karadzic’s Arrest: Bosnian Myths Rehashed
by Srdja Trifkovic
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The spirit of the media frenzy surrounding the arrest of the former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic on July 21 is based entirely on the doctrine of non-equivalence inaugurated in 1992: Serbs willed the war, Muslims wanted peace; Serb crimes are bad and justly exaggerated, Muslim crimes are understandable.
This doctrine was spectacularly reiterated a month before Karadzic’s capture, when the Muslim wartime commander of Srebrenica, Nasir Oric, was found not guilty by The Hague Tribunal of any responsibility for the killing of thousands of Serb civilians by the forces under his command in the three years before the fall of the enclave in July 1995. It is also apparent today, in the endless media repetition of Karadzic’s alleged bellicose intransigence before and during the Bosnian war.
UNRESOLVED ISSUE OF WAR GUILT
The imbalance is more than merely unfair. The talking heads gloating over Karadzic’s capture no longer need to suppress the thought that different U.S. policies could have prevented the horror of “Bosnia,” because no such thought—however pertinent in this case—ever occurs to them. Yet the fact remains that in the spring of 1992 the late Warren Zimmermann, the last U.S. ambassador to Yugoslavia before its breakup and civil war, materially contributed—probably more than any other single man—to the outbreak of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The facts of the case have been established beyond reasonable doubt and are no longer dosputed by experts.
Nine months earlier, in June 1991, Slovenia and Croatia declared independence, a move that triggered off a short war in Slovenia and a sustained conflict in Croatia where the Serbs refused to accept Tudjman’s fait accompli. These events had profound consequences on Bosnia and Herzegovina, that “Yugoslavia in miniature.” The Serbs (34%) adamantly opposed the idea of Bosnian independence. The Croats (17%) predictably rejected any suggestion that Bosnia and Herzegovina remains within a Serb-dominated rump Yugoslavia.
Alija Izetbegovic, the leader of the Muslim community (43%), had decided as early as September 1990 that Bosnia should also declare independence if Slovenia and Croatia secede. On 27 February 1991 he went a step further: “I would sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina, but for that peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina I would not sacrifice sovereignty.” The process culminated with the referendum on independence (29 February 1992). The Serbs duly boycotted it. In the end just over 62 percent of voters opted for independence, overwhelmingly Muslims and Croats; but even this figure was short of the two-thirds majority required by the constitution. This did not stop the rump government of Izetbegovic from declaring independence on 3 March.
Simultaneously one last attempt was under way to save peace. The Portuguese foreign minister Jose Cutileiro organized a conference in Lisbon attended by the three communities’ leaders, Izetbegovic, Radovan Karadzic, and the Croat leader Mate Boban. The EU mediators persuaded the three sides that Bosnia-Herzegovina should be independent but internally organized on the basis of ethnic regions or “cantons.”
The breakthrough was due to the Bosnian Serbs’ acceptance of an independent Bosnia, provided that the Muslims give up their ambition of a centralized, unitary one. Izetbegovic appeared to accept that this was the best deal he could make—but soon he was to change his mind. When he returned from Lisbon, Zimmermann flew post haste from Belgrade to Sarajevo to tell him that the U.S. did not stand behind the Cutileiro plan. He said it was a means to “a Serbian power grab” that could be prevented by internationalizing the problem. When Izetbegovic said that he did not like the Lisbon agreement, Zimmerrmann encouraged him to renege. State Department subsequently admitted that the US policy “was to encourage Izetbegovic to break with the partition plan.” The New York Times (August 29, 1993) brought a revealing quote from the key player himself:
The embassy [in Belgrade] was for recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina from sometime in February on,” Mr. Zimmermann said of his policy recommendation from Belgrade. “Meaning me.” … Immediately after Mr. Izetbegovic returned from Lisbon, Mr. Zimmermann called on him in Sarajevo… “He said he didn’t like it; I told him, if he didn’t like it, why sign it?”
After that moment Izetbegovic had no motive to take the ongoing EC-brokered talks seriously., just as the Albanians had no motive to negotiate with Belgrade in 2007, after President Bush declared in Tirana that it would become independent. After his encounter with Zimmermann Izetbegovic felt authorized to renege on tripartite accord, and he knew that the U.S. administration would come to his assistance to enforce the independence of a unitary Bosnian state.
The motives of Zimmermann and his political bosses in Washington were not rooted in the concern for the Muslims of Bosnia as such, or indeed any higher moral principle. Their policy had no basis in the law of nations, or in the notions of truth or justice. It was the end-result of the interaction of pressure groups within the American power structure: Saudis and other Muslims, neocons, Turks, One-World Nation Builders, Russophobes… all had their field day. Thus the war in the Balkans evolved from a Yugoslav disaster and a European inconvenience into a major test of “U.S. leadership.” This was made possible by a bogus consensus which passed for Europe’s Balkan policy. This consensus, amplified in the media, limited the scope for meningful debate.
Zimmermann’s ploy heralded a virulently anti-Serb, agenda-driven form of Realpolitik that was to dominate America’s Bosnian policy. Just as Germany sought to paint its Maastricht Diktat on Croatia’s recognition in December 1991 as an expression of the “European consensus,” after Zimmermann’s intervention in Sarajevo Washington’s fait accomplis were straightfacedly labeled as “the will of the international community.” Europe was resentful but helpless when the United States resorted to covert action to smuggle arms into Croatia and Bosnia in violation of U.N. resolutions. Zimmermann’s torpedoing of the EU Lisbon formula in 1992 started a trend that frustrated the Europeans, but they were helpless.
Cutileiro was embittered by the US action and accused Izetbegovic of reneging on the agreement. Had the Muslims not done so, he recalled in 1995, “the Bosnian question might have been settled earlier, with less loss of life and land.” Cutileiro also noted that the decision to renege on the signed agreement was not only Izetbegovic’s, as he was encouraged to scupper that deal and to fight for a unitary Bosnian state by foreign mediators.”
THE SETTING
Over the past two centuries Balkan lands were bargaining chips for alliance construction. The Bosnian war of 1992-95 confirmed this trend. It was the most destructive segment of the War of Yugoslav Dissolution that began when the Yugoslav republics of Slovenia and Croatia seceded in the summer of 1991. With no ethnic majority and no “Bosnian” nation, of all six republics of the old Yugoslav federation the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had most to fear from violent secession. Yet once reunited Germany was committed to the recognition of Croatia and Slovenia, the Muslim leadership in Sarajevo knew both that the old Yugoslavia was dead and that historic opportunities beckoned.
At the outset of the present crisis most inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not want to become “Bosnians” in any political sense; but they were unaware of the extent to which their future depended on events beyond their republic’s boundaries. The ruling League of Communists of Yugoslavia literally disintegrated in the first months of 1990, setting the stage for multi-party elections in all six federal republics. The resulting power vacuum was felt in Bosnia-Herzegovina more keenly than in other republics because the Party rule there was more rigidly doctrinaire than in other federal units. When the first multi-party election since 1938 finally took place in November 1990, the voters overwhelmingly acted in accordance with their ethnic loyalties that proved more enduring than any ideological differences between them.
The weakness or even non-existence of non-nationalist opposition to the old communist establishment was at least partly due to the deliberate Western policy of appeasement of Tito’s dictatorship following his break with Moscow in 1948. Contrary to the situation in Poland (“Solidarity”) or Czechoslovakia (“Charter 77”), in Tito’s lifetime and even in the decade following his death in 1980 there had been no serious attempt by the United States to develop or cultivate alternative political teams in Yugoslavia among the narrow stratum of the intellectual establishment which could have been considered friendly to “Western democracy.” In accordance with the Kennan Doctrine, Tito’s dictatorship enjoyed America’s cheque blanche to do as it pleased domestically, for as long as it shunned full rapprochement with Moscow.
When the system unravelled the Muslims were the first to organize, founding their Stranka Demokratske Akcije, SDA (Party of Democratic Action) in March 1990. The Croats followed two months later with the creation of Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica Bosne i Hercegovine—HDZ BiH (Croatian Democratic Union); in reality theirs was but a local subsidiary of the retired YPA General Franjo Tudjman’s HDZ in Zagreb. Finally, in July the Serbs established the Srpska Demokratska Stranka Bosne i Hercegovine, SDS (Serb Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina). The pattern of the Muslims and Croats acting proactively, and the Serbs reacting, was thus established very early on.
When the Bosnian election results were tallied, they effectively read like a census plain and simple. The overwhelming share of the vote—80 percent—went to the three parties that had grounded their appeal in the ethnic-national identity and issues. In the National Assembly of 240 seats (Chamber of Citizens and Chamber of Municipalities), the SDA won 86 seats, the SDS took 72 seats, and the HDZ 44. The three winning parties soon reached a power-sharing agreement. Although the maverick businessman-politician Fikret Abdic from the region of Velika Kladusa polled more votes, due to the constitutional vagaries of the late-Yugoslav Bosnia Alija Izetbegović was elected President of a seven-member multi-ethnic rotating presidency. The prime ministry of the Republic went to the HDZ, and the presidency of the Assembly to the SDS.
The tripartite coalition agreement was applicable not only to the distribution of posts at the level of the Republic, but also at the regional and municipal level. The ruling SDA-SDS-HDZ coalition, contrary to some dark predictions by the defeated communists, started functioning without major difficulties in the early months of the new regime. The notion of such cooperation was counter-intuitive to the outside observers of the Bosnian scene, but it made perfect sense in the context of the common desire by all three groups to purge the body-politic of the decades-long layers of communist lies and distortions.
In Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1990 three tiers of government authority were in existence, those of the Republic itself, of the regions, and of municipalities. Depending on the level of participation among the coalition partners, the distribution of political power was accordingly carried out at all levels. The apparent ability of the three “nationalist” parties to cooperate in the immediate aftermath of the election was based on one thing they all had in common: the desire to break free from the Titoist straightjacket. During Tito’s lifetime the three constituent nations of Bosnia-Herzegovina found themselves under steady pressure to “Bosnify” their identities. (Bosnian Serb writing, to take a little known but drastic example, was not to be classed as Serbian literature but as Bosnian literature.)
The SDA, the HDZ, and the SDS, all sought to recreate long-established identities, to represent real, traditional national diversity as against a new, synthetic (“modern”) composite identity. This was a blast of fresh air; it was not the precursor of war as one can see from the simple fact of amicable co-operation. It was, in any case, a natural response to the decay of communist authority. But the SDS were in no sense “anti-Yugoslav” in the political sense: what they were against was the communist cultivation of false nationality (“Yugoslav,” “Bosnian”), as against the spontaneous, natural identities of the historic nationalities of Yugoslavia.
Had Yugoslavia not been breaking up in 1991-92, this emphasis on traditional identities would have passed as a perfectly natural democratic readjustment to reality. The “Left Bloc” was finished, defeated even in the municipality of Prijedor where it confidently expected to be victorious thanks to the area’s “Partisan” tradition and strong “Yugoslav” spirit. The old CPY apparat was simply irrelevant: the pampered friends and clients of the old bureaucracy, who could not explain why their version of Yugoslavia had needed a police state to keep together. The truth is that there was no internal, Bosnian threat to peace at the beginning of 1991: when it came the threat was from outside. The SDS and the SDA were not simply in coalition: they were natural allies while Bosnia remained at peace, although they would become just as natural enemies if Yugoslavia fell apart.
KARADZIC’S EARLY POSITION
Karadzic headed the party representing the Serbs of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they wanted, overwhelmingly, to preserve the status quo. Since they had no desire for the destruction of Yugoslavia, they were forced into reactive posture vis-à-vis those who willed the Federation’s disintegration. It is important to dispose of the idea that the Serbs of Bosnia in 1991 were simply fanaticized by Belgrade propaganda: they were still gasping for air after the Titoist era and composing a revisionist history of ethnic civil war and Serbian suffering, a history which may have contained new exaggerations, but which corrected the evasions and lies in the old story.
At the outset of the last Yugoslav crisis, the Serbs’ basic argument—even if seldom stated with simplicity and coherence—was clear when freed from rhetoric: they had lived in one state since 1918, when Yugoslavia came into being. They reluctantly accepted Tito’s arbitrarily determined internal boundaries between the six federal republics—which left one third of them outside Serbia-proper—on the grounds that the Yugoslav framework afforded them a measure of security from the repetition of the nightmare of 1941-1945; but they could not swallow an illegal ruse that aimed to turn them into minorities, overnight and by unconstitutional means, in their own land.
Even without the vividly remembered trauma of the Second World War, they reacted in 1991-1992 just as the Anglophone citizens of Texas or Arizona might do if they are outvoted, one day, in a referendum demanding those states’ incorporation into Mexico. They demanded the right that the territories, which the Serbs have inhabited as compact majorities long before the voyage of the Mayflower, not be subjected to the rule of their rivals. In the same vein the Protestant Ulstermen demanded – and were given – the right to stay apart from united Ireland when the nationalists in Dublin opted for secession in 1921. In the same vein the state of West Virginia was created in 1863, incorporating those counties of the Commonwealth of Virginia that refused to be forced into secession. The Loyalists of Ulster and the Unionists of West Virginia were just as guilty of a “Joint Criminal Enterprise” to break up Ireland, or the Old Dominion, as were the Serbs of Bosnia-Herzegovina who did not want to be dragged into secession against their will.
Yugoslavia was admittedly a deeply flawed polity, and there could have been no rational objection to the striving of Croats, and even Bosnian Muslims, to create their own nation-states. But equally there could have been no justification for forcing over two million Serbs west of the Drina to be incorporated into those states against their will, and without any guarantees of their rights. Yugoslavia came together in 1918 as a union of South Slav peoples, and not of states, or territorial units. Its divorce should have been effected on the same basis; the boundaries of the republics should have been altered accordingly.
This is, and has been, the real foundation of the Yugoslav conflict ever since the first shots were fired in the summer of 1991. Even someone as unsympathetic to the Serb point of view as Lord David Owen conceded that Josip Broz Tito’s internal administrative boundaries between Yugoslavia’s republics were grossly arbitrary, and that their redrawing should have been countenanced at the time of Yugoslavia’s disintegration:
Incomprehensibly, the proposal to redraw the republics’ boundaries had been rejected by all eleven EC countries… [T]o rule out any discussion or opportunity for compromise in order to head off war was an extraordinary decision. My view has always been that to have stuck unyieldingly to the internal boundaries of the six republics within the former Yugoslavia… as being the boundaries for independent states, was a folly far greater than that of premature recognition itself.
THE MUSLIM STRATEGY
Of the three ethnic-religious parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Muslim party—the SDA—was perhaps the most radical, in that it alone advocated a fundamental restructuring of the Bosnian society in accordance with divine revelation. It attempted to do so not on Bosnia’s own terms, not within the Republic’s own local paradigm, but within the terms of the global-historical process—as its leaders saw it—of the global Islamic renaissance. Many commentators in the West have been in a state of denial for years about the true nature of Alija Izetbegovic’s long-term program. To put it simply, they preferred to believe their own assurances that Izetbegovic’s blueprint is not “Islamist” but “multicultural.”
Not unlike Islamist parties elsewhere—notably the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) in Turkey—the SDA had a public, “secular” front, and an inner core of Islamic cadres that remained semi-conspiratorial in the early days. This is vividly described by one of the party’s founders who had previously made a successful business career in the West, Adil Zulfikarpašić. He was appalled by the “fascist” methods of the SDA and by its “conservative, religious, populist” orientation, Adil Zulfikarpašić founded his own party, the MBO (Muslim Bosniak Organization). It fared badly in the elections of 1990 but it nevertheless left an important mark by charting the potential for a genuinely secular, “post-Islamic” political force of the Bosniaks.
In the early stages of the Bosnian crisis numerous Western reporters and commentators have claimed that the SDS sought to scare Bosnian Serbs with exaggerated and untrue claims of the militantly Islamic character of the SDA ideology and policy. It is a matter of record, however, that Izetbegovic was an advocate of Sharia law and a theorist of the Islamic Republic long before the first shots were fired. Already as a young man during World War II, Izetbegovic was a member of the Young Muslims organization (Mladi Muslimani). His was a radical Islamic political organization inspired by the teaching of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Al Husseini, who toured the German-occupied Europe preaching that the Third Reich and the Muslim world had a natural community of interests that demanded personal commitment of every able-bodied Muslim. Izetbegovic’s ideas subsequently matured into a comprehensive, programmatic statement in the Islamic Declaration (1970), the document that led to his imprisonment by the communist authorities in 1983.
The Declaration became Izetbegovic’s de facto political platform. Reprinted in Sarajevo at a key moment in 1990, it startled the public. In the language familiar to the students of militant jihad everywhere, it called for Islamic moral and religious regeneration, and for the strengthening of different types of Islamic unity—up to, and including, armed struggle for the creation of an Islamic polity in countries where Muslims represent the majority of the population.
As Izetbegovic put it,
The Islamic movement must, and can, take over power as soon as it is morally and numerically so strong that it can not only destroy the existing non-Islamic power, but also build up a new Islamic one… There is no peace or coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions.
This was a political program par excellence that non-Islamic groups in Bosnia could not accept; for the Serbs “it confirmed their suspicions that Izetbegović wished to transform Bosnia-Herzegovina into an Islamic state.” The author’s contempt for Western values is evident in his dismissal of the Kemalist tradition: “Turkey as an Islamic country used to rule the world. Turkey as an imitation of Europe represents a third-rate country the like of which there is a hundred in the world.” Elsewhere, he accepts the “achievements of Euro-American civilization” but only in the area of “science and technology… we shall have to accept them if we wish to survive.” In a revealing sentence, Izetbegović discusses the status of non-Muslims in countries with Muslim majorities: “The non-Muslim minorities within an Islamic state, on condition that they are loyal [emphasis added], enjoy religious freedom and all protection.” He advocates “the creation of a united Islamic community from Morocco to Indonesia.”
It should be stressed that Izetbegovic’s views are unremarkable from a traditional Islamic point of view. The final objective is Dar al Islam, where Muslims dominate and infidelssubmit. That is the meaning of Izetbegovic’s apparent generosity to the non-Muslims, “provided that they are loyal”: the non-Muslims can be “protected persons” only if they submitted to Islamic domination.
In his daily political discourse Izetbegovic behaved throughout the 1990s as a de facto nationalist, fostering narrowly-defined Bosniak (i.e., Muslim) nationalist feeling and seeking to equate the emerging “Bosniak” identity with an imaginary supra-ethnic “Bosnia.” He was juxtaposing the construct with the two traditionally Christian communities—Serbs and Croats—whose loyalties were alleged to lie elsewhere, with Belgrade and Zagreb respectively. The two sides of Izetbegovic’s personality—the deeply committed Islamist on one hand and the functional nationalist on another—were not at odds, since within his terms of reference the Bosniak ethnicity was defined by religion, the Muslim religion.
Izetbegovic should not be blamed for being what he is, nor should his followers be condemned for subscribing to his outlook: Luther would say that he and they kann nicht anders. But to have Alija Izetbegovic, with his record and his vision, as the head of a democratic, pluralist state anywhere in the world, is simply unthinkable. But for his peculiar vision to be applied in practice, Bosnia-Herzegovina had to be taken out of Yugoslavia and proclaimed independent and sovereign.
THE ROAD TO WAR
As the fateful year of 1991 approached, the Serbs would have preferred an all-Yugoslav referendum based on the principle of “one man-one vote,” with a simple question—“Yugoslavia, Yes or No?”—and with the result binding for all. While in theory this same principle should have appealed to the Western democracies, in practice the “international community” appeared to be too deeply committed to the quasi-federal Titoist framework to question the assumptions of the secessionist-minded leaders in Croatia and Slovenia—assumptions that paved the way for disintegration. The separatists preferred the model of localized, republic-by-republic elections. Once they were in power, those elections would be followed by ambiguously worded referenda on independence with de facto preordained outcomes. This strategy had little to do with “democracy,” but it proved effective in radicalizing political discourse and escalating Yugoslavia’s crisis.
In early 1990 separatist parties had already triumphed in Slovenia and Croatia. In December of that year Slobodan Milošević’s authoritarian Socialist Party of Serbia gained a convincing victory in Serbia’s elections. The media in all republics had been busy pursuing openly nationalist themes, and the politicians followed suit. In December 1990 the Slovenes voted for an “independent and sovereign state,” and within months Slovenia stopped sending conscripts to serve in the federal armed forces. That same month the Assembly of the Republic of Croatia adopted the new Constitution—the so-called Christmas Constitution—that defined the Republic of Croatia as the “nation-state of the Croatian people.” The constituent status of the Serbian people in Croatia was thus abrogated and the Serbs in Croatia were reduced to the status of a national minority.
Unlike Slovenia, however, Croatia had within its boundaries a large Serb population that resented being stripped of its status as a constituent nation. The Serbs had initially favoured the preservation of Yugoslavia, but in the light of Slovene and Croat moves towards independence they raised the issue of self-determination. This was specifically related to the question of adjusting borders between the Yugoslav federal units in such a way as to allow various Serb communities outside Serbia to remain attached to it.
Separatist republics are free to go, the Serb argument essentially went, but they should not be allowed to take areas with a Serb plurality along with them. Slovenia’s and Croatia’s declarations of independence (June 25, 1991) were accordingly followed by rather different responses. There was a short conflict in Slovenia involving the Yugoslav Army, and a sustained and much bloodier war in Croatia involving local Serbs. Inevitably these events were bound to have profound consequences on Bosnia.
Izetbegovic’s chief concern was to find a pretext for the intended separation from Yugoslavia—any Yugoslavia—and to use the Croat tactical alliance in pursuit of that goal; the day of reckoning with the HDZ could come later. The decision by Izetbegovic to treat Tudjman’s bid for independence as the cue for Bosnia’s repeat act was fateful: the moment that the SDA made it clear that it would not remain in any Yugoslavia without Croatia, war was inevitable in Bosnia. Izetbegović was willing to risk that war. In the 1990 election campaign he said that the Muslims would “defend Bosnia with arms.” In February 1991 he declared in the Assembly: “I would sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina, but for that peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina I would not sacrifice sovereignty.” To the Serbs this was a war cry. By May Izetbegovic went even further, saying that the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina probably could not be avoided because “for a state to be created, for a nation to be forged, it has to endure this, it is some kind of fate, destiny.” This statement echoed his Islamic fatalism.
KARADZIC AND MILOSEVIC
Over the past two centuries Balkan lands were bargaining chips for alliance construction. The Bosnian war of 1992-95 confirmed this trend. It was the most destructive segment of the War of Yugoslav Dissolution. With no ethnic majority and no “Bosnian” nation, of all six republics of the old Yugoslav federation the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina had most to fear from violent secession. Yet once reunited Germany was committed to the recognition of Croatia and Slovenia, the Muslim leadership in Sarajevo knew both that the old Yugoslavia was dead and that historic opportunities beckoned.
President Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia, however, played the Bosnian crisis primarily as a means of consolidating his power in Serbia proper and extending his influence without committing himself to any clearly defined strategic objective, such as a “Greater Serbia.” By contrast, President Franjo Tudjman of Croatia did not shed Marxist crocodile tears at the passing of the old Titoist certainties. Unlike Milosevic he was a true nationalist. In April 1992 he brought Croatian troops into western Herzegovina just as Milosevic withdrew the Yugoslav National Army (JNA) from Bosnia. Furthermore, in a twisted re-enactment of the chetnik-partisan divide, Milosevic had constantly sought to deepen the divide between the civilian leadership in Pale headed by Karadzic, and the military HQ at Han Pijesak led by General Ratko Mladic.
When the Bosnian Serbs took control of the Serb-majority areas and connecting corridors in 1992, they were well equipped and officered. But the numerical advantage lay with the Muslims, who hoped to win in the end with international help. Radavan Karadzic never understood that this was, indeed, Izetbegovic’s grand strategy, and that time was not on the side of the Serbs.
In addition Karadzic personally and the Serbs collectively were severely damaged by the western media handling of their mistreatment of Muslim prisoners and by their expulsion of non-Serb civilians in the summer of 1992. Similar atrocities by Croats and Muslims against Serbs and against each other, while no less common, were less conspicuous and deemed unworthy of attention. The Western elite class chose its sympathies at the start and kept up an agitation in favor of military intervention against the Serbs.
Of several peace plans offered or mediated by the Europeans, Karadzic was under particular pressure—especially from Milosevic in Belgrade—to accept the Vance-Owen Plan (May 1993) that would have divided Bosnia into ten “cantons.” He initialled its acceptance, but subsequently it was rejected by the Republika Srpska national assembly. Only months later Muslims rejected the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan that provided for a confederal model of three sovereign national entities (December 1993). A vague yet “non-negotiable” plan presented by the “Contact Group” in 1994 was refused by the Serbs. It was quietly discarded in early 1995, by which time the Clinton Administration decided to intervene directly on the Muslim side.
KARADZIC’S COSTLY MISCALCULATIONS
The media call for intervention, launched in its early stage, made the Bosnian war the subject of international debate to an extent unknown since Vietnam. Many Europeans were inclined to support a compromise peace, a federalized Bosnia, and a real arms embargo; whereas the United States disliked European peace plans, broke the arms embargo starting in late 1993, and overtly supported the Muslims.
In 1992-1993 Karadzic made a fundamental miscalculation that made the war unwinnable for the Serbs. Ever obsessed with maps, square miles and territorial percentages to the detriment of strategic planning, he sat on his advantages and hoped that in the fulness of time the world would recognize the Serbs’ apparent victory. His often repeated adage, “we don’t want to defeat them [Muslims], we want to separate from them,” was absurd, however: the latter could not be effected without securing the former.
Blinkered by his flawed assumptions, Karadzic failed to grasp the tectonic shift that took place in January 1994, when the U.S. sponsored a Croat-Muslim alliance and the Europeans realized that there would be no settlement unless they surrendered political leadership to Washington. This new stage was inaugurated in February 1994, when a mortar shell fell on the crowded Markale market in Sarajevo. The Serbs were duly blamed, and evidence that the shell could not have been fired from Serbian lines became available too late to affect the subsequent crisis.
From this point the war became a matter of Muslim attempts to exploit the “safe areas”—in Sarajevo, Gorazde, Tuzla, Bihac, and Srebrenica—which had been declared by the UN but never demilitarized. In short the Muslims were allowed to attack out of these areas, but the Serbs were not allowed to pursue them back in. From spring 1994 on the Muslims could no loger lose the war, which, in view of their weak starting position, was tantamount to winning it.
Once treated as a key interlocutor in London, New York, or Geneva, by early 1995 Karadzic was no longer a player in the big game. In Washington Bosnia was seen as an opportunity to transform NATO from a purely defensive alliance into an “out-of-area” enforcement agency, thus paving the way for the Kosovo intervention four years later. The success of the pro-intervention lobby in the media must be seen in the context of strong support for their agitation from parts of the U.S. administration.
Russia was the source of Karadzic’s constant hopes and repeated disappointments. Often puzzled by Moscow’s supine posture, he kept hoping that it would “shake itself up.” Yet Yeltsin’s Russia was weak, eager to appease the West, and reluctant to exert itself in the Balkan area. Russian policy began with an almost ideological commitment to accepting Western good faith, and Russia was slow to grasp that Washington wanted a peace settlement based on the defeat of the Serbs. By 1995 informed Russian opinion was getting alarmed at the direction events were taking, but it was too late, and too difficult, for the Yeltsin presidency to devise a new policy.
In the summer of 1995 London and Paris reluctantly agreed to allow NATO to bomb the Serbs, while the United States reluctantly accepted the sort of settlement the Europeans had wanted in 1992-3. But the bombing of the Bosnian Serb army in August 1995, which appeared to end the war, was less important militarily than the entry of the Croatian Army into Bosnia, now trained and extensively re-equipped by the U.S. Even this Croatian intervention was only possible because the Yugoslav army refused to intervene to save its clients west of the Drina. The war ended because Milosevic of Serbia wanted it to end.
The chief outcome of the war was a transformed NATO, and the renewal of American leadership in Europe to an extent not seen since Kennedy. It established that America wanted to lead, and to be indispensable, in the process of European reorganization after 1989. Bosnia itself was not much affected by international intervention. The war took longer than it would have done and the Serbian position is more uncertain, but the settlement that followed Dayton is not unlike a plausible compromise that seemed within reach in Lisbon in April 1992.
Richard Holbrooke, the chief U.S. negotiator in 1995, boasted a year later: “We are re-engaged in the world, and Bosnia was the test.” This “we” meant the United States, not “the West” or “the international community.” Indeed, no nation-state started and finished the Bosnian story as a political actor with an unchanged diplomatic personality. Each great power became a forum for the global debate for and against intervention, the debate for and against a certain kind NATO, and an associated, media-led international political process. The interventionists prevailed then, and their narrative dominates the public commentary on Karadzic’s arrest now.
VAE VICTIS…
Far from bringing the Bosnian episode to a close, Karadzic’s transfer to The Hague raises an old question that remains unanswered by the interventionists: If the old Yugoslavia was untenable and eventually collapsed under the weight of the supposedly insurmountable differences among its constituent nations, how can Bosnia—the Yugoslav microcosm par excellence—develop and sustain the dynamics of a viable polity? The answer will become known only when the outside powers lose their present interest in upholding the constitutional edifice made in Dayton.
As for the specific charges against Karadzic, we need not hypothesize a pre-war “joint criminal enterprise” to ethnically cleanse and murder, to explain the events of 1992-5. The crimes and violations of human rights that followed were not the direct result of anyone’s nationalist project. These crime, as Susan Woodward notes, “were the results of the wars and their particular characteristics, not the causes.”
The effect of the legal intervention of the “international community” with its act of recognition was that a Yugoslav loyalty was made to look like a conspiratorial disloyalty to “Bosnia”—largely in the eyes of people who supposed ex hypothesi that if there is a “Bosnia” there must be a nation of “Bosnians.” In 1943-4 Tito was able to force the Anglo-Americans to pretend that his struggle was not communist revolution. In 1992-5 Izetbegovic forced the West to pretend that his jihad was the defense of “multi-ethnicity.” Both pretenses were absurd.
How do they do it, these Balkan political impresarios? The Hague Tribunal does not recognize the question as legitimate and therefore does not seek answers. The strange truth is that then, like now, great powers pay a fee for entering the Balkan casino. They consent to someone’s story, not “the Truth.”
Radovan Karadzic will be duly convicted of genocide and crimes against humanity, and he will not come out of jail alive. The verdict is already written, but it reflects a fundamental imbalance. It ignores the essence of the Bosnian war—the Serbs’ striving not to be forced into secession—while remaining mute about the culpability of the other two sides for a series of unconstitutional, illegitimate and illegal political decisions that caused the war.
The judgment against Karadzic at the U.S.-sponsored and largely U.S.-funded tribunal at The Hague will be built on this flawed foundation. It will be neither fair or just, and therefore it will be detrimental to what America should stand for in the world. It will also give further credence to the myth of Muslim blameless victimhood, Serb viciousness, and Western indifference, and therefore weaken our resolve in the global struggle euphemistically known as “war on terrorism.” The former is a crime; the latter, a mistake.
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1 Comment by Kirt Higdon on 22 July 2008:
Thank you, Dr. Trifkovic, for this extensive historical background. In its arrogance, the global imperial ruling class of the US makes and breaks nations according to whatever mood it is in and (as indicated in Dr. Roberts’ article) condemns and often kills as “war criminals” opposing national leaders.
2 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 22 July 2008:
There is absolutely no doubt that Dr. Trifkovic is by far the most reputable source on events in both Serbia and Bosnia. His objectivity remains impeccable, untarnished and clear in spite of his birth in former Yugoslavia. Same can not be said (almost) anywhere else.
Over the last couple of weeks I found articles in Der Spiegel and BBC’s web site about the 8000 “massacred Muslims”.
Nobody bothers to notice that Srebrenica was a predominantly Serbian village. How did so many Muslims find their way to Srebrenica is the first question that nobody ever answered. The number of 8000 has obviously pulled out of a hat, since many subsequent sources claim a more accurate number that ranges from 850 killed to 1120 and even the astronomical 1210, but nowhere near the science fiction of 8000. There is also a nice circus performance every year with numbered green coffins on the “anniversary” of the “massacre”. Therefore Joseph Göbels lives, and similarities between islam and Nazism are even more pronounced.
The myth about Serbian unity remains exactly that – A MYTH. As far as truthfulness and politics there is a very good mathematical equation which could be used:
Truth ≠ Media
I found at least three recent instances which were a nice appetizer for this [Thrift, thrift, Horatio! with funeral baked meats to furnish coldly forth the wedding feast”] were the articles “commemorating” the massacre of Srebrenica. Some lesser doubts were expressed in the following: “We also present estimates of the probability of being a victim: more than 33%for Muslim men who were enumerated in Srebrenica in 1991.” Would that not indicate about a 67% Serbian presence? – sourced: Helge Brunborg1 , Torkild Hovde Lyngstad2 and Henrik Urdal3
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t8457j673l88p203/
Caption under the green draped coffins reads “Burial of 465 identified Bosniak civilians (July 11, 2007) site: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Srebrenica-massacre
I am not entirely sure that the Auschwitz-Birkenau has such an annual Cirque du Soleil performing on command. If I am not mistaken there was even one such performance where the key role was played by Bill Clinton – reinforcing the myth’s passage into the semblance of truth. More and more this looks like the story of Jack who bought the magic beans and later stole the hen which laid golden eggs. If all of this junk came from any one person at any one time – that person would, un-doubtedly have to be committed to an institution for serious psychological disorders, not excluding dementia, schizophrenia, etc. etc. Clinical case studies exist for such individuals – BUT, in case of Serbia/Bosnia this is all carefully dosaged in bits and pieces, droplet after droplet, so that the entire story never comes out as on clear obvious distortion (lie) which is the only appropriate noun we can use (if we are adults) or a fairy tale if the audience is composed of children.
3 Comment by P. Stwart on 22 July 2008:
Excellent commentary. Thank you, Dr. Trifkovic.
4 Comment by Sean Scallon on 22 July 2008:
Dr. Trifkovic has written a tour-de-force about what really happened in the Wars of the Yugoslav Secession (Balkan War V) during the time period of 1990-1995 that you’re not going to find from the globalists still self-congratulating themselves for the mess they made and the lives needlessly lost in the process.
It’s too bad I had not been a Chronicles reader during this time or not been surfing the web to read this true history of the conflict, because too much time has passed since then. Suffice to say there were a lot of misconceptions that existed at the time that influenced my thinking and those of others I’m sure.
For one thing, my initial impression of the conflict when it broke out was that nationalist Croatia and Slovenia were breaking the chains on them of the decepit communist state of Yugoslavia. I viewed the Serbs as the enemy partially due to a Catholic sympathy for Croatia and Slovenia, but also because I saw the Serbs in the context of the old communist system which was trying to keep Croatia and Slovenia entangled its web. The shelling Dubrovnik influenced that thinking. Unbeknownst to me at the time was the fact the Serbs under Milosevic had pretty much discarded communistic ideas as well and were interested in the well-being of Serbs living in Bosnia and Croatia, now minorities in new states. The Serbs’ fear of both Muslim jihad and the old Croatian Ustashe was completly discarded by the media and not made clear. Also not made clear was the role of the old Yugoslav state army and that of the Serbs living in Croatia and Bosnia, who were figthing for themselves rather than as part of the larger Yugoslav Army which was never involved in the war nor really was Milosevic outside of simply aiding their brethern Serbs.
Another misconception was the borders of new states of the old Yugoslavia. I had believed these borders were the same as soverign states and certainly that was the way the media portrayed them on a map. To read in the newspaper day after day of Serbian control over territory that didn’t belong to Serbia proper (within its republics borders) obviously turned myself and a lot of people against the Serbs without realizing what the true situation was. These borders were drawn by Tito himself to weaken the Serbian state and had no correspondence whatsoever to the true ethnic breakdown of Yugoslavia. This fact alone should have given the policymakers back in 1991 pause at what possibly could happen if Croatia and Slovenia seceeded and that to avoid a war the borders HAD to be redrawn to better reflect the ethnic breakdown and that Bosnia must not be allowed to seceed or at least be governed by a Canton system (which is what it has now). Of course, would the Croatian nationalists at that time be willing to let the Croatian Republic’s borders be redrawn? That’s an open question and not one with an easy answer.
Clearly the powers that be didn’t feel that either Milosevic or Karadzic were such criminals that they were willing to cut a deal with both of them to end the war in 1995. The bigger demonization was soon to come with the establishment of the ICTY court in The Hague and the Kosovo War of 1999. The Serbs’ main problem it seems was one of media relations. There were very few Serbs who seemed media savy unlike the Bosnians, whose spokespersons appeared on the news every night giving their side of the story. Indeed western reporters found it easy to deal with the Bosnians and Croats than the Serbs and it colored their initial impression of the war and it fueled an anti-West hatred among the Serbs and led to a downward spiral. Atrocities in the war occured on all sides yet it was the early images of Serb dsiplacement camps (potentially distorted images as it turned out) that turned European and U.S. public opinion against the Serbs needlessly. It certainly must have shocked the Serbs to see their former allies turn on them viciously. It reminds one of the Kaiser’s Germany in World War I who lost the battle for world (meaning largely U.S.) public opinion because their propaganda was worse and more clumsily handled than the Allies. The end result was they were directly fingered for starting the war and forced to admit defeat and pay reparations even though in Nov. 1918 they simply wished to cease hostilies and instead were tricked into surrendering. As it turns out, a powerful PR team is just as important as column of tanks and the Serbs, unfortunately were badly outgunned on this front.
It wasn’t until I started reading Chronicles and the Kosovo War that I started to realize the legitimate arguments the Serbs had about the break-up of Yugoslavia and that much of what was reported during the 1991-95 war was at best confused as to what was really going on and at worst outright lies and propaganda. The war has ceased in my eyes to have any kind of nobility to it even though I do believe Croatia and Slovenia did have a right to leave the old Yugoslavia. The question is whether it was worth it and with much of the region now in the clutches of the evil EU and Bosnia basically looking like what it would have looked like if the Lisbon accord was accepted, then the answer to that question is no.
The reality is Karadzic trial will probably be as farcical as Milosevic’s was. How can one man be responsible for so many deaths in war where many hands were culpable for all the killing that took place? The ICTY has basically been trying to pin the atrocities on a few Serbs and this is why it was failed in its quest for justice, because like rest of the globalists its still operating under the old false narrative. Luckily, thanks to Dr. Trifkovic and Chronciles and the internet, neither I nor anyone has to be enslaved to this narrative any longer.
5 Comment by james on 22 July 2008:
You forgot to mention “the Golden Chain” letter that the terrorists themselves listed as there main fanancial backers that was discovered in 2002 in Bosnia that dates back to 1989.
I think the Balkans war was deliberately started as a cover for training islamic militants to attack Russia and cut off its access to a trillion dollar caspian oil reserve.
A modern day “Operation Blue” which until a few years ago you could find good info about it on the internet.
The Wall Street Journal reported in 2001 that:
“for the past 10 years, the most senior leaders of al Qaeda have visited the Balkans,
including bin Laden himself on three occasions between 1994 and 1996. The Egyptian
surgeon turned terrorist leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri has operated terrorist training
camps, weapons of mass destruction factories and money-laundering and drug-trading
networks throughout Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey and Bosnia.
This has gone on for a decade. Many recruits to the Balkan wars came originally from Chechnya, a jihad in which Al Qaeda has also played a part.”
Hitler tried the same thing during WW2.
6 Comment by david montoute on 22 July 2008:
An excellent background to the Bosnian conflict. Almost nothing is left out. This should be required reading for all of the world’s hysterical anti-Serb bigots. But even if it were, i suspect it would change nothing. The human condition allows consciousness to creep forward only at a glacial pace, as the “Out of Iraq, into Darfur” morons demonstrate so admirably.
As Mr. Trifkovic points out, if Nasir Oric, who openly bragged about and video-recorded his crimes, can be acquitted, then the entire enterprise is unashamedly farsical. Either Karadzic defends himself (and ends like Milosevic) or he quietly accepts his fate like General Krstic. The result is much the same.
7 Comment by Swede on 22 July 2008:
Dr.Trifkovic opened my eyes too. It was the book “Ustasa: Croatian separatism and European politics, 1929-1945″, which I bought from him personally after a Trifkovic speech in Uppsala that made me realize the true story of the Balkans is very different from the story media tries to spoonfeed us with.
8 Comment by Natalie on 22 July 2008:
Thank you for writing this. It confirms many ideas and thoughts I initially had about the war.
9 Comment by Michael Averko on 22 July 2008:
Dr. Trifkovic interviewed:
http://www.russiatoday.ru/guests/detail/1391
10 Comment by r_m on 22 July 2008:
I think when it comes to the Bosnian War just knowing the story of Fikret Abdic and his followers is enough to immediatley destroy the Muslim-Western narrative of the war.
Fikret Abdic was the only Bosnian politican to campaign in 1990 on a non ethnic-nationalist programme and attempt to reach out to all communities. As mentioned in the article he won the most votes out of all presidential candidates.
He became fearful of Izetbegovic`s islamist bent and more importantly frustrated with his reluctance to attempt to forge any sort of compromise peace.
This led him to in the summer of 1993 declare an Autonomous Region of Western Bosnia which would no longer take part in the fighting, as a way to save the region he hailed from from further needless destruction.
For that Western Bosnia found itself under immediate attack of the Sarajevo Bosnian Muslim government (despite it already fighting a two front war against both the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian Croats). Having only 7,000 fighters he allied himself with the Bosnian Serbs and suceeded in fighting off the goverment army.
In the summer of 1994 the Bosnian Muslim government army having been strenghtened by American arms directed its first mayor offensive against Fikret Abdic and overran his Autonomous Region, scoring its first mayor victory in the war against its fellow co-religionists.
Now the questions that “arise”, or better points that don`t fit the story are:
If the crimes Serbs commited were so much worse than the crimes of the Muslims, how come Abdic – a muslim – did not refuse to ally with the Serbs?
And how come the people of Western Bosnia fled before the Muslim government army and found shelter with the Croatian Serbs?
If Izetbegovic sincerley wanted peace how come even Abdic, his ally until midd 1993 became disillusioned with his stance?
And why did the Sarajevo goverment direct its very first mayor offensive against Abdic`s Muslims? Were they just too much of an embarassment best swept under the rugg, before anybody spots the paradoxes they reveal? Serbs and Muslims fighting alongside against the government bent on securing a unitarist state at all cost?
11 Comment by james on 22 July 2008:
@7Swede
I first became awre that Balkans war was the complete opposite of what the media tells us when I visited James Bizit former Canadian ambassador to Yugoslavia website and he explained why Serbs went into Kosovo and Emperors new Clothes that has lots of articles on Islamist training in Bosnia.
But the best website was Andy Wilcoxson’s slobodan-milosevic.org were he cover the trail itself and how much of a farce it was and how it actually showed that the western powers were the criminals as well as the media.
@9Michael Averko
Is there anymore Dr. Trifkovic videos. Did he comment on the Hague tribuneral after Milosevics death.
12 Comment by PcH on 22 July 2008:
Dr. Trifkovic-
So what’s the real reason for the feeding on Serbia?
Is it just a way to give the bloody prophet a foothold in Europe and Serbia just happened to be in the way?
Or is it the balmy climate?
13 Comment by Michael Averko on 22 July 2008:
On the other hand, tonight’s PBS NewsHour had a segment with Laura Silber and Richard Holbrooke.
This as some say that Russia Today is “one-sided.”
14 Comment by saltine on 22 July 2008:
What is going on at Chronicles? Tell me again why any American concerned with our country’s well-being needs to give a damn what happens to Bosnians and Serbs in an obscure and impoverished corner of Europe? So we can get in yet another war that doesn’t have anything to do with our real interests, and sort out the morality of a pack of bloodthirsty, quarreling savages? I am simply astounded that Chronicles finds any of this worth publishing, especially anything at such incredible length. What are there, maybe thirteen people on this continent who are really willing to try to decipher the literally Byzantine arguments of either side here, about why they are right and the other guys deserve to die? I feel about this the same way most American conservatives do about Israel and Palestine: A pox on both your pathetic houses.
15 Comment by david montoute on 22 July 2008:
Clearly, ‘Saltine’ understands precisely nothing about the world he lives in. Sure, why should anyone give a damn if their country spent over ten years violently dismantling another country?
Turning the question around, any non-US citizen could ask “why should anyone give a damn about 3 thousand dead civilians in New York and Washington?”
And yet, the WTC attacks had profound consequences, since the US is not some “obscure and impoverished” country, but the world’s imperial center.
There are those who see a direct relation between the fomenting of radical muslim terrorism in the balkans and subsequent ‘blowback’ by the reputed authors of the 9/11 attacks. I don’t, as i do not accept Al Qaeda authorship of said attacks. But regardless of one’s opinions on the “Byzantine” arguments that brew over world politics, opposition to imperial agression is a simple expression of humanity toward the victims.
You call for “a pox on both their houses”. Well ‘Saltine’, as the US society & economy take a permanent nosedive (a result of imperial overstretch), you can expect these sentiments to come back to you. The rest of the world does have any sympathy for you, either.
16 Comment by Etienne Gervaise on 22 July 2008:
Preach it Brother Srdja!
Unfortunately your large dose of the truth will go nowhere as long as the nominally Christian West prefers to hear lies from Scotsmen like Rupert Murdoch and the Meyer Graham family. The folks I come into contact with repeat such mendacity like conformist parrots. They are predominantly college-educated. Karadzic’s arrest will result in a Stalinist show-trial duly reported by Goldbergs and Schickelsteins. I hope he mounts as impressive a defense as Milosevic did, which made The Hague look really stupid. Yes, I’m gloating!
The elitist calumny is spoon fed to the hoi polloi via Orwell’s telescreen, whose sponsors also deliver gossip, rumours, and wacky stunts to divert our attention away during rigged political campaigns. Perhaps the election of 2008 can be labelled the Brown Ribbon Revolution. Only Chronicles had the knackers to report the Soros infusion of cash into that lunatic McCain’s campaign.
Mr. Trifkovic, some day you’ll be hailed as a prophet, but for now the evil, agitating globalists led by Ernst Stavro Blofeld Soros will have their way. It’s almost enough to make a sane man root for the Arabs.
17 Comment by saltine on 22 July 2008:
You know, Montoute, you and I are on the same side. Unlike Trifkovic, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and a million others, I and American conservatves in general don’t blame our problems on other people. We are due for a hard time, unfortunately, but I won’t come whining to other people to bail us out. And they shouldn’t come whining to me.
I have actually been in the Balkans, and a lot of other places, and like you, I don’t think we should have dismantled a thing. Or done anything but stand by and let the locals do their worst to each other, and remind them to keep their hands off us. But honesty in argument, and its converse, do matter. When Trifkovic frames his arguments as tendentiously as he does – the Serbs just decided to boycott the referendum, huh? – well, he deserves to be called out. The prospect of losing a vote didn’t have anything to do with it, I suppose. Too bad there wasn’t an archduke around, or his defenseless wife, that they could butcher. That might have gotten a lot more help for them.
18 Comment by DP111 on 22 July 2008:
Thank you Dr Trifkovic for a timely and educational article.
This article needs to publicised as widely as possible. It is required reading.
19 Comment by james on 22 July 2008:
@12PcH
You should check were these rebels went after or should I say during and after Bosnia.
@14saltine
Because the 9/11 hijackers, Fort Dix, etc have links to Bosnia. In fact Abdullah Bin Laden who financied the hijackers stay in the US through the Benevolence Fund is still operating NGO’s and terror camps in Bosnia.
@15david montoute
Its pretty obvious that Mossad knew of the attack beforehand and aided its operation so they could impliment there “clean break” strategy, its the only way it could possibly be pulled off.
5 dancing Israelis, Silverstein, 150 people spy ring caught in NYC, etc.
The hijackers were a selected group of people from terror camp who were recruited to pull of the operation.
20 Comment by Jack on 22 July 2008:
Why doesn’t Chronicles just rename itself “Serbian Nationalist Update”?
21 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 22 July 2008:
Mr. Montute,
Kosovo (which was allowed to become a muslim foothold in Europe along with Bosna boasts one of largest American foreing bases in Europe:
“2.5 meter high earthen wall. The camp occupies 955 acres or 3,865,000 square meters of land[1]. To construct the base two hills were lopped off and the valley between them was filled with the resulting material.”
sourced from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel
As a good American who is not “interested” in some Kuala Lumpur distant locations, you might want to start asking how many of your tax dollars have been (mis)spent constructing a Muslim foothold in Europe, while you probably have sufficent memory bank to have stored a magical date of 09/01/2001, as well as a Bosnian Muslim attack in Salt Lake city and Fort Dix, N.J. If this is not enough feel free to ask wny America should stay vigilant or fly into Bhadhad and see it first hand after you man the post in Falluja. Abu Hamza had been training the Muslim “Holly Warriors” in Bosnia and is scheduled to visit Kosovo within a week (before the end of July). Had enough?
22 Comment by ehw on 22 July 2008:
It is easy to re-write history that suits certain people; it is also easy to re-write history while sitting in a nice office and never really living it (or surviving the war). There ARE Bosnians. There IS Bosnia and there is no need for quotation marks while referring to either (and no, there are not all Muslims). While there are too many mistakes and too many wrong ‘facts’ in your article to mention, I will just say that one thing is for certain – that Karadzic and Milosevic did lead the war against innocent people and Bosniaks (or Bosnians) ARE the victims!
- from Bosniak who survived Karadzic’s shelling of Markale in 1994 -
p.s. it was proven that the massacre (shelling) was ordered by Karadzic
23 Comment by Joe on 22 July 2008:
I realize that atrocities were committed on both sides (it was a war), but even by conservative unbiased estimates that put the death toll at under 100,000 nearly 85% of civilian deaths were Bosniaks.
In response to Iliya Pavlovich, Srebrenica was a declared “safe area.” Bosniaks from the surrounding areas traveled to Srebrenica with the belief that it would remain under UN protection. The reason that there is still a “circus” every year is that bodies are still being identified from mass graves. Bosnia has had some of the greatest DNA forensic experts in the world come in to help setup identification techniques. It’s not a fast process however, and those green coffins in the pictures aren’t empty. You can continue believing what you want to believe about Srebrenica, but where are you getting your information from?
You can go to identification warehouses outside Sanski Most if you want to see piles of bodies still being identified. You can go see the warehouses in Srebrenica where people were lined up in groups and shot. The blood is still there. You can go to Srebrenica the day before the memorial services, the day the coffins are unloaded, and watch families find the coffins that contain what’s been found of their loved ones. Or, you can go on believing that it is all a show that’s for some twisted reason being perpetrated every year just to generate pity.
I have no agenda in telling you this. I have no serb, croat, or bosniak family, nor do I come from Bosnia. I’m not muslim, and I have no affiliation with any bosniak organizations. However, I was just in these areas over the past month, and I can tell you: if Srebrenica is an invented circus, the Bosniaks I saw are unbelievable actors.
24 Comment by Michael Averko on 22 July 2008:
Jack:
The overall English language mass media spin (include the BBC, CNN, PBS and NPR) makes Dr. T’s commentary quite worthwhile.
****
Saltine:
As per your comments, it’s the ongoing neo-con/neo-lib influenced Western intervention which the folks at Chronicles oppose.
Your first set of comments misrepresent that aspect. Your second set is indicative of the inaccurate anti-Serb biases out there.
Actually, the Christian majority (if you may) in Bosnia appears to have opposed living in a state where Muslims like Izetbegovic would be quite influential. A number of Muslims like Fikret Abdic expressed likewise. Too bad there wasn’t a better coordinated opposition.
25 Comment by jack bailey on 23 July 2008:
Karadzic’s arrest does not change anything. The standoff continues but the West is ever closer to having to give in to the Serbian demands at some point. It will come sooner than later this way, however counterintuitive that may seem.
26 Comment by Elizabeth on 23 July 2008:
Firstly Saltine
You should be concerned because the events in the Balkans are at least, in some way, associated with the power play over Caspian Gas pipelines.
In fact Serbia will regret its decision to turn to the Eu instead of Russia at its last election.
It will become a ‘client’ state instead of a partner.
9/11.
Like Ron Paul and millions of other people I want to see a proper examination of the events of 9/11. WTC7 poses serious problems for the official story and try as I can I cannot find a satisfactory picture of a huge Boeing sitting in the Pentagon.
Like everyone else who knows the truth I was devastated at the arrest of Dr Karadzic. Strangely though, and no comfort to him and his family, he could just serve his cause a favour.
He needs good lawyers and a good PR company.
You see the world has moved on. We have watched imperialist America murder a million in Iraq and hundreds of thousands of others across the globe. We have had the war on terror (phony as it may well be) . This will make a big difference to the public
perception.
It will be very difficult to justify condemnning a man for defending a christian state against a bunch of islamic terrorists directly linked to Bin Laden himself. Lets have the truth about Izetbegovic finally come to the fore.
Any genocide – what a laugh if I could find the mirth – committed by the Bosnian Serbs pales in comparison to the genocide really committed since by their enemies.
And of course the Hague has to prove – now – that he directly ordered any ‘war crimes’ committed under his leadership. Could the ‘Oric’ case actually backfire if used as a precedent?.
As long as the ‘trial’ can be bought into the public domain I suspect he will look fairly benign and a defender of his people rather than the vicious war criminal the Empire want to picture him. Already on the few comment boards I have seen, for instance the ‘Times’ there is now huge sympathy for him in view of world events since the 1990’s.
But he needs top flight lawyers and he needs media coverage.
Russia where are you when you are needed?….
27 Comment by Michael Averko on 23 July 2008:
Elizabeth
This article suggests that Tadic might be pursuing a bit of a double take:
http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=International&articleid=a1216138869
If true (and there’s reason to find this view credible), it could prove problematical in the future.
For many, giving up Mladic and Kosovo, while giving credence to a flawed legal body is understandably asking too much.
28 Comment by Elizabeth on 23 July 2008:
Michael
Thanks for that very interesting item.
However I do not think that the Russians will ever trust Tadic because of his pro EU commitments and I think the Serbs have completely missed the bus.
They were one state that had a choice between the old and the new power realities of the 21st century.
They blew it – big time.
They chose a path into the EU and membership they can only achieve by surrending their national sovereignty and independence. It is also the old and the dying. Heading for God only knows what – a repeat of certain parts of the breakup of Yugoslavia itself with its growing and assertive mass muslim occupation. The EU diktat is also fighting increasing nationalism within European states. The English, if not the British, would vote to get out in an instant.
In the last few days, and I am sure you have seen the items on the internet, I can post them if you like, it is becoming clear that the west has bitten off more than it can chew with its insults and threats to Russia.
Energy is the new game in town and Russia has it and what it hasn’t got they are going to control.
It has done a deal with Iran, offered to buy all Azerbaijan gas at market value, moved in on Libya – offering a pipeline across the Med and eyeing Algeria. Apparently Turkmenistan is also on board, sealing the Caspian.
Today a deal with Chavez.
Whilst the West fluffs around trying to provoke the bear in Georgia. It would be funny if not so dangerous.
As they say in your article, the west’s pipeline is a now a pipedream. Russia will have a stranglehold on almost the entire gas supply into Europe. Makes those missiles in the Czech republic look rather obsolete. Where will that leave NATO?. America and Britain are both broke.
The other interesting move is the new chap in Ireland who won the ‘no’ vote on the Irish referendum. Now far from being a simple citizen this fellow, who plans 400 candidates next year in the Euro elections against the constitution, but is pro EU, has American links and interesting ones.
You are far more knowledgable than I am but looking at his pedigree I am wondering if this is not a move by the new masters of the USA and its foreign policies – the trilaterals.
If so it has interesting ramifications. Are the Americans getting worried about a too powerful EU and starting to move against those who seek Eu superstate status.
Thieves falling out?.
How can Russia lose?
President Medvedev was apparently insulted by both Britain and America at the G8. The west’s campaign against Prime Minister Putin and against Russia itself has been both unjust and vicious.
Maybe the chickens are really going to come home to roost when Europe finds itself hostage to Russian energy – as it will.
The Serbs may be used by the Russians but Tadic will always be perceived as hostile to Russia. A Dalmatian does not change his spots.
The Serbs really blew it big big time. They have made a camp bed that could have been a four poster.
29 Comment by david montoute on 23 July 2008:
Hi Saltine,
i think you missed my point. Mr. Trifkovic is responding to systematic bias and a constant policy of Big Lie, so of course he’s putting the Serb point of view. Because no-one else has done so.
And this is not about taking sides in a fratricidal civil war – it’s about commitment to truth and not trying to blame others for your own cock-ups. Warren Zimmerman set the stage for the Bosnian war, just when all three sides were about to sign an accord that would have avoided it.
The Serbs refusal to stay in a unitary Bosnia was not some sort of whim – it was based on their experience of atrocious WWll massacres at the hands oof Hitler’s allies, drawn from nationalist Croatians and Islamist Bosnian communities.
Mr. Milosevic had the most consistent attitute to this dilemma: “No-one can be forced to stay in Yugoslavia against their will, but no-one should be forced out against his will either”
German and american interests unleashed the bloodshed with their undisguised desire to see Yugoslavia in pieces. And then they blame and prosecute the “war criminals” for everything that followed.
30 Comment by david montoute on 23 July 2008:
Iliya Pavlovich,
i’ve absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. You seem to be making some general claim about Islamic fanaticism- “Kosovo …was allowed to become a muslim foothold in Europe ”
I agree, absolutely. But i DIDN’T SAY i wasn’t interested in “obscure locations”. That was someone else’s criticism. Please read more carefully.
As for flying into Fallujah, i’ve no desire to do so, and neither should you.
Unless you’re Iraqi, you’ve no business being there.
31 Comment by Elizabeth on 23 July 2008:
‘The Serbs refusal to stay in a unitary Bosnia was not some sort of whim – it was based on their experience of atrocious WWll massacres at the hands oof Hitler’s allies, drawn from nationalist Croatians and Islamist Bosnian communities.’
Saltine
Google
‘Jasenovic concentration camp’
The only camp we hear nothing about . Read about the Serb suffering and sacrifice in WW2, for you and your country!!!! as our allies. Check out Jim Jatras and the hundreds of American Aircrew the Serbs saved from the Germans. Check out the role played by the Serbs in tying up whole German Divisions and the huge death toll of Serbs in so doing . Thank your lucky stars they did it for you and for the West or history could well be quite different
Croats and Albanians were Nazi – and brutal beyond imagination. Even the Gestapo was sickened.
The Serbs sacrifice in WW2 was thrown in their faces by our betrayals. They deserve more than indifference from people like you.
32 Pingback by News | Serbian Unity Congress » Karadzic’s Arrest: Bosnian Myths Rehashed, Chronicles Magazine on 23 July 2008:
[...] [...]
33 Comment by PcH on 23 July 2008:
Saltine & Jack
The US sins in the Balkans are important, because for a new political settlement in the US to begin, right and wrong must be understood. The current US government will never leave peacefully unless the right people know right from wrong. No government can exist better than the wicked one we have unless enough of us know right from wrong.
To know right from wrong, we must understand the sins of our government. The Balkans present a valuable test case because they are a region of advanced, European civilization much like that in America. And they are part of Christendom.
The US government persecutes these fine folks and continues to cause unnecessary mass suffering and death among them; the more people that understand this, the greater the likelihood that the current US government can be replaced with one that is legitimate and constitutional.
Without confession of sins, there is no repentance. Without repentance, America will soon cease to exist, utterly genocided under the sea from Mexico and the wider Third World. The Balkans afford another opportunity for us to repent our sins and avoid God’s lasting and just judgement.
34 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 23 July 2008:
@PcH – The “reason” for feeding on Serbia is not a singular noun, it’s rather many reasonS:
1.Yes: Muhammad’s footprint is surely one of them encroaching from the South (as it kept on encroaching for the last 700 years);
2. Encroaching from the west (The Latin Holly Roman Catholic Church);
3. The weak link between the east and west (Yalta conference, which recognized the geographical pivotal role played by the region;
4. Inherently weak political structure subject to frequent government changes, undefined political goals, frequent shifting of goals, unpredictable vote leanings and outcomes, inducing instability.
Definitely not the balmy climate.
@ Saltine: “What is going on at Chronicles? Tell me again why any American concerned with our country’s well-being needs to give a damn what happens to Bosnians and Serbs in an obscure and impoverished corner of Europe?
Germany was equally distant (from the United States) as Serbia is today (perhaps 500 miles less distant), but 1931/1932 there were only about 800,000 card carrying SA members, which rapidly climbed to 14,000,000 after SA storm leader Axel Schaffeld was assassinated. Should I also mention the Munich in 1933, the Ribentropp’s promise to Chamberlain, agreement with Molotov? One little event that ensued called WW2? The knight of
Long Knives? The Krystalnacht? – Lots of reasons to act and prevent WW2, but….?
All the above were ignored since the United Kingdom was unprepared in a military sense so they chose to delude themselves with Neville’s waiving of the useless paper containing Hitler’s promise of “not-attacking”. History does have a nasty tendency to repeat itself – especially for those who don’t know it or can’t connect the dots.
@ 20 Jack: Why doesn’t Chronicles just rename itself “Serbian Nationalist Update”?
Possible alternatives:
a) Objective, (unbiased) reporting from the cradle of Christianity in spite of Muslim, Roman-Catholic and political pressures
b) Mission Impossible – Clyde Wilson
c) Analysis from Vienna – Dr. Trifkovic, again
d) No more blank checks for war – Mr. Patrick Buchanan
e) Jack’s real name is Abu bin Ahmad el Husseini, and he has an axe to grind?
I’ll chose option “e”.
In spite of Chronicle’s impeccable reputation, articles of the highest order of unbiased reporting, clarity not found in most media, exceptional staff of well educated and well rounded contributors, there are still those that are not quite mature enough for this publication or come here with an agenda (to usurp, provoke, confuse, dilute [issues]
35 Comment by Trifkovic on 23 July 2008:
#23: “even by conservative unbiased estimates that put the death toll at under 100,000 nearly 85% of civilian deaths were Bosniaks” — factually untrue. Source?
36 Comment by Rublev's Dog on 23 July 2008:
One minor sticking point — West Virginia’s separation from the Old Dominion is more analogous to what happened in Kosovo. At least half the counties in that state wished to remain in Virginia, but were forcibly absorbed into the new state as a result U.S. Federal troop intimidation and fraud at county polling booths.
37 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 23 July 2008:
#31, Elizabeth,
Ah yes, those nasty nazies again!
During WWII the Serbs were allies of the Soviets, and when the Serbian territory was occupied by the Germans then, according to international laws and Geneva agreement the occupied people are to down their arms and comply with occupation rules.
But no, the Serbs knew better and had civilians (partisans) take up arms and kill German soldiers.
With that action all bets are off and reprisals are internationally sanctioned and legal.
H.F. Wolff
38 Comment by Joe on 23 July 2008:
#34 – The Bosnian Book of the Dead out of the Research and Documentation Center. It’s an independent, non-partisan, nongovernmental source. It’s methods have been scientifically investigated by external independent organizations and upheld as fact by courts. It has found that 83% of the total civilian deaths from the war were Bosniak. If you’d like to investigate their methods of conducting research you can check their website at http://www.idc.org.ba. The reason I call it a conservative estimate, is that the group only logs data that is verifiable; they are attempting to set a scientific floor on the numbers as opposed to the estimates tossed out by other groups.
Why do you say it’s factually untrue? What sources are your facts from?
39 Comment by Elizabeth on 23 July 2008:
H F Wolf
When A bomb hit my grandparents home totally destroying it and killing a much loved family member it sure as hang was not the Russians or the Serbs.
It originated in Germany and arrived via a German bomber.
I am old enough to remember the last WWar and what it did to England – so don’t try the sarcasm on me. It just doesn’t wash.
In fact I happen to come into the Pat Buchanan view of history and silly comments such as yours really do nothing but annoy those who may feel that some Germans have a legitimate grievance in the later years of the war.
The fact is however, that the Germans should not have been in Serbia any more than Americans in Iraq today.
If Germans were there, the Serbs had every right to dispose of as many of an occupying force as they could.
What we do know is that Germany acted in an underhand, deceitful and conniving way to undermine the State of Yugoslavia and exact revenge on the Serbian people for their resistance in the second world war.
Germany bears huge responsibility for the decade of bloodshed in the Balkans.
It has Serb blood dripping from its hands yet again.
40 Comment by Nathan on 23 July 2008:
#31 Wolff,
What a horrible misrepresentation of history. Try again.
The Luftwaffe bombed Belgrade on April 6 (palm Sunday), 1941 and subsequently invaded the country without a declaration of war, as a result of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia’s defection from the Axis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Belgrade_in_World_War_II
How does this fit into your Geneva Convention theory?
And Tito’s Partisans were allied with the Soviets, the Serbian Chetniks were not. Again, no secret.
41 Comment by Tobias on 23 July 2008:
“2. Encroaching from the west (The Latin Holly Roman Catholic Church)”
“a) Objective, (unbiased) reporting from the cradle of Christianity in spite of Muslim, Roman-Catholic and political pressures”
Any Catholics left on this site? Any Catholics left who remember that
much of Serbia originally was in the Roman patriarchate and not the
Byzantine one? Any Catholics who object to this BS?
42 Comment by david montoute on 23 July 2008:
Joe # 37
Other, equally detailed investigations put civilian Serb deaths at 17,000 out of a similar TOTAL casualty count (i.e. civilian & military) of 98,000. Factoring in the military casualties & the admittedly smaller number of dead Croat civilians, and you’re pretty far from “83% of civilian casualties being Bosniak “.
Given that Bosnian Serbs were far better equipped than the nascent Bosnian Muslim army, it’s not too surprising that the muslims bore a heavier toll.
But this not about ghoulish body counts. The point that Mr. Trifkovic is making is that once you initiate a war, atrocities are entirely predictable (and inevitable). If either of us were given a gun and placed in hostile surroundings day in and day out, it wouldn’t be too long before we comitted “mistakes” and atrocities of our own.
However, quite far from the craziness of the battlefields are the cynical manipulators who from behind the scenes set these processes in motion, playing with and throwing away the lives of millions of people.
I find that a bit harder to sympathize with.
43 Comment by Michael Averko on 23 July 2008:
Joe:
To elaborate on some of what you’ve said. Srebrenica was supposed to have been a safe haven zone. Izetbegovic forces fired on Serb positions, with Srebrenica’s Muslims caught in the middle. The Serbs offered to have them transported to Izetbegovic’s side. That side refused to take them in. They obviously preferred the propaganda of seeing killed Muslim civilians in crossfire. At the time, Srebrenica’s Muslim population was on record for disliking the stance taken by the Izetbegovic side.
I hope you aren’t suggesting that the side with the most civilian casualties is by default the more righteous one. That’s not always true. The Bosnian Civil War is far more murky than some like Niall Ferguson suggest.
As for what happened in Srebrenica during the entire Bosnian Civil War, I’ve yet to see direct proof that 7000-8000 Muslim males were rounded up and summarily executed. Srebrenica’s wartime dead include men, women and children of Muslim and non-Muslim backgrounds. They died as armed combatants, “collateral damage” (a term used in other conflicts) and by summary execution. The latter constituting a war crime.
There were earlier stated Bosnian Muslim nationalist lies about mass rapes in the tens of thousands and a death toll much higher than what could be reasonably believed at the time of the claim.
With this in mind, it’s extremely vulgar how some of the Bosnian Muslim nationalist supporters attempt to defame those making reasonable points that challenge their disingenuous propaganda.
———————————————————————————–
Regarding a recent point stated at this thread, I recall Karadzic noting how the minority portion of Virginia sought ot stay in the union at the time of the American Civil War. Hence the creation of West Virginia.
In retrospect, Bosnia’s Serbs, Croats and anti-Izetbegovic Muslims (like Fikret Abdic) could’ve coordinated an alliance to oppose Izetbegovic.
44 Comment by Eagle on 23 July 2008:
Herr Wolff, grow up and get real.
If we are to discuss Germany we should discuss her stupidity in wading in to yet another Anglo-American engineered Balkan crisis. She cannot help herself, it seems, when it comes to abusing Serbs – the only nation to be on the receiving end of German bullets three times in the twentieth century.
If the German elites would all wake up, perhaps they would realize the Anglo-American power elite is playing them against the Russians through a multitude of engineered crisis, the Balkans being only one of them. Most take the Germans as being of superior intelligence, but I question whether they are capable of simple geo-strategic planning. The Germans would achieve far more politically and economically – with Serbian support – in the Balkans, if they would stop being a lackey of the New York-London set and start behaving in a legal and moral manner more becoming of civilized nation. The New Russia is trying to educate them, but so far only a minority of German leaders are able to envision the potential for economic, politcial, and cultural freedom possible on the European continent if only Germany would wake up, cooperate with Russia and France, and help liberate the European continent from the Anglo-American politico-economic master.
45 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 23 July 2008:
Apologies to the webmaster; the following is a little off topic but is still relevant, I believe.
Hmm, it is indeed fortunate that Hitler and the Nazies existed… Otherwise, what would the MSM and Hollywood do to occupy their time, fill news sheets, movie film, video tape, and now DVD???
Methinks certain individuals protest way too much.
As a German proverb would have it: “Getroffene Hunde bellen”!
I may have gotten it wrong by calling the Serbs ‘partisans’ in which case I apologize.
However, Elizabeth may fume all she wants, but in an occupied territory the populace takes up arms against the occupiers at its increased peril.
Just ask the Palestinians and the Iraquis.
On the other hand Vichy France complied with occupation orders and life for the man/woman-in-the-street was, if not exactly beautiful, certainly much less stressful due to increased order and reduced crime from the civilian norm.
When the war is over the war is over. Get on with life.
Just a reminder for people who still don’t know this: Britain, France, and the USA in fact & deed, declared war on Germany. The Soviet Union had planned to begin its invasion of western Europe exactly one month after Germany beat them to the punch.
(I know this was all to keep Poland free for annexation by the Soviet Union!)
These may be unpopular statements but facts are facts.
Consequently, any active allies of the enemy also get it in the neck. No one ever claimed that life was fair.
Almost 65 years after WWII, THREE GENERATIONS!!! the Germans are still pilloried for some very highly questionable “historic occurrences”. Does Katyn Forest mean anything? During the Nuernberg Trials Germans were tried and executed for this little party.
Why should anybody believe anything that was written or taught about Germany and WWII?
H.F. Wolff
46 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 23 July 2008:
Eagle,
Your point is well made and I agree with it in principle.
However, you should be aware that Germany is still an occupied country that must dance to the tune of its occupiers, mainly now the USA. Germany has no constitution of its own; the Grundgesetz was dictated by the USA in the late 1940 or early 1950’s without any input from the citizens.
And we all know who calls the shots in the USA, don’t we? AIPAC ring a bell?
There was an interesting study conducted some years ago by one think tank or other, that answered the question as to which European country was responsible for the most wars over the last 200, 300, and 400 years. Guess who is at the top of the list? And who is at the bottom of this list? I’ll save you the work: Germany/Prussia are at the bottom (least war-like) of that list.
H.F. Wolff
47 Comment by Eagle on 23 July 2008:
“Why should anybody believe anything that was written or taught about Germany and WWII?” – Wolff
Indeed. Why should anyone believe anything that was written or taught about Serbia and the Wars of Yugoslav Dissolution…by the very same people??
48 Comment by Elizabeth on 23 July 2008:
‘Why should anybody believe anything that was written or taught about Germany and WWII?’
There is no doubt about the pedigree of the bomb that devastated my grandparents home and their lives.
If the Russians or Serbs blitzed England they had invisibility cloaks right out of Star Trek. It was German through and through.
I agree that Nuremberg trials were a travesty- the equivalent of the Hague and victors justice and I think judging from the reviews, I would agree with quite a bit that Pat Buchanan writes in his latest book but to contend that the Germans and the Nazi Party are misrepresented and somehow whiter than white, is just plain WRONG! They were a bunch of murderous thugs with a weird obsession verging on mania about certain myths and legends.
As for the the Vichy French – they have gone down in history the butt of disdain and contempt.
If we followed your recipe for international relations it would be might is right, winner take all and to hell with international law. Any nation can occupy another nation state and if its people object they only have themselves to blame for being murdered, raped, pillaged or otherwise attacked.
Its called the law of the jungle in common terms.
Thanks but no thanks, and all power to the Serbs.
Your road leads straight to the Jasenovics of this world and we watch as the latest Empire rushes right down it.
49 Comment by Eagle on 23 July 2008:
Well, Mr. Wolff, then allow me to recommend that little old Serbia serve as a shining example to the Germans. Surely if a small, economically weak, and encircled nation can take a stand against the imperial economic and military onslaught from America, then I would hope that the state with the largest economic production and worldwide clout could grow a backbone and shake off the shackles. And, I might add, that while Russia has no strategic reasons for risking a great deal for her ethno-religious brethern in the Balkans, the Bear may well act quite differently if presented with a “game changing” proposal from Berlin.
50 Comment by james on 23 July 2008:
@47Elizabeth
Actually Britain started bombing German cities before Germany did. But the Germans did declare slavs as sub-human and Russians as beasts and german trained muslims massacred hundreds of Serb civillians.
51 Comment by Clyde Wilson on 23 July 2008:
I continue to be astonished at the number of people here and on other posts who excuse and defend the aggressions of the totalitarian Nazi state in World War II. And who fail to understand the reason and value of Dr. Trifkovic’s exposition of U.S. government crimes in the Balkans.
52 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 23 July 2008:
Dr. Wilson,
I am quite prepared to accept Dr. Trifkovic’s exposition regarding the crimes perpetrated in the Balkans of today, the Serbs in particular.
The reason is quite simple: I have no other credible information available on which to base an opinion; therefore, until I read otherwise from what I perceive to be a more credible source, Dr. Trifkovic’s information stands with me.
A more credible source would offer verifiable documentary and scientific evidence in support of the arguments presented, and refrain from name calling. Personally I give much greater credence to proven documentary and scientific evidence than to the say-so of so-called eye witnesses.
Fortunately, or unfortunately depending on your position, that is not the case with Germany and the National Socialists for which credible information is available from a significant variety of sources. Furthermore, documentary and scientific evidence is available from between the two WW, not only from Germany, but also from USA, British, French, and other sources such as diplomatic dispatches, etc., ie. sources that have not been so contaminated by victor’s justice after WWII. Even Churchill had good things to say about Germany and the National Socialists between the wars.
Much of this information is never mentioned in the MSM for well-known reasons but has to be obtained by reading out-of-date books and magazines.
As a consequence I am most skeptical of anything I read about that period published post WWII. Let’s face it, the great majority of attacks against Germany of that time, written today, are ad hominim attacks without any substantiation whatsoever. And that certainly won’t wash with me.
Just consider what you are asking me to believe or at least give some credence: publishings and opinion pieces, without one iota of credible supporting evidence, as to the “Crimes of the Nazis and Germany” to be atoned for all eternity. A little hyperbole on my part perhaps, but very little. This information generally is written and distributed by the same tribe/interests that are causing so much grief in the world today. We all know about the “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq, right? Nothing but lies from these people for over 100 years.
Just in closing, you know of the London Times headline of 1933 whereby “Judea Declares War on Germany”, and the New York Times lead article in 1916 or 1917 regarding the holocaust of 6 million Jews in eastern Europe? That date, 1917 or 1918 is not a typo.!
Therefore you will forgive me if I do not believe that the National Socialists were the ogres they are made out to be. After all they built the original Autobahn, put family values first and foremost, passed legislation for the protection of animals and children, AND IMPROVED THE LIVING STANDARD OF THE WORKING MAN/WOMAN, something that no politician of any stripe can claim for the last 30 years or so.
H.H Wolff
53 Comment by Goran M on 23 July 2008:
#51 H.H wolf.
You might not believe that the National Socialists were the ogres they are made out to be, but I do.
We Serbs saw what they did in Kragujevac & Kraljevo in 1941. They killed over 2300 innocent people (Schoolboys, woman, old folk)
They killed many Serbs in very cruel ways in the concentration camps like Sajmiste.
They supported a tyrannical regime in Croatia that killed over 600.000 Serbs in various concentration camps.
It is true that contradictions exist in history & that some parts of it are more grey, then black & white, but the image of Germans being ogres (at least in WW2) is correct.
It wasn’t the first time anyone killed innocent people in wartime, but Germany’s action in WW2 were beyond comparison.
It also disturbs me that we somehow went from discussing the Bosnian war, to Jew conspiracies. Granted there are some points made, but we should stick to the issue.
54 Comment by james on 23 July 2008:
@51H.F. Wolff
What about Germany before the war. After WW1 International Jewish banking firms like the Rothschilds were able to have complete control of Germany and lots of jews immigrated to Germany specifically the Weimar Republic were the media, theatre, artists were predominantly jewish. The Weimer Republic was a cultural cesspool filled with pornography and degrading marxist, anti-German themes in arts and media and home to senior marxist groups in Germany.
Weimar era photos:
http://judicial-inc.biz/nuremberg_laws_photo.htm
Brother Nathanael Kapner(jewish convert to christianity)
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=40
Its against this backdrop is how Hitler came to power and why he was so popular.
55 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 23 July 2008:
Elizabeth wrote, #47 above:
“If we followed your recipe for international relations it would be might is right, winner take all and to hell with international law. Any nation can occupy another nation state and if its people object they only have themselves to blame for being murdered, raped, pillaged or otherwise attacked.
Its called the law of the jungle in common terms.”
Is this not what we have now in Iraq and Afghanistan? Caused by the same people that “fought the good war” against Germany?
There is no question that the Germans were not choir boys; they were surrounded by enemies and had war declared on them. Recent opinion polls conducted in France and Holland regarding the “pain of German occupation” disclosed that for most civilians this was not painful at all. The Paris atmosphere was described as a “party” environment.
However, what the USA and its allies did during and AFTER the war is beyond the pale. It is not even a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Just read a couple of books by Bacque (sp ?).
The Serbs made their bed with the Soviets and would not down arms when occupied. They had civilians kill German soldiers. And that, by international agreement, warrants reprisals. The Germans found these reprisals quite distasteful and repugnant, but believed them necessary to curtail the massive civilian attacks on German soldiers. There is sufficient literature available to substantiate this.
Agreed that this is history and not terribly relevant to the lead story. However, the Germans are cited as examples in so many stories in a most inappropriate way and, when I stumble across such a tale I “stick my oar in” as it were and state my point of view.
And very rarely am I contradicted/corrected with verifiable facts or scientific evidence.
H.F. Wolff
56 Comment by Petunia on 23 July 2008:
So here we find at a conservative site Leftists repeating Soviet atrocity tales.
I doubt that men like Trifkovic buy the stories. Buchanan and Roberts do not.
Wolff can defend the Germans ad nauseam, but truth has never stopped the Left before. The Left loves Germany because it is a convenient scapegoat for all its crimes and cannot, by law, defend itself.
When the Soviet Union massacred Serbian, Polish, and Russian civilians, they blamed it on the Germans who were long gone. The Left blamed their crimes on a regime that no longer existed.
But the Soviet Union no longer exists either. It fell under its own dead weight. The Left – neoconservatism/liberalism – is out of date. Its ideas are no longer relevant.
When conservatives repeat worn-out Leftist propaganda, they, too, are irrelevant.
So why would a conservative beyond his expertise warn against questioning Leftist propaganda about WWII?
He wants to look semi-respectable.
But trust MEN who do not stop their ears to difficult debate, men like Buchanan and Roberts. The rest are enemies inside the gates.
57 Comment by Mike Ezzo on 23 July 2008:
Tobias, there are some Catholics and here, and no, we don’t like those comments either. But we learned long ago to avoid the Catholicism-vs-Orthodox debate since it never seemed to produce much of worth. There is enough blame to go around, as Dr. Fleming has said. Neither do I know the history of the Balkans, so I can’t argue over it with a native of that region. At least, however, we should forgive those who have done us wrong.
58 Comment by robert m. peters on 23 July 2008:
r_m @ 10
I recall hearing about Fikret Abdic and his fighters during the war. The news always presented him as the renegade Muslim fighting with the Serbian nationalists against the Bosnian government. At the time, he and his army were a strange contradiction in the narrative. It is only in recent years, through Chronicles and other sources that I have begun to understand, as you have suggested, that he calls the Muslim-Western narrative of the war into question.
59 Comment by slim on 23 July 2008:
To Serbs and their supporters: while most US Jews are tremendous chumps and fell for the hoax, some of us know the truth and support the Serbs 100%. Real supporters of Israel know that the Serbs are the ‘Jews’ of the Balkans.
I’ve seen no evidence that Serbs committed atrocities anywhere near the scale of those committed by the Islamists. Regarding the Islamists (and Croats), there are websites with photos and names of the Serb victims.
As far as the Islamist victims, all we have is lie after lie, nonexistent photos of soccer fields, freezer trucks, and similar absurdities.
Not to mention that no one lies as much as jihadists (Markale, Racak, Srebrenica, etc.) and their allies (who had the power of Western media at their disposal).
60 Comment by Adam Neira on 24 July 2008:
Thank-you for the above analysis.
61 Comment by john steppling on 24 July 2008:
excellent.
62 Comment by Chris on 24 July 2008:
Being aware of the horrible crimes perpetrated against the Germans by the western Allies and the USSR after WWII, I find H.F. Wolff’s excuses for Germany’s actions sickening.
This person should perhaps study the eastern front more.
It’s Germans such as this that remind me to cease defending Germany so frequently and be glad for some of the punishment visited upon this nation during and after WWII.
I wish I had not taken that Texan to task for calling an innocent young German a Nazi.
How about I punch you in the head and you refrain from fighting back if I promise not to hit you again?
What kind of bloody logic is that!?!??!
63 Comment by Elizabeth on 24 July 2008:
H F Wolff
‘Is this not what we have now in Iraq and Afghanistan? Caused by the same people that “fought the good war” against Germany?’
‘However, what the USA and its allies did during and AFTER the war is beyond the pale. It is not even a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Just read a couple of books by Bacque (sp ?).’
I can at least agree with both these statements.
In fact I said as much in my earlier posts.
But I wish the Germans has learnt some humility from their sufferings.
Not a bit of it judging by their destablising activities in the Balkans since, in what appears a vindictive desire for revenge against a courageous and noble people who resisted them.
64 Pingback by News | Serbian Unity Congress » Everyone’s Favorite Villain: Radovan Karadzic Captured, antiwar.com (Nebojsa Malic) on 24 July 2008:
[...] Those willing and able to go beyond sound bites in their quest for actual information ought to read an essay by Srdja Trifkovic, published the morning after Karadzic’s arrest. Cutting through the layers [...]
65 Comment by robert m. peters on 24 July 2008:
Elizabeth @ 57
Your words:
“I can at least agree with both these statements.”
I too can agree with both those statements, and I agree with your subsequent statements about the Germans and their destabilizing activities in the Balkans, particularly in the hubris laden years following unification. I would say, based on my experience in Germany, having lived and worked there for some years, that the machinations of the German political elites in their Balkan policies and their EU policies have not and do not enjoy wide-spread support among the Germans themselves.
Perhaps Dr. Trifkovic or another learned poster on this thread could shed some light on the following question:
Were the external actions ,as opposed to agendas within, which destabilized the Balkans/Yugoslavia in the early to mid 1990’s initiated primarily by the Germans with the Clinton administration seizing an opportunity for “action” on the German coattails, as it were, or were the Germans the followers of some Clintonian vision?
66 Comment by Elizabeth on 24 July 2008:
‘Were the external actions ,as opposed to agendas within, which destabilized the Balkans/Yugoslavia in the early to mid 1990’s initiated primarily by the Germans with the Clinton administration seizing an opportunity for “action” on the German coattails, as it were, or were the Germans the followers of some Clintonian vision?’
Good question Robert.
67 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 24 July 2008:
Chris #56:
“I find H.F. Wolff’s excuses for Germany’s actions sickening.”
Yes indeed, unwelcome facts are always “sickening”. Why not refute my position with verifiable evidence?
I personally find it sickening that the third generation of Germans is still being brow beaten into paying for questionable historic occurrences. Yet when a country such as Lithuania investigates communist atrocities pointing to Jewish involvement, this investigation is stonewalled by the Israelis and American Jews because “any such inquiry is a travesty” (due to the unprecedented suffering of the Jews), right?
I also find it sickening that a USA president gets indicted for his extra curricular sexual activities, and another president, responsible for the murder of 1,000,000 or so civilians, gets off scott free. Of course there is a lot of arm waving and synthetic outrage on this issue to placate the masses, but nothing concrete is being done!
Elizabeth #57 / Peters #58:
As I mentioned earlier, above, Germany is still an occupied country dancing to the tune of its occupiers, now mostly the USA and its controllers AIPAC. I am prepared to be educated on this issue by means of an independent, authoritative, credible, dissertation published about these recent occurrences in the Balkans.
H.F. Wolff
68 Comment by james on 24 July 2008:
If western powers didn’t promote ansd sponsor the overthrough of the Czar there would have been no soviet union and no WW2.
The wealthiest banking firms in the world helped financied the bolshevik revolution helping set up marxist parties in Russian regions. How many people know that the bulk of the first communist government of Russia comprised of non-Russian immigrants from New York.
Gulags were setup up long before Stalin came to power by this newly formed government and marxist orientated journalist in the west who were scoulding the Czarist government were giving high praise to the new regime.
It seems since the enlightment foreign policy is set to overthrough every christian country on earth. Since the 90’s the US and its western allies have supported muslms over christians in every coflict Bosnians and Kosovars over Serbs, Chechens over Russians and Azeris over Armenians.
69 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 24 July 2008:
It appears that the identifier # of each post is changing as more posts are added.
Consequently, referring to an earlier post by using its current # is most confusing at a later time.
Perhaps we should use the date & time of the post as an identifier?
H.F. Wolff
70 Comment by Michael Averko on 24 July 2008:
Serbs: The Nation the West Sacrifices
http://en.fondsk.ru/article.php?id=1498
71 Comment by james on 24 July 2008:
I read above where someone is accusing the author of stating that “Srebrenica is an invented circus”. I did not see anything in the article that resembled this. I think one of the main points that many seem to be missing here is that the Muslims were just as guilty of these horrific things that Karadzic will be jailed for, but they seem to be getting a “pass” for it.
72 Comment by Elizabeth on 24 July 2008:
Michael
that article is so true it could make me cry.
Talk about shooting something in the foot.
How can so many Serbs come to that sort of betrayal of their own people to folk who murdered their neighbours and devastated their country for 78 days and nights, bombing it ‘back to the stoneage’.
How can they?
James and HF Wolff
I take it you are familiar with the British Journalist Mike James in Germany.
He is also a lawyer and is firmly convinced the German state isn’t even legal. Its still the third reich amking the EU actually non-existent. \very persausive.
He has just successfully challenged the German laws on the holocaust by the way.
Also if you key in Germany on the ‘What really happened’ site you will bring up a load of photographs of what actually was done to the Germans post WW2. Being fair minded one can only say it is horrendous.
Let me add that the head of British bomber Command ‘bomber’ Harris was never given the peerage that the other war commanders received. It is suggested because people were quite rightly totally sickened by Dresden and much more.
73 Comment by Michael Averko on 24 July 2008:
A quite informative and accurate CBC segment with James Bissett, which debunks the standard propaganda:
http://cbc.ca/ottawa/media/audio/allinaday/20080724radovan.ram
Oric’s forces committed atrocities, with Oric openly bragging about it. Yet, he was let go.
My thanks to BB for informing me of the above linked feature.
74 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 24 July 2008:
Below is a Canadian newspaper columnist’s opinion on the subject at hand. Commentary is invited.
http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2008/07/24/6249551-sun.php
Elizabeth: I have indeed read some of Mike James’ writings. he is a most compelling author.
H.F. Wolff
75 Comment by james on 24 July 2008:
@58slim
Lets bebunk the myth that jews have been historically mistreated for no reason other than being jews. Jewish insider defector Benjamin Freedman addressed this issue back in the 60’s.
The majority of jews and jewish groups lobbied and supported Bosnians and Kosovar Albanians even though Italian officials warned them that they were involved in organised crime they knew what they were really like yet they gave them there full support. Yet at the same time lobbying for a pro-Israel stance.
They also support the gangster jewish oligarghs, now exile in Russia. Boris Berezovsky is under the protection of jewish groups in London who brags of funding and influencing the two major political parties in Britian and trying to overthrough christian defendor Vladimir Putin in Russia.
Jewish groups are also the main force behind censoring the internet like the ADL who provided a “tolerance” filter for libraries in the US and pushing fourth the adoption of hate laws like they did in Canada.
@70Elizabeth
Is his articles sometimes posted on rense.com.
76 Comment by Elizabeth on 24 July 2008:
James
Mike James pops up all over the place on all sorts of sites.
One of my favourites is ‘what really happened’ and he is posted on that.
I think he is on Rense, Truthseeker, Propaganda Matrix etc etc.
I am not really very expert on some of these. I just have an occasional peep at one or two and they double up somewhat.
I like Rense but from a different aspect – they have some way out – believe it or not stuff. Fun.
Mike James has just scored a victory for freedom of speech in Germany.
I cannot believe that anyone on this thread believes in prison for daring to question the holocaust. Or in Mr James’s case or David Irving’s the numbers involved.
Intellectual freedom is affronted by the idea that one topic is so sacrisanct that nobody can even question the merest of details.
It leaves the uncomfortable feeling that there is perhaps something not quite right about the accepted facts.
Anyway Mr James has just made the point that as he was not born when it occurred he cannot possibly have witnessed it and if he didn’t witness it he cannot verify the truth or otherwise – well along these lines anyway. So they had to let him go.
His friends are suggesting that he had better watch his step as he is receiving threats – in fact leave Germany.
So much for any regard for the accuracy or otherwise of historical truth.
In fact the US neocons who are almost exclusively Jewish – for what it is worth – were not only the driving force behind Iraq, Afghanistan and now Iran, they were also the driving force against Serbia. Madeline Albright, Richard Holbrooke etc etc all Jewish too.
Now what annoys me about it is nothing to do with their cultural or religious origins – its the sheer disgraceful hypocrisy of it all.
Remember the attack on Lebanon.? Brutal.
Remember the claim that Israel had a right to defend itself against Islamic terror?.
Well where was Israel when the Serbs were trying their utmost to defend Themselves aginst islamic terror?.
Israel was silent and the USA Jewish lobbies were egging the Clinton admin on. Engaging in the same lies. Same patterns each time.
That I do not like.
77 Comment by james on 24 July 2008:
@74Elizabeth
Dont forget Tom Lanto a titanic piece of S who according wikipedia:
On May 3, 2000, Lantos was involved in an automobile accident while driving on Capitol Hill. Lantos drove over a young boy’s foot and then failed to stop his vehicle. He was later fined over the incident for inattentive driving.[39]
78 Comment by Elizabeth on 24 July 2008:
And Bob Dole was up to his neck. Part Albanian by the way. What a loser too.
His wife Elizabeth was the head of the US Red Cross which refused any help for the Serbs and the hundreds of thousands of Serb refugees.
They have never had another penny from me and a bit of my mind when I see a collection box.
I know others who feel the same.
79 Comment by slim on 24 July 2008:
#73 James:
According to Jared Israel’s website, Israel supported the Serbs by shipping weapons to the Serbs (in exchange for taking the few Serbian Jews remaining).
The rest of your post is getting into some strange Jewish conspiracy stuff. If Jews control the media, why would we use it to constantly try to revise history and delegitimize Israel’s existence? Why would we describe all Jews that defend Israel as ‘hardline rightwing ultra nationalists’? This is the exact same thing that Western media does to the Serbs.
Jewish politicians and lobby groups in the US are basically clueless and/or lackeys of the US State Department. The Jews that supported the Bosnians are the same Jews that support the creation of an Islamic Nazi state on Jewish land. Or a better way to put it is that the Jews that continue to support the Srebrenica fraud (even after time and the internet have debunked it) are nothing more than modern day kapos.
The US State Dept has such a stranglehold on this issue that 99.9% of Americans were fooled and are still fooled. No college professors can teach the truth, for they will be fired.
Jews were in the same propaganda bubble as the rest of Americans, but the few that know the truth try to spread the message.
80 Comment by james on 24 July 2008:
@77slim
Four of the largest five entertainment giants are now run or owned by Jews. Murdoch’s News Corp (at number four) is the only
gentile holdout — however Rupert is as pro-Israel as any Jew, probably more so.” (Los Angeles Jewish Times242 Oct. 29. 1999)
“revise history and delegitimize Israel’s existence” The american press is pro-Israel when have they done this.
We have fought a war in Iraq for Israel and about invade Iran which will be much harder, more bloody and sink the US and the global economy deeper in debt with likely skyrocketing oil prices.
As the Haaretz article describes it:
“The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history”.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
Major jewish organisations like the simon weisenthal centre and others as well as jewish columnists urgued the US to take an anti-serb bias as well as zionist politicians like Tom Lantos and Joe Lieberman.
In fact Simon Weisenthal made an impassioned speech in front of the worlds press at an event with Bill Clinton in attendance pleading with him for the US to intervene on behalf of the muslims.
These jewish organisations have regular contact with Isreali politicians and intellegence agents so they knew what exactly was going on.
When a found out the truth about the Balkans and the key players that helped bring about the destruction of the Serbs, Madeline Albright, Richard Holbrooke, Bernard Kouchner, Wesley Clark, George Soros I was suprised to learn they were all Jews.
Jews help project the myth that Milosevic was the new Hitler and the Serbs were commiting a “holocaust” against the muslims to great a greater Serbia.
The fake Serb death camp hoax that was pivotal in demonising the Serbs and global sympathy for Bosnian jihadists was an ITN report (British news) which ownership is jewish.
@74Elizabeth
I dont know if your aware of jewish political movements .
You should read some of Prof Kevin MacDonalds works.He describes jewish political movements and there leadership role in marxist communism, open immigration, feminism, multi-culturalism and Neo-conservatism.
Referencing jewish sources themselves he describes how jews create political movement to shape society for own political agenda.
81 Comment by slim on 24 July 2008:
You mentioned:
“Four of the largest five entertainment giants are now run or owned by Jews. Murdoch’s News Corp (at number four) is the only
gentile holdout — however Rupert is as pro-Israel as any Jew, probably more so.” (Los Angeles Jewish Times242 Oct. 29. 1999)”
who are these media owners? Where is the evidence that Rupert Murdoch is pro-Israel? His FOX channel has featured anti-Israel zealots Vince Cannistraro and Ray McGovern. He’s not pro Israel.
“The american press is pro-Israel when have they done this.
We have fought a war in Iraq for Israel and about invade Iran which will be much harder, more bloody and sink the US and the global economy deeper in debt with likely skyrocketing oil prices.”
You are not familiar with American press, where every major news outlet attacked Israel on Israel’s 60th birthday, all Islamic nazis (both Balkan and Arab) are described as ‘moderate’ while the Jews that resist them are ‘rightwing ultra nationalists’.
This is not ‘pro Israel’ by any definition.
“As the Haaretz article describes it:
“The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history”.”
Some of them are ethnic Jews–but they have no loyalty to Judaism nor to Israel. And the head neocon is Zalmay Khalilzad. You hate the Jewish ones b/c Western media has resurrected all of Goebbels’ antisemitic lies over the past 7 years (overwhelming powers of AIPAC, neocon Jews, etc.).
There’s no evidence that these neocon Jews do anything pro Israel. And all the same news sources that say this garbage are entirely in love with Khalilzad.
Why would a government that hired tens of thousands of Axis allied fascists after WWII (documented in Christopher Simpson’s ‘Blowback’) allow ‘pro Israel’ Jews to run the media or the government? This is nonsense–but if you hear this enough it does sound believable.
The US government is beholden to the Arabs, just like it has always been.
82 Comment by Elizabeth on 25 July 2008:
We should be careful on this board not to appear anti-jewish because we are all perfectly aware that there are Jews and Jews, like any other national group.
Perhaps we should use the word Zionist because it appears to me that it is Zionism that is predominantly the force that is increasing anti-semitism right across the planet as opinion polls show. Because so many of Serbia’s enemies, as pointed out, are Zionists it cannot be ignored as a factor and is a legitimate discussion point.
Even within Israel itself Zionists are pushing the Palestinians increasingly off their own land – one way or another – in a parallel to the muslim take over of Kosovo. I have always suspected that an ‘independent’ Kosovo is a blueprint for the Zionists intention re Palestine.
One question that should be answered is why the neoconservatives and fellow travellers and the dominance they hold in the media (I heard that Murdoch’s mother is Jewish – that correct?) are so anti-Serb.
Is it because they see Serbia as a surrogate for Russia? Russia is an untouchable but Serbia could be attacked and humilated and dismembered in lieu?.
Or was the reason, much touted, that Serbia was the christian sacrifice to the Saudis in order to curry favour with a quite vile regime because of oil.
With the Russians now talking to the Saudis in their strategy to tie up all energy supplies they may have wasted their time.
As James has pointed out (and his assertions are widely supported within the USA – as shown on numerous sites (‘Antiwar’ is a class act) AIPAC and the jewish lobby virtually control the United States. That Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran are for the interest of Israel is becoming pretty universally accepted. What is not so widely known is the same Jewish interests control the British too. The British Board of Deputies and the parliamentary ‘Friends of Israel’ pull the strings here. The new British foreign minister Miliband is a Polish Jew his father and grandfather rabid communists.
I am aware of Prof Kevin MacDonald’s writings and for those who don’t it is another scandalous case of an academic who has dared to question the Zionist sacred cows and is being threatened with his job, his reputation in an attempt to silence.
Again it is the Nazi-(sorry HF) style suppression of any debate on the whole question of Zionism and the holocaust that makes people like me suspicious of what lies and distortions have been presented for 60 years as fact.
If you want an example of what draconian injustice is being done to ensure this suppression google in ‘Ernst Zundel’.
One thing is indisputable, Serbia owes many of its woes to the neoconservatives and the US state department and the Jewish dominance therein.
With the history of the Serbs support for the Jewish community – the Albright family a classic – it is a vicious and unjust act of ingratitude if nothing else.
83 Comment by Kumbaya on 25 July 2008:
Now “war criminal” is captured by Serbian vassal and will be handed to imperial overlord in big hurry.
Serbs yawn. No one care that nation, pride and principle is sold for thirty pieces of silver. (Actually IOU for 30 pieces of silver).
Serbs do not deserve freedom. Yoke of colonial rule is now almost around neck and sheeple cheering “faster, faster.”
All Serbs in diaspora can now look forward to daily propaganda lies as “trial” in Holland proceeds.
Imperial propaganda only purpose behind show trials. Serb vassals who make show trials possible–first Milosevic, now Karadjic–solely responsible for tarring Serb honor.
Will live in page of history as despised traitors of Serb nation.
Kumbaya observe that Serb history lacking traitors until now. Too bad…
84 Comment by slim on 25 July 2008:
Elizabeth said:
“AIPAC and the jewish lobby virtually control the United States. That Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran are for the interest of Israel is becoming pretty universally accepted. What is not so widely known is the same Jewish interests control the British too. The British Board of Deputies and the parliamentary ‘Friends of Israel’ pull the strings here. The new British foreign minister Miliband is a Polish Jew his father and grandfather rabid communists.”
Actually, there’s no evidence that AIPAC controls the US–there is only fascist propaganda that states such. It’s unfortunate that you and James believe all the fascist lies you are told about the Jews, even after the Serbs have been the victims of the same types of lies.
The US government has been covertly arming and traning al fatah, an offshoot of Husseini’s final solution, for 50+ years. The US government helped hide Eichmann until Israel found him. The British government appointed Husseini to Grand Mufti, and like the US government, still describes Islamist genocidal Jewhaters as ‘moderates’.
Israel has been shrinking for 40 years, and did engage in ethnic cleansing–of Jews who were cleansed from Gaza. In 1948, the Arab countries expelled all their Jews, who were accepted by Israel. The Arabs deliberately keep the palestinian Arabs as squattors on land promised to Jews in the Mandate and Balfour.
There is Jewish ‘theft’ of palestinian Arab land just like there were plans for ‘greater Serbia’. It’s basically a big lie. Most palestinian Arabs moved to the region only after Jews showed up and built an economy.
Also what you do not comprehend is that Judaism is an ideology. Albright is not Jewish (in any way). Jews that are supposedly ‘pro Israel’ are actually not pro Israel at all and are married to Arabs (Wolfowitz, Jamie Rubin). Only the most non-religious and traitorous of Jews are hired into top cabinet/government posts.
Again, if AIPAC runs the show here, why are Islamic nazis called ‘moderates’ and why are the Jews that resist them called ‘rightwing nationalists’?
85 Pingback by News | Serbian Unity Congress » Having to argue the obvious, Gray Falcon blog (Nebojsa Malic) on 25 July 2008:
[...] of the Bosnian Serbs.” Again, it seems obvious – but everyone except Laughland (and Srdja Trifkovic, earlier in the week) has been too busy calling for Serb blood to even wonder. Laughland makes the [...]
86 Comment by The Pain on 25 July 2008:
What does any of this Leftist banter have to do with Karadzik, Bosnia, or European civilization?
87 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 25 July 2008:
Elizabeth:
No apologies required… I enjoy reading your posts. You should be aware that during the war the curtailment of free speech was by far greater in Britain and the USA, than under the National Socialists in Germany.
Hard to believe, what? I don’t remember exactly where I read this, but I believe it was from an allied occupation report published after the war.
Slim:
If you are not a troll, GOOGLE is your friend. Look up media ownership in the USA, Britain, Canada etc. It should make your hair curl.
As to AIPAC control of the USA. Why do you think that every USA politician of note, hundreds of them, attend the annual AIPAC meetings and kowtow/grovel in the most subservient manner to these Israel-firsters? And then travel to Israel for additional brain washing?
Read the Walt / Mearsheimer (sp?) report regarding AIPAC.
Look up the credentials of these two authors.
Again, all this info is easily available in the blogoshpere but you have to look for it. Also some Israeli media outlets trumpet the Zionist superiority over USA politicos. Look up the speeches of some recent Israeli prime Ministers and Presidents.
H.F. Wolff
88 Comment by Elizabeth on 25 July 2008:
Slim
It just so happens that today on ‘Antiwar’ an exemplary and highly reputable website, there is an item by Paul Craig Roberts.
Now Mr Roberts has an excellent record as a former cabinet minister under Reagan and is very highly regarded in the United States as a columnist. He is a real insider and knows exactly what he is talking about.
You will find it most informative and right on topic.
Hot off the press so to speak….
http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=13193
89 Comment by Kumbaya on 25 July 2008:
What is all this nonsense about Jews?
Yes, many powerful individuals in Imperial Court are Jews. Does not mean they care about being Jewish. They care about being Imperial nabobs.
James is right that Albright et al spearheaded anti-Serb campaign. But street-level Jews have different opinion of Serbs.
There is large disconnect between ordinary Jews and Imperial Nabobs–just like there is big disconnect between ordinary Americans and George Bush.
Simple Fact: Imperial Ruling Elites are color-blind and religion-blind. Only care about imperial power and loyalty to emperor.
To call them Jews, Christians, Muslims makes no sense–they are none. They are Ruling Elites. It is separate race.
Kumbaya Observation: Ruling elites always use simple strategy: divide and conquer. Set black man against white, even though both are slaves. Going on for 100 years.
Ruling elites laugh all the way to bank while black man and white man too busy fighting each other to see real enemy.
Same with Jews, Muslims, Serbs, etc.
Kumbaya ask: No one see irony of Empire working with Muslim against Serb and Russian, while slaughtering other Muslim for Israel?
Btw, Israel not Jewish state. Israel Imperial Garrison in very strategic spot.
Open Eyes. See more clearly.
90 Comment by james on 25 July 2008:
@80Elizabeth
Actually Soviet records show that Milliband grandfather or father was a general in the red army before his family emigrated to the UK.
@85Kumbaya
Kumbaya ask: No one see irony of Empire working with Muslim against Serb and Russian, while slaughtering other Muslim for Israel?
Thats the problem I have hypocrisy. In 2003 the US with the aid of Turkey transported all the militants from Afghanistan and moved there base to the Panski Gorge which already has a hugh US military presence.
Does nobody find this a little odd.
But where are the Jews and Jewish groups protesting against the likes of Madeline Albright, Holbrooke, Kouchner and Soros.
Are there any jewish websites or online radio stations against these people and there policies. If there is I’ve yet to see them.
Theres plenty of US websites and online radio stations like RBN protesting US domestic and foreign policy.
Offtopic but another great article from Justin Raimondo http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13192 be good if Chronicles or Paul Craig Roberts covered the topic.
91 Comment by slim on 25 July 2008:
Kumbaya,
You have hit the nail on the head. The people at the top have no religion. The biggest lie Western media perpetrates is when it calls people like Wolfowitz ‘pro Israel zionists’ when he is neither ‘pro Israel’ nor a ‘Zionist’. He is a lackey for the antisemitic US State Department–nothing more.
Israel could get nuked and Wolfowitz, Perle, etc would not genuinely care one iota, for they craft the policy that increases the possibility of this happening.
James–for you to be correct, you’d need to tell me when, where, and how the Jews took over the government from the Jewhaters. Read Christopher Simpson’s ‘Blowback’.
The US incites hatred of Israel by pretending that the two move in lockstep–which is fiction.
There are are some websites that speak the truth, hirhome, tenc.net, 4international.wordpress, but when the fascist forces are against you, you will have a hard time getting your word out.
US Jew Jared Israel wrote to many newspapers during the 1990s in support of the Serbs, and none would publish his letters. There are no Jews at the top of US media, and the few that are near the top are like Soros–a nazi sympathizer.
Don’t believe the lies. US media deemed ‘pro Israel zionists’ are actually the opposite, much like US media deemed ‘Islamic moderates’ are the opposite.
92 Comment by Kumbaya on 25 July 2008:
Trifkovic’s article:
Srdja has done a decent job of providing a reasonably detailed account of the Bosnia story as it played out in the 1990’s.
What he has not done is to put the story in a larger context.
What does he mean by the “reorganization of Europe,” post 1989?
What happened after German reunification was not just a “reorganization” of the European sub-continent, but a tectonic shift. In simple terms, the recolonization of the Balkans.
Where was Bosnia in 1914? Croatia? Slovenia? Part of Austro-Hungarian Empire. Much of south Balkan peninsula still part of declining Ottoman Turk Empire.
In 1918, with Serb defeat of Austria-Hungary–at unimagible human cost–Croats, Bosniaks and Slovenes ran to latch onto skirt of Mother Serbia and thus was born Yugoslavia.
It is important to understand the dynamic that led to the recolonization of the Balkans in the 1990s. It has almost nothing to do with the supposed unviability of the Yugoslav federation or aspiration of ethnic groups for their own nation states.
It has everything to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the West’s imagined victory in the Cold War. Yugoslavia was the low-hanging fruit that could now be plucked.
In other words, the dissolution of Yugoslavia was engineered from the outside, by the West–in order to expand the empire. Could anyone seriously imagine the violent dismemberment of Yugoslavia during the Soviet era?
But not only did the West engineer the dissolution of Yugoslavia, it decided to do it violently.
Trifkovic notes correctly that the real friction point was that the West would not countenance the adjustment of Republic borders. Why?
How is it that Kosovo can be split off from Serbia, but Bosnian Serbs cannot split from the artifical state of Bosnia? Or Croatian Serbs from Croatia?
How is it that the artificial state of Israel can illegally occupy foreign territory for more than 40 years and the US can bless a “peace plan” that would split off much of what remains of Palestine and deliver it to Israel?
How is it that Abkhazians and South Ossetians cannot split from Georgia? Or that the Kurds cannot split from Turkey?
There is no consistency there whatsoever. No principle of law or precedent or any discussion of historical claims to the disputed lands.
But there is one common thread–the aggressive, even bellicose, line of the US and its Nato puppet in pursuying global hegemony. The empire wants to redraw the world’s map they way it sees fit and it is willing to slaughtrer millions to do so.
This is the truth about all of the post-Cold War conflicts. They are all brought on by the War Machine of the Empire.
Would any violence even have occured in the Balkans if the empire had allowed the administrative borders of the Yugoslav repuplics to be adjusted to reflect the ethnic reality? Not a single drop.
Would there be a million dead in Iraq right now and the country a living hell if America had not invaded for no reason whatsoever?
Would there be a war in Afghanistan?
It is important to see the big picture. What is the history of the US? British colonists stealing an entire continent that belongs rightfully to the indigenous people.
Stealing land is old hat to these people. That’s why they plunged the Balkans into war to steal Serb land. That’s why the open wound of Palestine continues to fester so they can steal Palestinian land.
It is also worth noting that this US empire operates with unrestrained hubris, which will be its downfall.
Students of past empires will note that even mighty Rome acted with wisdom when it was called for. America is incapable of such.
93 Comment by Kumbaya on 25 July 2008:
Elizabeth:
Jewish people also brainwashed by propaganda. They are victims just like ordinary people everywhere.
Most Jews want to live in peace and want government to end occupation. Even many Jewish leaders.
Problem is US will not let them.
We live in an age of mass media, which equates to mass mind control.
This has never happened before in history. Always throughout history, people knew what was what.
Empires did not try to operate on the sly–they were very open.
Human rights for common folk did not exist and everyone knew that. You just dealt with it.
Today people brainwashed into believing they have “rights” but actually are more enslaved than ever in history.
Workings of power are opaque to all except those at the controls.
This is the victory of mass mind control through mass media.
94 Comment by Elizabeth on 25 July 2008:
James
I don’t know how familiar you are with ‘Antiwar.’
It is a Libertarian/Paleo/Conservative site which was originally set up at the time of the Yugoslav conflict to put the Serbian point of view.
The left and the right were relatively united In favour of the Serbs – it was the neo liberal and neo conservatives that opposed.
I attended the demonstration in Trafalgar square and can remember Tony Benn speaking brilliantly together with some real right wingers – whose names elude me.
Anyone looking for a first time will see the name Nabojsa Malic. He writes a weekly column on the Balkan goings on – very well indeed.
He also blogs under ‘grey falcon’.
In general you will find the site supportive of Serbia – although the news items are lifted from international media and are, of course, not always so friendly. But the commentaries generally are, often and fairly supportive of Russia and highly critical of the ‘Empire’.
It suits my politics and views very well.
I would commend it to anyone.
95 Comment by slim on 25 July 2008:
‘Antiwar’ has some good coverage regarding the Balkans–but beware in that some of the biggest defenders of the Serbs from the Ustashe/handzar, such as Raimondo, Edward Herman, Chomsky, are HUGE defenders of these same nazis and their failed ‘final solution’ regarding the Jews.
I don’t know if they deliberately play divide and conquer, or if the pro-Islamist propaganda line is so strong in the US that they just won’t defend Israel. But be wary of them. Jared Israel and Francisco Gil White are two writers that IMO have a good comprehension of US geopolitical strategy–and it’s very pro Islamist.
Also, if you study the Israeli ‘occupation’ in any depth you will see that this is a huge lie.
1) this land was promise to Jews in the 1920s and has been illegally taken by the ‘world court’ repeatedly since then,
2) the pentagon determined in a 1968 study that Israel MUST have these areas for survival (they are highland regions), yet the US State Dept continually forces Israel to give this land to Islamists while calling Israelis in this land ‘occupiers’,
3) Israel captured these lands (not part of any sovereign nation) in defensive wars, which means that they are NOT illegally occupied at all.
And of course none of this would be a big deal unless the proposed palestinian state is an ‘ethnically clean’ state, as kosovo is becoming.
4) The pali movement is Husseini inspired propaganda fraud that is supported by the UNRWA (funded mostly by the US).
If you study it deeply, you’ll see that all the allegations against Israel are BS.
Israel is ‘occupying’ no more than Serbs are/were ‘occupying’ Kosovo. Same lies perpetrated by the same UN/NATO fascists.
But like I said, I read that Israel supported the Serbs, and US Jews would have done the same except for our brainwashing media.
96 Comment by slim on 25 July 2008:
Kumbaya,
google and read ‘British Record on Partition’ and then make note that NO modern media tells these details. This article was removed from ‘the Nation’s searchable online archive.
Read Francisco Gil White’s history of the palestinian movement. This entire movement is the covert pet of the British, then Soviet, now US elites, used to demonize Israel just as Srebrenica is used to demonize Serbs.
It will be an eyeopener–but all that you think you know about Israel (possibly gleaned from hypocrites like Raimondo) is fiction.
Kind of like the way the Serbs never had any cleansing/brutality policy against Muslims in Serbia, Israel has no such policy against Israeli Arabs. Thus why would Israel torment palestinian Arabs?
They are a propaganda nuisance over which Israel has no control, but Israel has never cleansed/eradicated them. They are used by the US to demonize Israel.
97 Comment by PcH on 25 July 2008:
Slim-
What about Karadzik?
So far your own comments boast of:
Stealing other people’s lands.
Murdering them.
Making war on all your neighbors.
Coveting more property from your neighbors.
Violating international law.
Complaining that the $10 billion yearly donation from the US is not enough.
Hatred of the whole world.
Genocide of Palestinian Christians.
And then you say that everyone is out to get you?
What does any of this have to do with
Karadzic’s Arrest?
98 Comment by Kumbaya on 25 July 2008:
Slim,
I have been well aware of the work of Jared Israel for many years and have supported his website. He has done excellent work on Yugoslavia.
I still don’t know what to make of his foray into Zionism. I have read of some of his and Gil-White’s stuff and there is definitely something there.
It is possible that here too, the truth is being subverted by the powers that be.
I did look up that piece from The Nation in 1948 and it points out again the strong current of British anti-Semitism, which dates back to the time of the Crusades when Jews in Israel where massacred, burnt alive, or sold into slavery.
In 1290 after the collapse of the Crusades, the Jews were expelled en masse from England.
The Jews have a long history full of suffering and injustice and the birth of Zionizm in the 19′th century is simply the longing of a long-suffering people to return to their ancestral home.
How can one argue with that?
The Jews and Serbs have that long-suffering history in common. They also have in common beintg kicked around by imperial masters.
It is true that the British was reluctant to give Jews the homeland that had been promised to them by the League of Nations. The double-dealing British were not only anti-semitic by nature, but sought to hang on to Arab land in the Middle East. Why give the Jews a piece from their own pie?
This kind of double-dealing was nothing new to the British, who practiced the same art in occupied India–when they eventually were forced out, they turned Muslim against Hindu and forced the slicing off of Pakistan, another artificial state.
I am sympathetic to Jewish aspirations for a homeland. Even in the 19′th century they were the largest ethnic group in Jerusalem, although they made up less than 10 percent of the population of Palestine.
It is a fact that the British refused to cooperate with the UN in handing over the Jewish state. They even held prisoner, on Cyprus, Jews of “fighting age” until 1949, a year after Israel’s independence.
So yes, Israel had to fight for its freedom, even though it was promised to them. Of course, British promises aren’t worth the paper they are written on, just as the North American Indians.
With the ouster of the last of the British forces from Haifa on May 14, 1948, Israel declared independence–and was immediately recognized by the United States and the Soviet Union.
But the British were not done with their war against the Jews by any means. They managed to put through a Un Security Council arms embargo to prevent Jews from getting arms, while at the same time encouraging their Arab vassals to take the fight to Israel.
It should be noted that it was Soviet-controlled Czhechoslovakia that broke the arms embargo and supplied crucial weapons to the defenders of the newborn Jewish state.
Thanks, Uncle Joe. Of course, in today’s Imperial mythology Stalin is a monster worse than Hitler. Never mind that he managed to thwart British designs for wiping Israel off the map. (And saving Europe from Fascism before that.)
One must keep all of this in mind when talking about Israel and the Palestinians today. Yes, a lot of Arab refugees fled the fighting in 1948-1949, and the Palestinians now call that the “Naqba” or catastrophe.
But it is something of a stretch to call this ethnic cleansing. For one thing the Jewish state was fighting in self-defense against the British-instigated aggression (war was declared by all of Britain’s Arab vassals, Egypt, Syria, etc.)
So when looking at the historical picture, it is hard not to be sympathetic to the Jews. Jared and other writers believe that the Empire is out to get them too.
I would not be surprised. The emprie doesn’t care about Jews, any more than it cares about Serbs, or Albanians, or Bopsniaks or Croats, or Iraqis, or Afghans. They are all cannon fodder for the empire’s guns.
Is the empire playing both sides in the Arab-Israeli dispure? Unquestionably. One would be a fool to think otherwise.
It is also true however that the blowback of US policy in Palestine will be borne the Israelis.
Look at the Balkans. They set everyone to fighting and now they have a whole bunch of new little serfdoms to rule.
Do you think they don’t want that in the Middle East too?
99 Comment by slim on 25 July 2008:
kumbaya,
I exchanged a couple of emails with Jared Israel, and found him to be very obnoxious and a tremendous jerk, but I don’t believe he or FGW are ‘funded’ or ‘corrupted’ by anyone.
The alliances from WWII have not changed much, except for the fact that the Allen Dulles ilk in the US hired the entire Nazi intelligence apparatus into US intelligence.
The US has many Jews, and we are blinded with mass quantities of big lies–even as the US topples Iraqi Baathism and spreads sharia yet again.
Jared’s ‘bumbling bear’ article explains this very well.
Israel, much like Serbia, US, Britain has good and bad–but fundamentally it’s a tolerant culture that would like to live in peace. Israel does not prop up the refugee issue. Israel has even built nice housing for refugees, but the UNRWA scuttled it for a variety of propaganda reasons.
Jewish and Serbian ideals are resistant to fascism. George Soros cannot run roughshod over the masses wherevever such people reside. They must crush us.
I wish Israel had the godlike powers James ascribes to them, but it’s looking like Israel could go to war in the near future. No one ever believes that the Jews are not almighty until the genocide is over. Not unlike WWII.
PcH–not sure what is up your keester. I was only referring to validity that was given to the pro-Islamist lies told about Israel. There are many Jews in the US, SOME actually keep in touch with what is going on, and many speak hebrew.
It’s MUCH tougher for the fascist forces to pull off such a hoax against Israel. But it’s not for a lack of trying. Note that NO WESTERN MEDIA is repudiating the al dura hoax. They are happy to lynch the Jews, and never say anything when the islamist hoax is exposed.
100 Comment by PcH on 26 July 2008:
Elizabeth/Slim/Kumbaya (one person) -
When you necons/libs started the genocide of Serbia, did it occur to you what filling Europe with militarized Muslims would do? This religious group is so fanatically anti-Semitic, they make the Nazis look like milk and cookies. Now you have introduced Jew-hating suicide-bombers all over Europe with a home base in Bosnia and the Serbian heartland.
They believe killing Jews is the will of Allah. They make this their purpose in life. So although you neocons/libs thought you were just beginning the genocide of Europe by flooding the continent with fanatical Muslims, you were also planting the seeds of your own destruction.
Next time you all want to destroy a little country like Serbia, think of the consequences. Don’t be so blinded by bloodlust.
101 Comment by slim on 26 July 2008:
pch,
The ‘neocons’, which once upon a time might have actually been ‘pro Israel’ are nothing other than US propaganda comic book characters.
None of them, particularly their leader Zalmay Khalilzad is remotely Jewish, or remotely ‘pro Israel’. Some of them have Jewish names–but they are as Jewish as Christmas trees.
It is clear to me that non-Western media, even more than Western media, blames US geopolitical policy on these ‘Jewish’ neocons, which thus causes the masses to think that this is how Jews think and this is how Israel thinks.
Like I said: I’ve read some articles indicating that Israel supported the Serbs. The US incites global Jewhate by lying and saying that the US and Israel are ‘best buddies’ which is a lie. Islamist thugs fire rockets at Israeli civilians every day–so clearly they have no fear that the US will swoop in to kill them.
The reality is that in 1982, the US swooped in to rescue Arafat, and the US brought him back to continue his divide and conquer Jewhate. These are documented–but not well publicized, for it interferes with the ‘we love the Jews!’ big lie. The US has also (on multiple occasions) rescued hizbolla when Israel was on the virge of crushing them. Israel has all of these weapons–and the US does not let Israel use them. When Israel engages in anti-jihadist self defense, Western media attacks–Israel! So much for our ‘pro Israel’ media…
The US State Department has always been pro-fascist, pro-Islamist. This started when Allen Dulles, Jack Philby, and Ibn Saud all colluded to get rich off of oil, fascism, and a maniacal hatred of communism. The US State Department after WWII absorbed the ENTIRE NAZI INTELLIGENCE APPARATUS, and all of its policies are consistent with this. Wolfowitz, Perle, etc. are modern day kapos–not representative of all Jews, especially the ones that know the truth.
99.99% of all American Jews are still in a propaganda bubble of mythology. I assume you are not in the US. When the US State Department decides on what is ‘true’ (which in this case is ‘evil Serbs were tormenting jihadists’), the truth cannot get out.
The SD controls the media and controls academia. Francisco Gil White, Jared Israel, Julia Gorin, etc. with their low-budget, no advertising websites, are labeled as ‘kooks’ and ‘conspiracy’ freaks. The power of the SD to control US media is probably stronger than that of any empire in history.
Study the media closely and you’ll see that the same types of people are labeled as ‘ultranationalists’ in both countries. The US population knows a lot more about Israel, and thus has stronger pro-Israel feelings than it does towards Serbia (who the US population knows little about). But this does not prevent the US State Dept from copious usage of Big Lies to attack Israel and Jews that defend Israel (who are few and far between).
102 Comment by PcH on 26 July 2008:
Elizabeth/Slim/Kumbaya (one person) -
But YOU are a neocon/lib. Every word you put down is straight from the Red propaganda book. You even obsess over the “fascists” over and over again as if this were 1927!
In other words, YOU invaded Serbia. YOU are behind the genocide of America and Europe. YOU are behind the imperialist wars all over the globe.
Keep talking, so the world can see who you are. Your comments will be visible online for the next 30 years.
103 Comment by james on 26 July 2008:
How come my last to reply comments to Elizibeth and Slim were never posted.
104 Comment by Trifkovic on 26 July 2008:
I’v been to Israel many times, have friends there, and respect their tenacity. That country proves that connectedness to the land of one’s forefathers is an essential ingredient of meaningful, proud and creative nationhood.
One only wishes that the unspeakable, self-hating neurotics a la Abe Foxman — who claim to represent the Diaspora community — will grasp that its continued survival (let alone prosperity) is entirely predicated upon the survival of the vestiges of Christendom in the civilized world. Blacks, Latinos, Orientals et al are utterly immune to the Shoah narrative, indifferent at best, and — among the 1bn+ adhrents of the Cult of the Black Meteor — gleefully appreciative of the perpetrators…
105 Comment by james on 26 July 2008:
@100Trifkovic
Why did Kosovo Prime Minister Hashim Thaci visit Israel to meet then PM Arial Sharon.
Abe Foxmans ADL has links to Mossad and effectively acts as a gestapo in the US collecting information on hundreds of indivisuals and organisations. The spotlight newspaper exposed this.
How can Israeli firsters like Richard Pearle support Bosnian, Kosovar and Chechen nationalism and independence the most extreme of them all but have a totally opposite view towards Palestinians. Thats hypocrisy!
106 Comment by slim on 26 July 2008:
Don’t forget that Arafat also met with Israeli leaders, who are mostly just subordinates to the US. Not unlike the fact that there are probably new Serb leaders that must ‘bow’ to the outside empires, lest they face even more sanctions and demonization.
Pearle is not an ‘Israel firster’. His loyalty is to the antisemitic US State Department.
If the propaganda about these ‘neocons’ and AIPAC was true, then Israel would be the most secure fortress in the world. The reality is that the US just toppled a secondary enemy of Israel, and greatly strengthened a primary enemy (Iran).
Israel never pushed the US to go to war with Iraq. I’ve sifted through lexis nexis on this. Israel’s only recommendation was that if the US was insistent on attacking someone, it should be Iran.
Note that the ‘neocons’ did not act on this. They strengthened Iran, welcomed Ahmadinejad to Columbia University in the US, and gave him prime op-ed space in Newsweek magazine. This is not how the US treats enemies (eg. I don’t recall Milosevic getting any op-ed space in US msm). Jared Israel and FGW (no working relationship) are exactly right on this: the US is NOT enemies with Iran. The US only pretends to be enemies with Iran.
Ahmadinejad, a holocaust denying Jewhater, has been positioned as a figure of respect among the far left.
Similarly, the US does not fight terrorism, it ships out jihadist textbooks and spreads terrorism. Israel fights terrorism for real. Israel is not in bed with the Arabs the way the US is.
The entire US relationship with Israel is built upon big lies. It is correct that Foxman is mostly worthless–too gutless to take on the true enemies of Jews, he instead goes after the Christians that do support Israel.
107 Comment by james on 26 July 2008:
@102slim
Do you oppose islamist linked independence movements or do you share the same view as Richard Pearle, Pipes, Wolfowitz, etc.
In fact of yur a British Jew do you approve Boris Berezovsky organized crime boss, chechen terror financier political asylum even though he publicly stated hes planned to violently overthrough Putin.
108 Comment by Kumbaya on 26 July 2008:
PcH,
Your view is much too simplistic.
It is true that the empire has engineered a genocide of Serbs in the 1990s.
At least one million Serbs have been ethnically cleansed from their ancestral homelands in Kosovo, Bosnia and the Krajina and Slavonia regions of Croatia.
it is actually quite a testament to the power of the modern mass media as a mind control tool that they have managed to convince the Western world that the actual victim of genocide has in fact been the perpetrator.
We live in interesting times indeed.
It is also true that the Serbs are their own worst enemies.
When the US-led West embarked on their carefully planned and impeccably timed–coinciding exactly with the Soviet Union’s collapse–dismemberment of the quite functional state of Yugoslavia, the Serbs outside Serbia proper where in a good position to retain control over their ancestral homelands.
(It should be noted here that there is no question to the historical legitimacy of Serbia’s claim to Kosovo, Krajina, Slavonia and Bosnia. The administrative borders delineating the Yugoslav republic after WW2 where artificail constructs of the faux-communist Josip Broz Tito.)
Unfortunately, when push came to shove, The leadership of Serbia in the 1990s–namely Milosevic–refused to fight for the Serbs west of the Drina. That was the fateful mistake.
It was a gambit on the part of the West that Serbia would not join the fight when the US and German sponsored, trained and equipped Croats launched their 1995 blitz on the Serb territories of Krajina, Slavonia and Bosnia.
Milosevic brought his army to the Croatian border and stopped. It was a silly bluff and the West called it. Had Milosevic joined the fight, the Croats could easily have been crushed and the West’s nose suitably bloodied.
That is the only way to deal with a bully–a swift punch in nose. Unfortunately Milosevic did just the opposite. Once you start retreating it is never enough.
Hence just four years after Serbia’s capitulation to Western-sponsored aggression in Krajina and Slavonia, the same bully decided to steal Kosovo. (Some Western fanatics, buyoed by this seeming success then started making noises about Vojvodina.)
Again Milosevic capitulated on Kosovo, without actually letting the fighting men do what they are on this earth to do.
Quite foolishly he felt secure that he had extracted a UN Security Council Resolution (1244) that explicitly guaranteed Serbia’s territorial integrity. He should have first consulted with the North American Indians, the East Indians, the Israelis and others who would have told him how much the Angle Imperialist’s paper is worth.
So that is two capitulations that resulted in the loss of considerable Serbian territory. For those familiar with Serb history of fighting fto the last man or every inch of the fatherland, this was indeed very disappointing.
What happened next is even more disappointing. Voices of dissatisfaction began yelping for Milosevic’s head. Many so-called intellectuals who should know better began spouting nonsense about some kind of West-leaning “democracy” and common destiny in Europe.
At the same time, the Western Imperialists rolled in their incredibly efficient fifth-column machine, if you can call it that.
Operating through government funded NGO’s Like the National Endowment for Democracy and elite-funded organizations like the ironically misnamed “Civil Society”–and cultivating a network of local traitors like Otpor and other such pond scum, they managed to ignite civili unrest that resulted in basically a coup that ousted Milosevic.
Through elections that were highly suspect, they managed to install Imperial puppets like Djindjic and Tadic and the rest of the so-called “democratic” party (and their fellow travelers the openly traitorous G17).
So the conquest of Serbia was complete. The next step was to detach Kosovo and make it legitimate. It is interesting to note that the imperious overlords in Washington and Europe actually believed that they could install a puppet regime in Belgrade that would recognize the artificial state of Kosovo. It may still happen–and faster than we think.
It is instructive to recall here a little part of Serb folklore about unity saving the Serbs. Unfortunately the Serbs did not hang together when the going got tough. They still don’t.
It is also beyond belief that any Serb can seriously believe that joining the European Union is a good thing.
Instead of standing up proud and dignified against those who have stolen their land–and continue to work on grabbing even more–the Serbs somehow believe that there can be a constructive relationship, even friedship with the same Huns that have been hunting for their scalps for the last 17 years. This is absurd.
If Serbs think this way, then they deserve everything they get–the demonization and living with the name “Nazis” of the Balkans, the erasing of Serb culture and history from Kosovo and Metohija, and every other plague and pestilence that is heaped upon their sorry heads.
The Serbs have only themselves to blame.
It is worth pointing out, however, that a lot of confusion in the minds of the Serbian people is due to the influx of foregn propaganda–by way of foreign ownership of the media.
It is instructive to note that the first thing the Imperialist West did after the capitulation of Serbia in 2000 was to buy up the country’s communication and media capacity.
Thus the mind control that has heretofore made the West’s proleterariat little more than celebrity-obsessing zombies, is now starting to work its electronic magic on the Serb people as well.
It is also quite sad to see people trying to find bogeymen to blame, like Muslims or Jews.
This is a very pathetic sport that has little to do with reality. The muslims are not the reason for the sorry state of the Serb nation at this point. The aggression came not from the muslims but from the West that trained and sponsored them and set them in motion like little tin soldiers–all the while keeping the big club close at hand with which to bop either party upside the head if they somehow don’t follow the script.
And now we want to grovel at the feet of that same West?
It is even more pathetic that some people think that Serbs can get in the good graces of the Western Imperialists by bashing the muslims.
Sure the Western Imperialists have inflamed the common people with an orgy of race hate against the muslims. That is nothing new, the Anglo culture has cherished its racism for generations.
But one question? Why would the Serbs even want to get in the good graces of the Imperialists? Would it not make more sense to oppose them and their racism in principle? (It would make more sense to actively fight them, but it seems Serbs don’t believe in fighting anymnore.)
So you see, my friend, it is easy to talk about nonsensical things like Necons, Jews and Muslims–all of them bogeymen of one sort or another created merely to keep the common folk focused away from the reality of what is truly going on.
These delineations between the above groups do not exist. These are artificail constructs whose only purpose is mind control.
The only real delineation and the one we should worry about is the line between the greedy ruling elites of a global empire and the rest of world on whose blood it is gorging itself.
If and when you come across stories about how the Indians of South America are being driven off what little land they have left by death squads operated by Imperialist puppets like Colombia’s Jose Uribe (you won’t see these stories in your mind-control newspaper or tv channel), you can see that line pretty clearly.
If you hear about poor folks in Africa dying of aids, while the Imperialist pharma giants refuse to give medicine (without the destitute Africans paying full retaill for it), you can see that line pretty clearly.
When you come across a story that the US congress has just taken Nelson Mandela off its list of terrorists (just in time for his 90′th birthday this year), you can see that line pretty clearly.
I think you will find kfocusing on the real line a much better use of your time and energy than on the lines they want you to look at.
109 Comment by slim on 26 July 2008:
James– you asked:
“Do you oppose islamist linked independence movements or do you share the same view as Richard Pearle, Pipes, Wolfowitz, etc.”
I am very much against all ethnically clean, WWII nazi inspired states (be they ustashe, Islamist, etc.). I post on another forum and I’m attacked as a conspiracy kook for telling the truth regarding Western imperialism in the Balkans. Trust me you have no idea how ridiculed you are in the US if you deviate from the State Department issued ‘truth’.
The problem in the US is that for 40 years or so, ALL US policy towards Israel, no matter how many Jews it kills, is labeled as ‘pro Israel policy’ in the media. Shrink Israel’s borders? that’s pro Israel policy. Coerce Israel to get rid of security measures that ‘humiliated’ the Islamists? that’s pro Israel policy. Utilize the media to coerce Israel to stand off and NOT defeat hezbolla? that’s pro Israel policy. Catch my drift? Goebbels’ big lie technique that has brainwashed AIPAC and almost all Jews into thinking that ‘peace’ will not be achieved until al fatah, a piece of Husseini inspired genocidal filth, gets a ’state’ on land deemed crucial for Israel’s survival. This is pro Israel policy! This is the same as if you had been told for 40 years that the creation of an Islamist terrorist state in Kosovo is pro Serbian policy.
The funniest part is when the US, who has engaged in infrastructure bombing of Iraq for 10 years (under both Clinton and Bush), killing probably a million civilians, attacks Israel’s impotent attempts at self defense as ‘disproportionate’. Israel sends in ground troops to die (Jenin), uses targeted rocket attacks, and is labeled by the 4th reich (US) as ‘disproportionate’.
Kumbaya is right in that 99.9% of Americans, including Jews, are entirely clueless on the precarious state of Israel (close to war with Iran) and have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about Western pro-Nazi policy in the Balkans.
Kumbaya–I agree with pretty much all you just said, and like Serbs, Jews are their own worst enemy. For a Jew, there is nothing worse than being called a ‘rightwinger’ or ‘conservative’, thus the MSM labels all Jews that resist naziism as ‘rightwingers’. Example: http://www.answers.com/rudolf%20kastner
Malchiel Gruenwald fought back against the nazi collaborator Rudolf Kastner. Note how Gruenwald is called a ‘rightwinger’. In Western media (which I still call fascist media), those that resist fascism are called rightwingers or ‘ultranationalists’ (this is used on Serbs all the time).
Here I disagree with you:
“Sure the Western Imperialists have inflamed the common people with an orgy of race hate against the muslims. That is nothing new, the Anglo culture has cherished its racism for generations.”
Remember, the biggest ‘oppressors of Islam’ are Jews and Serbs–and they are not being attacked by Jews, Serbs, or anyone else. ‘Islamophobia’ is the biggest crock of BS invention I’ve ever seen. The biggest joke is that Western media puts out weekly press releases (from the CIA) saying ‘look! we just waterboarded more Islamists!’. I called BS on this long ago. This is pure 100% sympathy propaganda BS.
I joke on the other forum: why don’t we ever get to hear about the waterboarded Serbs? Why don’t we ever hear about the waterboarded dual-loyalty Jews?? Why? because the US is not out to garner sympathy for you or for me. They are selling some nonexistent ‘islamophobia’ to know-nothing college kids. The result? Certain liberal college campuses have quite a bit of open and accepted Jewhate. On the streets of Europe, Jews get pummelled ever couple weeks or so. Jewhate (even in US academia) has not been this trendy in a long time. It’s typically manifested by people saying ‘I love Jews, I just hate Israel, and I just happen to support Husseini and his movement…’. That’s nothing but Jewhate, and Serbhate too (I’m aware that he killed probably more Serbs than Jews).
The US is deliberately spreading terrorism, and inciting global Jewhate–but in the US (maybe not true for parts of Europe) there have been no significant attacks against Muslims. Americans are too obsessed with Paris Hilton to get that worked up over anything.
110 Comment by Elizabeth on 27 July 2008:
Kumbaya
I absolutely agree with 99% of your post. Well put.
The Serbs are their own worst enemies and to watch some of them now, fawning to the EU and the Empire sickens and even embarrasses me. I can’t forget the some 500 or so children who died in Belgrade Children hospital because of western sanctions.
I can’t forgive or forget what was done to them as a nation by my own. Where we disagree is over the power and actions of the neoconservatives and may I add, by those utterly depraved, moral, political and even fiscal, fellow travellers, the collective categorized as neo/liberalists.
Trikovic
‘I’v been to Israel many times, have friends there, and respect their tenacity. That country proves that connectedness to the land of one’s forefathers is an essential ingredient of meaningful, proud and creative nationhood. ‘
Will you allow me to answer this because I do have a problem.
I hope I have made clear that I am not anti-Jewish. I, too, have jewish friends and most would agree with what I am going to write.
Firstly, Israel. They too suffer from the ‘Serb’ affliction. They, too, have become their own worst enemy. Paul Craig Roberts wrote it all for me. I think their treatment of the Palestinians has now reached a level that can only be described as barbaric verging on genocidal and it is doing the Israelis enormous harm in the eyes of folk like me who once staunchly supported their state.
I think it is questionable, too, to call Israel the state of their ‘forefathers’. Unlike Serbia, all the most recent of DNA research, unfortunately for the Israelis, negates this. The majority of Israelis are not of middle eastern extraction but are of European, russian and from countries in between and even central Asia.
Dna shows conclusively that the Palestinians belong where they are.
However that is an argument against your!! statement. How much dna can count these days in the ownership of lands and states I cannot say. Multiculturalism is destroying national and social cohesion and leading us heavens knows where. Sadly I think Yugoslavia is a disaster ready to happen again – not least in Europe as Islam makes more more strident claims against people such as myself. Who owns what? where? and why?
Above I made a blanket statement – the Jewish people are their own worst enemy. Please give me the latitude to expand on that, if you will, because again I am someone who tries to be fair and moderate but is increasingly irritated by what is perceived to be Jewish actions – knowing that huge numbers of Jews are as repelled as I am. They can no more all be put into one collective group than any other cultural or religious population.
The idea that people can be locked away and imprisoned for the thought crime of questioning the ‘holocaust’ is an abomination. It does the Jewish people collectively no good at all. The treatment of Ernst Zundel, David Irving and a long list of others is a blot on our basic freedoms and liberties.
They tried to impose it in England – no thanks – and are trying in the USA. It won’t get the time of day from your average American. The Germans and Austrians and other Europeans should do away with it. You must be able to research history and truth and fact.
It gives jewry, collectively, a bad name even with those who would be their friends.
The ‘holocaust’ in general. It is time to let go. This annual pilgrimage to selected ‘concentration’ camps – most post war constructs – has played itself out and become counterproductive. I say selective – I find myself yelling at the TV ‘where is Jasenovic’?. Like animal farm some concentration camp victims are more memorable than others.
It is certainly time to stop the financial blackmail of the Germans and other nations for ‘reparations’. The jews have received a lot of money which other ‘victims’ of WW2 never got. The Germans have paid any dues – dues they never paid to my family for all their losses both human and financial and were never expected to.
At the last ‘holocaust’ memorial fest Vladimir Putin put it in perspective very well. 30,000,000 or more russians died in WW2. 30,000,000. And what is more the Russians turned the tide against Germany and we should be grateful. Who remembers them?
I, as a person, have more reason to thank those 30,000,000 and honour their sacrifice than to the jews who died in the camps. Many Russians died in circumstances equal if not even more horrific than many jews.
Some 70 or more million, 70,000,000 died collectively in WW2 including my sweet dear great aunt Rose who never did a bad thing to anyone in her life.
I know I am far from alone in getting increasingly peeved that only one small percentage of that 70,000,000 is being remembered, endlessly. Lets remember all or none. I am getting extremely indignant at watching politicians worshipping at the flame of the holocaust in Israel yet ready to forget my dear great aunt and the millions more like her, just as dead.
They have played the ‘holocaust ‘ out. It is beginning to have a backlash which many jews themselves understand, write about and warn.
And Germany – a new book has just come out in America. HF does have a gripe. After the war some – I think 3,000,000 Germans died as a result of starvation and cold – blockaded by the allies. A nasty guilty little secret that, at last, is seeing the light of day. Germany was unnecessarily bombed and their national infrastructure destroyed. Most of those germans were as innocent of war crimes and anything else as the Krajina Serbs, or Serbian Kosovars. They were collectively killed – one way or another by my side!! It is an abomination and it is the grandchildren of these dead Germans who are once again being called upon for yet more ‘danegeld’.
Intolerable to me, at least.
Having said that and respecting German suffering I think the German action against the Serbs over the past 10-20 years has been an utter disgrace, vile and vindictive. I cannot excuse or ignore what looks to me and many others, sheer collective vengeful punishment including the territorial destruction of Serbia itself, for the Serbs part in resisting the Germans in WW2. Other nations are involved as well – but that is how I view the German ‘angle’.
That the German airforce would fly its first military operation since WW2 partaking in the bombing and destruction of Belgrade on the exact anniversary of the original historial bombing raid by Adolf Hitler that killed tens of thousands of Serbs is sick beyond imagination. HF – thats where you and I part company.
One last point, I still maintain my disgust that when the Serbs were under attack for defending themselves against islamic occupation, murder and mayhem the Israelis offered no support or succour. Instead, and this cannot be denied, it was the jewish dominated neocon movement and the equally dominated US state department calling the shots and for the destruction of Serbia.
I guess this puts me piggy in the middle of this thread but its my honest ”two pennorth’ as we English say. Fall upon me from both sides if you will.
111 Comment by Kumbaya on 27 July 2008:
Elizabeth,
You have made some very good points. Your historical reading of events under discussion is quite accurate. Well done.
Slim too has made the very interesting point that Jew hate is rearing its ugly head once again.
Both of you are in agreement however that the dark villain standing behind all of these events is the evil of Western Imperialism.
Is there a way to make sense of this paradox?
Here is my opinion. As far as the Jews and Israel is concerned, Slim’s argument does have a core of truth.
Namely that the policy of the “pro-Israel” US empire is actually creating very big long-term problems for Israel specifically and Jews generally.
Like I mentioned before, Israel may have started as the “Jewish State” but it has long ago morphed into a puppet of Imperial force in the Middle East.
By allowing their nation to be commandeered as a vehicle for Imperialst designs in the region is a big mistake for the Jews.
Again the role of mass media mind control is important here. The Jews do not actually realize that they are being used by the Imperialists–who are quite anti-semitic at core.
There is no question that the Imperialists are running the show in Israel, not the other way around. The idea that Israel is calling the shots in US politics is absurd. It is an inversion of the truth along the same lines as the Serbs being the perpetrators of Balkan genocide.
How can this be so?
One must not be fooled by outward appearances. It is instructive to look at history to glean insights.
In the Great War (WW1) the American public was inflamed into a froth of anti-”Hun” racism.
Yet behind the scenes, the elites of Germany and America were partying together aboard their splending ocean liners.
The Junkers aristocrats and the US robber barons were the ones benefitting from this war.
You see, these cyclic calamities like wars and economic depressions are absolutely necessary in order for the ruling elites to preserve the status quo.
Nothing remains static for very long. If you don’t mow your lawn for a year you will not be able to see your house.
Same thing in the affiars of man. If the elites don’t overturn the soil now and then, nature’s tendency to entropy will sweep them aside quite quickly.
It can also be seen that the Imperial elites are not monolithic–there are factions that are in rivalry constantly.
Over the course of the 20′th century the world saw the ascent of US-led dominance. WW1 saw the demise of the old-guard empires like the Ottoman Turks and the Germanic empires of Austria and Prussia.
After WW2, the shift was complete as the British empire effectively disintegrated and the US took over its remains.
The postwar era is one of very efficient colonialism, where the US-led empire has basically taken over all of the economic explitation practiced by the old-guard empires.
The funny thing is that the rise of mass media mind control has made it possible to mask the nature and intentions of this global expolitation.
The economic regime established at the close of WW2, with the agreement at Bretton Woods, NH, between the US and Britain, which saw the founding of the IMF, World Bank and later the GATT (now the WTO), operates with incredible efficiency–but the net result is the same, complete imperial exploitation of the world’s masses.
This includes the domestic masses lving in the Imperial countries of US and Europe.
So now we can see what is really going on. We have a global empire that sustains itself by stealing from the rest of the world. This is given benign sounding names like “free trade” or globalization, but the net result is the same as prior colonial enterprises of grabbing the wealth of subservient nations at gunpoint.
So colonialism never went away. The only difference is the mechanism. Instead of directlly ruling the subservient countries, which is most of the world–the new tactic is much more effective, to install puppet regimes that willingly bleed their countries dry, in exchange for personal power and wealth of a corrupt ruling class.
This has been the case for decades in most of the so-called third world, Africa, South America, Asia etc.
The goal of course is to bring every single country into line because the “cancer” of disobedience could easily spread.
That is why countires like Cuba and Venezuela are a huge thorn in the Empire’s side. That is also why Yugoslavia was destroyed–because it wanted to remain independent and not recolonized.
Now let us look at the role of Jews and Israel in this postwar imperial enterprise.
Opinins have been expressed here that there is a Jewish conspiracy that rules the world. This is old hat stuff. I have a Muslim friend from Sarajevo who has a library full of books on this kind of stuff.
There is in fact a kernel of truth to this notion, namely that there is a very small core of individuals who hold vast power in their hands. The structures of this empire are composed of individual pyramids–industry, finance, academia, media–and atop each pyramid are one or two individuals who callthe shots.
These are the ruling elites. That there is a disproportionate number of Jews among them is quite true. But like I said earlier, these are Jews in name only.
A good parallel is to the position of Greeks within the Roman empire. The Greeks were skilled administrators and Greek individuals actually ran much of the Roman empire, especially the later Byzantine outgrowth of the empire.
However these were individuals. The great mass of Greek people were powerless and did not even have citizenship in the empire.
This is how it is today. The Jewish people are being led around like everyone else. The belligerence of the Israeli government vis a vis the Arabs is hugely conterproductive. But it is coming squarely from the Imperial overlords.
The idea that tail wags the dog is quite laughable.
Commentators like Roberts who belive this also advocate the US getting out of the empire business.
The only problem with that is that the Western economy would implode. It would be a disintegration of this society as we know it.
The reason is that it is the profits from the global colonialist enterprise are what keeps the whole system afloat.
Of course, it cannot stay afloat forever. Sooner or later it has to sink. The problem with basing one’s economic existence on stealing from others is that sooner or later there is no one left to steal from.
The empire is devouring its future.
I am reminded of the Masai herdsmen who sustain themselves by opening a little slit in the skin of their cows and taking a little blood for nourishment.
This gluttonous empire is incapable of such restraint. They slice through the artery and gorge themselves on the gusher. Pretty soon there will be no cattle left.
112 Comment by slim on 27 July 2008:
Elizabeth,
Overall, Jews have no control over who is or is not ‘remembered’ from the holocaust. US policy is to ignore the Serbs that were killed.
The US holocaust museum is a creation of the State Department and has been strategically used to ‘rehabilitate’ genocial monsters like Tudjman (who was invited to the inauguration when Milosevic was not).
I’ve been to it, and it’s a great museum, but Jews do not run it. Like most US-Israel relations, I call it ‘perfect propaganda’. It’s clear that such museums convince Jews that ‘we have no friend like the US!’ and it also drives a wedge between Jews and the rest that perished.
And much like WWII, NO mainstream Jewish leaders will ever raise any awareness for the Serbs, Roma, etc. The mainstream leaders are lackeys of the antisemitic elites. This is a historical consistency that has never changed.
Israel is committing genocide against the palestinians much like Serbs were doing likewise against Muslims–that is to say, not at all. Very few historians discuss pre and post 1967 treatment of palestinians. Efraim Karsh does.
Pre 1967, Egypt and Jordan treated them horribly and kept them in squalor. Post 1967, Israel brought them vaccinations, medicine, universities. The Zionist nature is to *raise* the condition of the working class. Arabs flocked to the region to partake of the zionist economy. How can there be genocide when their population has only grown?
It is all the UN and US fascsits can do to continue to demonize Israel, thus the fund the UNRWA, arm, train, and fund al fatah, and pressure Israel to not defeat her enemies.
Jared Israel has written that the Muslims of Kosovo were the most coddled minority in Europe. This is much like Israeli treatment of palestinians–Israel governs very benignly. Go to youtube or memritv and look at ‘hamas tv’. If Israel is so mean to them, why would Israel let them put Jewhate all over their tv shows?
Israel actually governs suicidally by letting them do all this. You’ve bit onto the exact same propaganda BS that is used against Serbs. It’s also a lie when used against Jews.
Remember, these palestinian enemies are the continuation of Husseini and Eichmann’s final solution. Surely you don’t support their movement when it entailed killing Serbs, don’t support it now either. Everything you think you know about the palestinian movement is a crock of BS. Read FGW or Jared Israel’s articles.
No one lies as much as jihadists, and those allied with them (the US government).
The US has been supporting Axis allied ‘captive nation’ fascists all over the place for 60 years, epitomized by DioGuardi and the Albanians, as well as the palestinians. These are mostly all fascist movements that the average American would find repulsive, thus they need to be dressed up in copious propaganda about ’suppressed nationalism’ and similar BS.
Kumbaya,
Regarding Jewish power at the top of the media, FGW wrote some good articles on it:
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/mprot1.htm
At least in the US, the media is NOT controlled by Jews, and like you said, the ‘Jews’ that get into that upper clique are not ‘pro Israel’ nor ‘observant’ in any way shape or form. Much Jewish conspiracy focuses on the Rothschilds, who at this point in time are basically irrelevant and not Jewish at all.
Look at Amazon and examine the works of John Loftus, Christopher Simpson, Edwin (Edward?) Black. The reality is that there is a lot more ‘anti Jewish’ conspiracy, and it’s done by the people (eg. Ford Foundation) that DO have all the power. The US elites that introduced eugenics to the Germans were tremendous antisemites. They are the ones that make US policy.
113 Comment by Kumbaya on 27 July 2008:
Slim,
FGW’s piece illustrates perfectly the “divide and conquer” tactics of the ruling elites.
The Jewish bogeyman was invented by the Czarist elites simply to distract the attention of the increasingly restless proleteriat from the real problem–their inhuman exploitation by the ruling class.
The same strategy was used by the US ruling elites with negro racism. They convinced the poor rabble that the black man was root of their problems, simply to distract the people’s attention from the real problem–their abuse by the ruling elites.
The same story continues today. Various groups are blamed simply in order to distract the people’s attention from the real issues–the communists, Jews, now Islamsts, etc. There will continue to be an endless stream of bogeymen manufactured.
It is also true that the US introudced eugenics to the Germans. Hitler and others marveled admiringly at the eugenics work carried out by the Rockefeller “philanthropy” in the US.
The people who ran the Rockefeller eugenics program, which consisted of mass sterilization of poor black folks in the US South, Africa and the Carribean, in their turn, greatly admired their Nazi friends.
It is also true that the Palestinian movement has fascist roots. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a notorious Nazi.
However, the current Israeli treatment of Palestinians cannot be considered fair by any means. The building of illegal settlements and the continued occupation are the real sources of the friction.
Some Jews may believe that they need the West Bank and Gaza–or at least swatches thereof–for their security, and that may indeed be true.
However, that does not legitimize the continued occupation, the settlements, the barrier, or the maltreatment of Palestinian public.
I belive commentators like Jared and FGW are well-intentioned and they see a real peril to the Jewish people looming ahead. This could in fact be true.
But my reading of the situation is that the Israelis have allowed the almighty US to convince them to take an unyielding–and self-destructive–stand.
As I mentioned previously, the birth of the Jewish State was difficult and marked by British-sponsored Arab aggresion. If it were not for Stalin’s support, the Jewish State could well have been stillborn.
But the Jews did win that war–and some, inlcuding Israeli scholars like Benny Morris will say that Israel then went too far in seizing the advantage, namely systematically clearing out Palestinian residents.
Since then Israel has become stronger and stronger and has continued to take bad counsel from the US empire.
It is quite stupid for the Jews to be waging a war against Islam on behalf of the US. They are the ones who are putting everything at risk, not the US.
The US talks about supporting Israel, but how much are their promises worth? Ask the Indians. When the time comes–and it will–the US will turn its back on Israel, just as the devil turns his back on those he has used and discarded.
The current situation with Iran is a perfect example. It is the US that is using Israel as its attack dog, not the other way around.
Again, here we see the same underlying dynamic at work. Iran is a “rogue” state because it resists submitting to imperial will. Just like Saddam’s Iraq, Milosevic’s Yugoslavia, Kim’s Korea, Castro’s Cuba, chavez’s Venezuela, etc.
Now that the US ruling elites have been somewhat thwarted in their march to war with Iran–the NIE report, rising antiwar public opinion, etc–it is not surprising that the threats are now coming from Israel.
In fact they are coming from the same people who really call the shots. Isreal is in every way a vassal state that is being used by the US empire.
That is the nature of this empire. It’s workings are quite opaque. Everything we see publicly must be questioned and examined closely.
114 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 27 July 2008:
Elizabeth 106:
“That the German airforce would fly its first military operation since WW2 partaking in the bombing and destruction of Belgrade on the exact anniversary of the original historial bombing raid by Adolf Hitler that killed tens of thousands of Serbs is sick beyond imagination. HF – thats where you and I part company.”
Elizabeth: I only know about the modern Serbs what I read here, therefore I have no independent opinion on this issue.
In other forums I have stated, and I will repeat it here, that modern day Germany is a judicial and political cesspool. I also stated that Germany is still an occupied country with very little independent foreign policy.
Nonetheless Germany is the whipping boy for intellectually challenged individuals spouting their group-think.
Kumbaya: You make some strong statements; unfortunately the snippets of facts that one may glean from “reading between the lines” of the MSM, and the public stance for AIPAC and others, makes it hard to go along with your thinking.
Do you have any verifiable facts or documents to support your opinions? I would be interested in knowing more.
H.F. Wolff
115 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 27 July 2008:
Justification and right to exist of Jewish state comes into forefront almost every time Trifkovic writes about Serbia, Serbian lands and Serbian misery. To compare what Serbs have suffered through in their history with Jewish people is wrong for two reasons, at least:
1) It degrades the extent of annihilation of Serbian population and lands, especially in the light of the fact that almost none of the wartime- or holocaust museums instituted by
2) Jewish groups in North America and elsewhere do not want to include the information on eradication of Serbian people in Croatia (by Croats), Bosnia (By Muslims and Croats) and Kosovo-Metohija (by Albanians) even if Serbs request the inclusion.
It is primarily the Serbian government’s fault that these shameful omissions occur, yet it hurts to see Trifkovic defend Jewish state each time he should stay focused on pondering the enemy of Serbian people.
116 Comment by david montoute on 27 July 2008:
Boba,
i agree entirely. The entire Slav-Jewish alliance idea is a distraction, one that feeds on anti-islamic paranoia and stays within the dark confines of nationalism. There is no place for pro-israeli rhetoric for anyone opposing western intervention in the Balkans. Deluded apologists for Zionist terror choose to ignore the words (and deeds) of Israel’s founders:
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
– David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
So even though Ben Gurion set out his policy plainly, Slim chooses to believe the ridiculous fiction that Palestinians ‘chose’ to leave their homeland. The series of civilian massacres that left 3,000 Palestinians dead had nothing to do with this, no? No, Slim. they did not “flee the fighting” – they fled zionist terror groups that roamed the land unopposed. The massive flight of Palestinians took place before the Arab armies even set foot in the Holy Land.
I also find it incredible that Slim and Jared Israel (who he apparently derives inspiration from) see nazis under every stone. Everybody, apparently, is part of a devilish plot to wipe out Israel – even the US which provides 6 billion dollars a year to the Jewish State, allowed it to carry out a false flag attack on it’s own military (USS Liberty) single-handedly reversed arab gains in the Yom Kippur war, protected Israel at the UN with countless vetoes, and attacked and destroyed Israel’s enemies.
Furthermore, if it is anti-semitism that concerns Slim so much, then how about this quote, from 1938:
“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.” – David Ben-Gurion
So yeah, let’s sacrifice whoever we have to sacrifice, right? After all, the glory of the abstract State of Israel is more important than children’s lives.
Yes, Slim, your observations on Iran are quite correct – it IS in bed with the United States. And it is also in bed with Israel. Just as the US created and then exploited Political Islam, Israel did the same in it’s own country. It heavily financed the people that formed Hamas in the 1980s. This was intended to weaken Palestinian nationalism as represented by fatah. The jewish State also sent armms to Iran right through the 1980s, during the reign of the Ayatollah Khomeini. Neither has this ended. An Israeli arms shipment destined for Iran was seized as recently as 2002.
So, this scare-mongering about the “anti-semitic” Ahmadinejad rings a bit hollow. [Incidentally, Iran has the biggest Jewish population in the Middle East outside of Israel] The reason for this unholy alliance, of course, is “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”. Both regimes see the primary threat as secular Arab nationalism. This is why upon coming to power, Khomeini’s regime declared it’s intention to bring down the Ba’ath government in Iraq, and went on to stage some 244 cross-border attacks in Iraq. All the while (and since) they fired not a single shot in Israel’s direction.
And if ahmadinejad is as anti-semitic as you say, then why were there so many Jews present at his tendentious Holocaust conference in Tehran?
117 Comment by james on 27 July 2008:
@111Boba Borojevic
No one ever mentions “Operation Blue” Hitlers operation o bring muslim fighters from Russia Ingush and Chechens and from the Middle East into the Balkans trained by Nazi divisions to invade Russias south and capture the Caspain oil reserve base (sound familiar) rumoured to be partialy financied by the Rothschilds who wanted access to the Caspain oil reserves before WW1.
The exact same thing is happening now beginning in 1989 when major financial backers started sending money to Bosnia, see the Golden Chain document.
Mr Brezinski goes one step further he planned militants to take over the whole of Central Asia as well http://www.wanttoknow.info/brzezinskigrandchessboard.
118 Comment by Elizabeth on 27 July 2008:
James
‘Mr Brezinski goes one step further he planned militants to take over the whole of Central Asia as well http://www.wanttoknow.info/brzezinskigrandchessboard.
The very same Mr Brezinski who runs Barak Obama.
Be scared, be very very scared!
Can you believe that the USA could come up with two equally abhorrent candidates.
Once more the public were conned. We know by whom.
John Edwards v Ron paul would have been the best of the lot.
Dream on. The NWO rules supreme.
Few Americans will have the knowledge or wit to make a break from Tweedledee and Tweedledum and vote Ralph Nader.
I will comment on other posts tomorrow.
119 Comment by david montoute on 27 July 2008:
Slim,
I’ve been rereading some of your posts. Hamas TV, yes. Funded by the Israeli State.
You claim that Jews do not run the US media. Now, whilst my opinions on the structure of imperial power more or less coincide with Kumbaya’s, [i.e. the ideology of the powerful is Power, not Judaism] nevertheless, i cannot let this fabrication go by unchallenged:
“Today, seven Jewish Americans run the vast majority of US television networks, the printed press, the Hollywood movie industry, the book publishing industry, and the recording industry. Most of these industries are bundled into huge media conglomerates run by the following seven individuals:
Gerald Levin, CEO and Director of AOL Time Warner
Michael Eisner, Chairman and CEO of the Walt Disney Company
Edgar Bronfman, Sr., Chairman of Seagram Company Ltd
Edgar Bronfman, Jr, President and CEO of Seagram Company Ltd and head of Universal Studios
Sumner Redstone, Chairman and CEO of Viacom, Inc
Dennis Dammerman, Vice Chairman of General Electric
Peter Chernin, President and Co-COO of News Corporation Limited
Those seven Jewish men collectively control ABC, NBC, CBS, the Turner Broadcasting System, CNN, MTV, Universal Studios, MCA Records, Geffen Records, DGC Records, GRP Records, Rising Tide Records, Curb/Universal Records, and Interscope Records.
Most of the larger independent newspapers are owned by Jewish interests as well. An example is media mogul is Samuel I. “Si” Newhouse, who owns two dozen daily newspapers from Staten Island to Oregon, plus the Sunday supplement Parade; the Conde Nast collection of magazines, including Vogue, The New Yorker, Vanity Fair, Allure, GQ, and Self; the publishing firms of Random House, Knopf, Crown, and Ballantine, among other imprints; and cable franchises with over one million subscribers.”
I could add that Michael Eisner could depart Disney tomorrow but the company will remain in the hands of Shamrock Holdings, whose principal office is now located in Israel”.
Admittedly, this was extracted from a site that also promotes UFO abduction sci-fi scenarios, but i think you’ll find the information factually accurate.
120 Comment by james on 27 July 2008:
@114Elizabeth
John Edwards is a NWO stooge to. Hes a member of the CFR and co chaired a letter with Jack Kemp for the CFR declaring war on Russia because Putin wants to pass a law limiting the number of George Soros, Rothschild NGO’s trying to overthrough his government http://www.rusjournal.com/ngos.html.
Ron Pauls clean though hes a good man but WOW he has this crazy concept that the US should be a republic not an empire and fix the problems at home.
Maybe Kuchinich (dont know how to spell his name) vs Ron Paul would have been the best option.
121 Comment by Tomislav Milosevic on 27 July 2008:
Srdja Trifkovic often tries to remind us of what was pretty clearly wrong while it was developing.
Due attention had not been payed then and here are the consequences.
Due attention is not payed still and there will be additional consequences.
After this reminder, please continue digression from the subject.
Thank You all.
122 Comment by Elizabeth on 28 July 2008:
James you are absolutely right I forget the marvellous Dennis Kucinich.
Everyone go to ‘prison planet’ They are running the videos of the hearings for the impeachment of Bush etc.
There are some wonderful speeches which must restore a little faith in the future of the US. A lawyer Mr Bugliosi (hope thats right without referring back) – excellent.
I still think John Edwards the best of the rest – but how could I have overlooked Kucinich???? It was late and I was not at my sharpest.
I love the guy. He isn’t giving up. Good for him.
Paul/Kucinich would have been a dream ticket and I know it was being talked about by the dream on-ers.
123 Comment by PcH on 28 July 2008:
All the posts here by the radical Elizabeth/Slim/Kumbaya individual are invaluable for establishing that Israel, more than any country in the world, sought the war on Serbia. Until now, I never realized the essential role that Israel plays in the neocon/lib movement and in fomenting terror-wars around the world.
The really amazing thing is the total absence of guilt.
I guess there is a lot more bloodshed to come.
124 Comment by Kumbaya on 28 July 2008:
David Montoute has made some very good points, as have others.
Some have complained here that the whole “Jewish” issue does not belong in this discussion. I agree with this for the most part.
However, there are some aspects of the Jewish “question” if you will, that do belong in this discussion.
Foremost is the issue of holocaust revisionism. I am not talking here about about revisionism that seeks to downplay the victimization of Jews.
I am talking about revisionism that seeks to downplay the victimization of Serbs, who, in the wartime territory of Yugoslavia were rounded up side-by-side with Jews and exterminated side-by-side in Jasenovac and in countless local massacres.
Most Serbs who remember WW2 speak with great pain about the Jewish betrayal of their Serbian brothers.
Many have personal memories–like the man from Vojvodina who recounted for me watching as a boy of 10 his entire village, Serbs and Jews, thrown into the icy waters of the Danube by the occupying Hungarians. “Serb and Jew embraced each other in the icy water and they went down together like that,” he recalled, while Hungarian stormtroopers oversaw their demise.
Throughout Yugoslavia Serbs sheltered Jews, often at the cost of their own lives. Nazi policy was to exterminate an entire village that had given sanctuary to Jews. This was carried out many times, and still Serbs continued to hide them in their homes.
Jews from other parts of Europe fled to Serbia, because it was well known that they would be protected there. Among those Jewish refugees who found sanctuary in Serbia was none other than a young Madeleine Albright, whose father had been a Czech ambassador to Yugoslavia and who sheltered his family there as Nazis overran Europe.
The Jewish betrayals continued to come hard and fast throughout the Balkan crisis of the 1990s. Elie Wiesel, the famous Holocaust survivor, did as much harm as anyone to the cause of truth and justice when he came out in favor of the Kosovo Albanians and compared their train exodus to the Nazi deportation trains.
There can be no worse holocaust revisionism than that ugly piece of political theater right there. It is an insult to all real victims of the holocaust, Jew, Serb, Roma, Gay, Communist, etc.
Similarly, many Jews who should know better, spoke out against the Serbs during the Bosnian war and again compared the Serbs to the Nazis, while equating their one-time Bosnian muslim tormentors–whose WAffen SS Handjar division rounded up thousands of Jewish children, women and men and sent them to death camps–to themselves, the victims of genocide in WW2.
It has been mentioned here that Croats and Bosnian Muslims have been included as guests of honor in recent holocaust momorials, while Serbs excluded.
This inversion of truth and historical fact has been hugely damaging not only to the Serbian good name, but also to the truth and anyone who values such a thing. Which in today’s world, is hardly anyone, unfortunately.
It should be noted here that this Jewish betrayal of the Serbs has been met with commandable equanimity on the Serbian side. There is very little Serb grousing to be heard about this travesty from a one-time friend. Even less outright anti-semitism, which is really quite remarkable.
It must also be said however that it is the prominent Jews who are responsible for this betrayal. In other words, these are the Jews who are in the service of the US empire. Not only do they have no loyalty to the Serbs, but I doubt thay actually feel any loyalty to Jewry in general.
This is the ideology of Power, as David pointed out.
I have to disagree with David however about his reading of events in Palestine in the 1940s.
Yes the Jews did launch a terror campaign against the British overlords. But we must remember that the Jews had been promised a homeland more than 25 years prior by the League of Nations.
By 1946 it had become abundantly clear that the British had no intention of following the international community’s will and giving up a piece of Palestine to the Jews.
Can they be blamed for launching an uprising?
What happened in Palestine is exactly what continues to happen in the world today–colonialism.
A brief review of history. The Ottoman Turks held the Middle East untijl WW1. As early as 1915 the British, French and Italians began carving up the area among themselves–even before the war was won.
The British got Palestine and put in place an immigration quota for Jews that allowed only 1000 Jews to immigrate to their homeland each year.
During WW2, the British refused to let Jews fleeing Nazi extermination to go to Palestine. Instead they kept them in detention camps. There were 250,000 Jews in “displaced persons” camps at the end of the war.
British commonwealth countries like Canada also refused to take Jews fleeing from Hitler. Ships full of Jews that arrived in port were turned back.
All of this is historical fact that be readily accessed.
It is also a historical fact that within a couple of days of Israel declaration of independence, the surrounding ARab countries attacked. one thousand Lebanese, 5,000 Syrian, 5,00 Iraqi, and 10,000 Egyptian troops invaded Israel.
Four thousand Transjordan troops commanded by British officers–who had resigned their commissions, commanded by General Glubb–invaded the Jerusalem region.
We must view the explusion of Palestinians in this perspective. Many of them did flee the fighting, which is to say, that as the Arabs retreated, many cvillians fled too, fearing for their lives.
It is also true however, that once the Israelis turned the tide of the fight, they continued to expel Arabs, without any military justification.
Like I noted earlier, even Israeli historians agree on that.
It is important to be fair. In that respect it must be said that Israel managed to retain most of the land that was to be given to it under the UN plan.
But it also conquered and kept about half of the land that was to go to Arabs. Jordan and Egypt also annexed parts of Palestine. So everybody was grabbing what they could.
Now if we are to assign blame, where should most of it go?
In my mind, there is no doubt that Britian is the villain of the piece. They dragged their feet on giving the Jews their promised homeland. They instigated their Arab vassals to launch an invasion. They even turned their backs on innocent Jews fleeing Hitler.
Incredibly, this part of the history has gone down the memory black hole of the imperialist chroniclers.
It is also worth noting that credit for the existence of the Jewish state must overwhelmingly go to noen other than Josef Stalin. harry Truman did support the creation of the Jewish State, but the main driver was Stalin.
He was the one who broke the arms embargo and gave the Jews the guns they needed to turn back the British-Arab invasion.
It is also interesting to point out that two partition plans were put forth in the UN in 1947. One was for a single Palestinian state, the other for Jewish and Arab states side-by-side.
The majority of UN countries supported the two-state plan, but Yugoslavia, India, Iran and a few others voted for a federal state combining the Jewish and Arab communities.
It is also interesting that Israel’s early position was in the non-aligned camp, alongside Yugoslavia, India and others.
Most people now think that Israel was brought into being by mother America, but this is very far from the truth.
I thin the most important point to take away from this history is that the pattern of colonial manipulation is what has really caused all of the ensuing difficulty.
If the creation of Israel had proceeded according to the UN plan, and without blatant colonialist manipulation by the British, would any bloodhsed even have occured?
This is the exact same question that many ask about Yugoslavia. If it wasn’t for blatant colonial manipulation of Izetbegovic, would the war in Bosnia even have happened?
History does indeed repeat itself–as long as the same colonial overlords are at the controls of world events.
125 Comment by slim on 28 July 2008:
kumbaya,
Good points. Obviously what shapes all propaganda and perception on these issues is this fact: the ‘default’ position is where the great power(s) appoint genocidal hatemongers (Husseini, Izetbegovic, etc.)
Thus, the masses are brainwashed into thinking that this ‘moderate’ position is perfectly supportable, that is, the genocide of Serbs and Jews.
AIPAC puts up some resistance to this, and note how much anti-aipac propaganda is out there, for AIPAC fights against this ‘default’/government brainwashing position. And as FGW details, they do a very mediocre job of it.
If the British do not appoint Husseini, and the US does not continue this policy, there are no wars or fighting in the ME or Balkans. There WERE peaceful sheikhs that welcomed the Jews, particularly the Nashashibis (rivals of the Husseinis). It is the outside powers (which historically are nearly always fascists) that decide to elevate the Husseini/Izetbegovics over the Nashashibi/Abdics.
Another grave danger are certain paleocons (NOT the author of this article) that play a certain divide and conquer to keep Serbs and Jews divided.
One of the creators of this site says “Israel never has been, never will be an ally of the US”. He is CORRECT. It was the US, that after WWII absorbed the ENTIRE nazi intelligence apparatus into US intelligence (this included all kinds of Ukranian, Croatian, Latvian nazi supporters).
His statement is like the Germans saying that the Jews of the warsaw ghetto will never be allies of the Germans.
This is all detailed in Christopher Simpson’s Blowback (which is NOT conspiracy bunk). Raimondo knows this. Edward Herman knows this, Buchanan knows this.
So why do they support Husseini’s disciples and their lies when they are told about the Jews?
You can’t have it both ways. Either one supports the jihadist lies about both, or about neither. The same UN/NATO/US liars that state that Serbs were stealing Muslim lands, state that Jews are stealing Muslim land. It’s unclear why Raimondo, etc. arbitrarily decide when to believe/disbelieve such BS.
On a ‘micro’ level, certainly one can dig up an article to corroborate each claim–but we are talking broad governmental policy. Israel has never had such a policy. The palestinians are outside-power supported propaganda that is shoved down Israel’s throat. Were the claims about Israel true, she would have eradicated them long ago. But the Jews (even as fractured as they are), like the Serbs, don’t do that.
Thus I read and believe: Julia Gorin, FGW, Jared Israel, Felix Quigley, and must be careful about the rest. Don’t ever confuse Albright/Wolfowitz and these other kapo lackeys for real Jews.
Real Jews are entirely bamboozled and brainwashed (but mean well). A few of us know the truth though.
126 Comment by PcH on 28 July 2008:
What does this mean?
127 Comment by david montoute on 28 July 2008:
Slim,
sure, the zionists bought most of the land initially – mostly from absentee landlords. But how does that justify the subsequent expulsion of the people who had worked that land for 14 centuries?
Kumbaya is fundamentally wrong to accuse the British of going back on their promise. Ahem… how exactly did Jews go from being a miniscule percentage of the population to being about a third of the population on the eve of the civil war? Not by magic. They arrived as part of a colonial settler wave facilitated by the British.
But, regardless of what you say about broken promises, Palestine was NOT Britains’s to give away!
Today, Jews from anywhere in the world (including people who have no direct relation to the country whatsoever) have more legal rights to live there than the indigenous inhabitants. Any electoral canditates advocating full equality for Jews and non-Jews in Israel can be struck from the list and constitutionally banned from running.
The South Africans had a word for this.
I’m sorry, but Zionism feeds from the same trough as National Socialism.
128 Comment by david montoute on 28 July 2008:
Slim,
you also say:
“You can’t have it both ways. Either one supports the jihadist lies about both, or about neither. ”
This is conflating two entirely different things. Not all “Jihadis” are equal or believe the same things.
“Jihad” merely means struggle, and designates, for muslims, a struggle for a just cause. Now obviously, everyone has different ideas about what exactly constitutes a just cause. (If it were otherwise there would never be any inter-muslim strife)
In lumping all muslims together, you are guilty of the very racism you claim to despise.
Yasser Arafat, whom you defame as “genocidal” was in no way comparable to the Salafis of “al Qaeda” or the mercenary gangsters who fought on Izetbegovic’s side. This is one of the reasons why Milosevic sent his condolences when Arafat died (or was poisoned).
I think it would help to rise above the “us” and “them” paradigm and try and see what is happening. You seem perfectly capable of this when it comes to gentiles (e.g. the US cooperates with Iran)
Stop imagining anti-Jewish conspiracies where there are none.
Jews are being played. And Muslims are being played.
If we don’t see this, we will never overcome it.
129 Comment by slim on 28 July 2008:
“sure, the zionists bought most of the land initially – mostly from absentee landlords. But how does that justify the subsequent expulsion of the people who had worked that land for 14 centuries?”
The Arab effendi had been exploiting the fellahin for over a thousand years, and these same effendi (the Husseinis) brutalized their ‘fellow’ Arabs into selling them land for pennies on the dollar, which they (the Husseinis) then sold to the Jews. The fellahin had been exploited and lived as indentured slaves the entire time.
Why are you blaming Jews for this exploitative Arab feudal system? Some Jews kept Palestinians on as tenant farmers, some did not–but they were under no obligation to do so.
The British played all sides, but when the chips were down they were working with the Arab league and imported Nazis to crush Israel. I’ve already cited this (British Record on Partition). Fascists band together. They did so then, and they do this now.
“Today, Jews from anywhere in the world (including people who have no direct relation to the country whatsoever) have more legal rights to live there than the indigenous inhabitants. Any electoral canditates advocating full equality for Jews and non-Jews in Israel can be struck from the list and constitutionally banned from running.”
There can never be 100% equality, for this would entail Jews living as dhimmi. Israeli Arabs live better than ANY Arabs in the region. It’s as close as one can get to full equality without giving the Arabs their ‘allah given’ right to subjugate the Jews.
“The South Africans had a word for this.” Nice try, but Israeli Arabs get representation in the government and get excellent health/educational provisions. SA Apartheid otoh was based partly on eugenics, one of whose biggest victims was—Jews.
Your defense and advocacy for ethnically clean Muslim states–which are the epitome of ‘apartheid’ is duly noted.
“I’m sorry, but Zionism feeds from the same trough as National Socialism.” Nope. The only Jews that are like Nazis are the kapos that bow down to the forces that want to eliminate the Jews, which are the same forces that want to tear apart Serbia.
“a struggle for a just cause. Now obviously, everyone has different ideas about what exactly constitutes a just cause.”
Actually it’s cowardice, misogyny, and extortion dressed up as a religion, where ‘bravery’ is displayed by the likes of Samir Kuntar, the brave Lebonese man that crushed a 4 year old Israeli girl’s head against a rock. This is the ‘brave’ jihadist you defend.
“In lumping all muslims together, you are guilty of the very racism you claim to despise.”
I never lumped them all together. From what I’ve read about Abdic, I support him. I support any peaceful Muslims. The Husseini disciples are nothing more than extensions of the ‘final solution’.
“Yasser Arafat, whom you defame as “genocidal” was in no way comparable to the Salafis of “al Qaeda” or the mercenary gangsters who fought on Izetbegovic’s side. This is one of the reasons why Milosevic sent his condolences when Arafat died (or was poisoned).”
We don’t know what ‘al quaeda’ is. From all we can tell, it’s propaganda BS that is grown and spread by the US and Arabs. Arafat was a disciple of Husseini, a Jewkiller, a killer of athletes, a killer of US diplomats (who was then defended by the US State Dept).
“Stop imagining anti-Jewish conspiracies where there are none.
Jews are being played. And Muslims are being played.”
There is no ‘in between’ with the Jews. The websites I’ve cited make it pretty clear: the US has to balance the desires of the populace (support Israel) with the desires of the State Department (kowtow to the Arabs by endangering and weakening Israel). Why are there so many bogus quotes used to demonize Israel if ‘no one is out to get the Jews’? I don’t think there are any bogus quotes used to demonize Islam. It’s all over the internet, and throughout the koran.
The only Muslims being played are the peaceful ones. ‘Islam’ is not the victim, and probably has not been victimized at all in the past few hundred years. On the contrary, they have history re-written on their behalf to say how nice they were to their dhimmi Jews, who they treated like dogs, thus one of their favorite sayings is ‘the Jews are our dogs!’
130 Comment by david montoute on 28 July 2008:
“Your defense and advocacy for ethnically clean Muslim states–which are the epitome of ‘apartheid’ is duly noted.”
when exactly did i advocate that? your imagination is running away with you.
“There can never be 100% equality, for this would entail Jews living as dhimmi”
Grow up. This system died a long time ago. Muslims in Lebanon do not oppress the “dhimmi” Christians. In fact, Christians are more priveleged than Muslims in Lebanon, even though they are the minority.
Similarly, Jews in Morocco enjoys all the same rights as non-Jews. But how can you argue against “dhimma” when you advocate the same thing in Israel (but in reverse) ? Either equality is a principle or it isn’t.
“Actually it’s cowardice, misogyny, and extortion dressed up as a religion”
You obviously haven’t read the Old Testament recently – I think you’ll find plenty of the same. But thanks for that nice summary of the beliefs of a billion people. You’ve really captured the essence of the world’s diversity.
“I don’t think there are any bogus quotes used to demonize Islam. ”
Hahahahahahahahahahaha. I’m not sure what world you’re living in exactly! Maybe you need to look around a bit more, but given your familiarity with the Islamophobic community, i can only conclude you’ve seen such quotes and not recognized them for what they are.
“‘Islam’ is not the victim, and probably has not been victimized at all ”
True, Islam is not the victim. Muslims are. Hundres of thousands dead in afghanistan, 1.2 million dead in Iraq. 1,400 Lebanese dead in 2006 alone. Gazans being blown to pieces every day, their water and electricity constantly being cut off.
If Jews are the prime victims here, you might want to explain why the current casualty rate is 1 Israeli death for every eight Palestinian deaths. And this only counts the Palestinians who die directly through airstrikes etc. not those all children who die due to the indirect effects of this medieval siege.
131 Comment by james on 28 July 2008:
Former Liberal Democrat leader, MI6 agent and former EU dictator of Bosnia which is running Chechen terror camps Paddy Ashdown is urging the EU to stop Bosnian Serbs from breaking away from Bosnia.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=126637
These creeps are unbelievable it seems your only aloud to gain independence if your a narco, sex trafficking, islamist terror state with ties to the MI6/CIA terrorist organisations.
132 Comment by slim on 28 July 2008:
“when exactly did i advocate that? your imagination is running away with you.”
Your opposition to Israel’s existence is just that.
“Either equality is a principle or it isn’t.”
There are 20+ Islamic countries that suppress all rights. They escape your typical anti-Israel zealot, fraudulent quote posting brand of Jewhate. Not surprising.
“You obviously haven’t read the Old Testament recently – I think you’ll find plenty of the same. ” Actually, the OT does not contain anything resembling the Jewhate in the koran. I’m aware that peaceful Muslims do not observe said passages–but the US and Arab states are not indoctrinating Islamists into the peaceful usage.
“Hahahahahahahahahahaha. I’m not sure what world you’re living in exactly! Maybe you need to look around a bit more, but given your familiarity with the Islamophobic community”
Islamophobia doesn’t exist. Only Serbophobia and Judeophobia exist, which is why Serbs are frequently pummeled by Muslims, and Jews in Europe are getting pummeled by Muslims. Only the peaceful Muslims are oppressed–and your support for their Western appointed gangster leaders, such as Arafat, is a testament to the fact that you loathe ordinary palestinian Arabs.
“True, Islam is not the victim. Muslims are. Hundres of thousands dead in afghanistan, 1.2 million dead in Iraq. 1,400 Lebanese dead in 2006 alone. ” Nice try, but Sharia just won out in Iraq, and tallying non-combatants, more Israeli non-combatants die than palestinian, particularly non-combatant women.
You’ve already been busted, you are nothing but a revisionist historian myth teller. Be glad that Israel does not engage in the infrastructure bombing that other countries engage in.
You are nothing more than a Husseini/Eichmann apologist, a most laothesome creature to be polluting such a forum.
133 Comment by david montoute on 28 July 2008:
What revisionism have i engaged in exactly?
Incidentally “revisionism” is a neutral term and perfectly describes the content of Mr. Trifkovic’s article. It simply means reevaluating accepted truths, something which you are apparently incapable of doing where Israel is concerned.
Your comment that “only Serbophobia and Jewphobia exist” is absolutely riseable. It is an insult to the millions of muslims who died in the wake of 9/11 – a false flag attack staged by the American government, as you are perfectly aware. So, the muslims who were murdered and assaulted in the US in the aftermath of this event were not victims of Islamophobia in your opinion?
And the fact that “Sharia won out” in Iraq is a direct consequence of US policy which demolished the secular state and empowered these Shia fanatics.
And for the record, I do not “oppose Israel’s existence.” I simply reject its current, racist form.
Lastly, i do not “hate” anyone, Jews included. If you paid attention to what people actually say, you might actually learn something, instead of jumping to hysterical conclusions and imputing all sorts of beliefs that the “other side” doesn’t hold.
134 Comment by slim on 28 July 2008:
“Incidentally “revisionism” is a neutral term and perfectly describes the content of Mr. Trifkovic’s article. It simply means reevaluating accepted truths, something which you are apparently incapable of doing where Israel is concerned.”
On the contrary, thus far you’ve cited out of context information, and at least one manufactured quote regarding Israel. Much like Serb history: the further back in time one examines the primary source evidence, the more truthful it is.
Currently, the US rewrites history to whitewash our Arab allies and their complicity in all atrocities (actually, the US also did this for the Croats). Israel is no more evil than Serbia.
“Your comment that “only Serbophobia and Jewphobia exist” is absolutely riseable. It is an insult to the millions of muslims who died in the wake of 9/11 – a false flag attack staged by the American government, as you are perfectly aware. ”
Care to give a cite of all these attacks on Muslims? Like I said: Islamophobia is a myth: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-19-hate-crime_N.htm
Shortly after 9/11, all US mass media blamed it on Israel, and has continued to so, and has continued to whip up global Jewhate. Some people actually blame the actions of 19 Muslim allies on Israel. Imagine that. And in Europe, Muslims pummel Jews quite often. No one is attacking Muslims. Just another jihadist lie.
Sure, in Iraq, like Bosnia, there are Muslims being killed, and they are the ones resisting the Western/Arab imperialism. They are likely the peaceful/secular ones. The US would not do any of this if it upset our Arab allies.
“And the fact that “Sharia won out” in Iraq is a direct consequence of US policy which demolished the secular state and empowered these Shia fanatics.” So we are in agreement, and this is fully consistent with US support for jihadists in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Kosovo. I’m aware that many in Bosnia and Kosovo ‘look’ secular, but they still slaughter others based on religious reasons.
“And for the record, I do not “oppose Israel’s existence.” I simply reject its current, racist form.”
Except that it’s not. Your proposed palestinian state though has no tolerance for Jewish ‘filth’, and likely no tolerance for Christian filth either. And Israel is infinitely less racist than the Judenrein Arab countries. Like I said: you have no ability to examine context, a common characteristic of Judeophobes.
“Lastly, i do not “hate” anyone, Jews included. If you paid attention to what people actually say”
Your posts betray you. Study the things I’ve linked to and maybe you can learn to give up the hate.
135 Comment by david montoute on 28 July 2008:
You say “Shortly after 9/11, all US mass media blamed it on Israel”
And this confirms that you are living in your own private fantasy world.
“So we are in agreement, and this is fully consistent with US support for jihadists in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Kosovo.”
Yes, in these places the US has promoted a viscious and retrograde version of Islam for geopolitical purposes. In other places, it has targeted “Islam” (i.e. muslim nations and their peoples) for destruction.
Unlike you, i oppose terrorism whatever its source. Bombing civilians does not become “good” when the Israelis or the US does it.
You say:
“Your proposed palestinian state though has no tolerance for Jewish ‘filth’, and likely no tolerance for Christian filth either. ”
But most Palestinians don’t talk this way. And a substantial minority of Palestinians ARE Christians, and are subject to persecution not by their arab brethren, but by the Israeli State.
Unfortunately, your emotions have blocked your ability to see the obvious. Instead of complexity, you only see a simplistic caricature: “goodies” and “badies” – Jews/Slavs= good. Muslims/everyone else= bad.
Therefore, there is no profit in continuing this debate.
Re: “Shortly after 9/11, all US mass media blamed it on Israel”
You need to see a psychiatrist.
136 Comment by slim on 28 July 2008:
“You say “Shortly after 9/11, all US mass media blamed it on Israel””
Exagerration perhaps, but ‘former’ CIA personnel Cannistraro, McGovern, Scheuer, Larry Johnson, and others have flooded online print media, and numerous networks with their analysis in which they made it clear: they blamed in US policy regarding Israel, which is ’so unbalanced’.
And in reality, they ARE FULLY AWARE OF ALL THE FACTS IN ‘BLOWBACK’, which makes them liars and propagandist shills for the government. And their lies are inciting hate against Israel.
And I have not even gotten to Jimmy Carter, mearsheimer and Walt, and the mainstreaming of Jewhate on leftwing college campuses.
“Yes, in these places the US has promoted a viscious and retrograde version of Islam for geopolitical purposes. In other places, it has targeted “Islam” (i.e. muslim nations and their peoples) for destruction.”
And you are still unable to grasp the fact that the same empire that lied about the Serbs lies about the Jews. Evidently ‘divide and conquer’ is your objective.
“Unlike you, i oppose terrorism whatever its source. Bombing civilians does not become “good” when the Israelis or the US does it.”
No, you’ve repeatedly made excuses for palestinian terrorism against Israel, and you castigate Israel for her rather impotent attempts at self defense. Israel does not bomb civilians, thus this is a lie. Israel deploys ground troops and uses very pinpointed rocket attacks. The US, with Arab (i.e. Muslim) support, does bomb civilians. And the US empire is the opposite of Israel’s empire. The former grows, and the latter has shrunk for 40 years.
“But most Palestinians don’t talk this way. And a substantial minority of Palestinians ARE Christians, and are subject to persecution not by their arab brethren, but by the Israeli State”
All the evidence I’ve read points to the fact that it is the Muslim palestinians that cause the Christian ones to flee. Sans a citation (just like every other allegation you’ve made) your statement is worthless.
“Unfortunately, your emotions have blocked your ability to see the obvious. Instead of complexity, you only see a simplistic caricature: “goodies” and “badies” – Jews/Slavs= good. Muslims/everyone else= bad.”
Because Jews and Slavs are basically good. Both have been betrayed by traitorous leaders, but neither are consumed with the maniacal hate of the Islamists. And once again you repulsively lump the peaceful Muslims in with the Islamists. The former are no problem, it is the latter, who are dressed up as ‘moderates’ and appointed by the US State Department to help create narco/terrorist states for the US/Arab empire. Just as these ‘moderates’ were lapdogs of the Germans and British in WWII and after, they are now the lapdogs of the US State Department.
“Re: “Shortly after 9/11, all US mass media blamed it on Israel”
Well, the US certainly hasn’t blamed it on Muslims. The US declared that ‘jihad’ could never be the cause of any Islamist atrocities in the US. Thus when Bosnian Muslim Suleiman Telovic waged jihad in a Salt Lake City shopping mall, they made sure the part about him shouting ‘allahu akbar’ did not make it into the MSM.
Ditto for the 2 or 3 jihad attacks on Jewish community centers in the US. And the US State Department is bending over backwards to allow wahabiism to penetrate the US.
So nope, no one is oppressing Muslims here. And if the ordinary Muslims feel oppressed, feel like their religion has been ‘hijacked’ perhaps they should stop supporting people like Naser Oric, Izetbegovic, Arafat and the rest of the genocidal pets of the US empire.
137 Comment by slim on 28 July 2008:
From one of David’s online articles:
“The Chomskyite Left’s connivance in the corporate media’s whitewash of problematic events, and worse, its unremitting hostility to alternative interpretations, led researcher Bob Feldman to investigate the sources of ‘alternative’ media’s funding. His discoveries revealed a complex financial trail originating with huge establishment foundations. The Ford Foundation, the National Endowment for Democracy and the Trilateral Commission, George Soros and many others, were found to be generously sustaining allegedly ‘alternative’ media in the US.”
Much like Chomsky and Herman, you are entirely aware of the fact that Soros is a rabid Israel hater, and the Ford Foundation is the epitome of institutionalized Jewhate. It has never deviated from this mission and even today it funds and supports the Islamist nazis that seek Israel’s destruction.
You are aware of all this of course. So that leaves us all wondering: why do you hate these nazi sympathizers when they attack the Serbs, and you support them and their lies when they attack the Jews?
138 Comment by Kumbaya on 28 July 2008:
Both Slim and David are right, to a certain extent.
Let’s look a little more closely at the history of Palestine in the last century.
Until WW1 Palestine was held by the Ottoman Turks, but the European colonial powers all had designs on the belongings of the “sick man of Europe.”
During the war “Lawrence of Arabia,” a British spy, was stirring up Arab revolt against the Turks. In exchange for ARab help against the Turks, Lawrence promised the Arabs their own country. The British manipulation had begun.
At the same moment in time Britain sent Lord Rothschild a letter that the Jews would get a homeland–the so-called Balfour Declaration.
No doubt this was because the British politiicans of hte day were ideeply ndebted to the Rotschilds–in the same mnanner as Obama is today indebted to Wall Street. (Or any other candidate for that matter.)
Interesting how they were promising the same piece of land to both the Arabs and the Jews. Of course they never really inteded to follow through with either promise, but to keep it themselves.
The best way they could do that was to get both sides at each other’s throats and Britain gets to referee while holding all the marbles.
After WW1, Jewish immigration to Palestine began but the British put a strict quota on it. Nevertheless some 350,000 Jews did migrate to Palestine from 1920 to 1945.
At the same time the Arabs began pressing the British to make good on their promise to them for representative government–pointing to international law in the League of Nations, US President Wilson’s Fourteen Points, and other high-sounding but basically empty Western Imperialist rhetoric.
Does anyon see a train wreck coming?
Although there was little Arab resistance to Jewish immigration at first, by 1920 the Jews had formed Haganah, a militia for self-denfense from increasing Arab attacks.
By the 1930s Jewish militias like Irgun and the Stern Gang were conducting attacks on both the Arabs and the British who were working together against the Jews.
In response, the British declared these Jewish militias “terrorist” organizations and redoubled their cooperation with the Arabs to disarm the Jews.
In 1936 however, A British policeman killed a prominent sheikh, which ignited the entire population into revolt. (Unlike the blacks and hispanics of the US, the Arabs were apparently not accustomed to being gunned down in the street like dogs, by badge-toting sociopaths).
The Arabs quickly sezied a number of key cities and the British were close to losing control altogether. They then recruited the very same Jewish “terrorists” to help them beat back the Arabs.
Nothing like switching sides at the flip of a switch–kind of like the Al Quaeda created by the US to fight the Soviets, and next thing you know, now they are the enemy.
(Or could they still be friends? The Al Quada in Chechnya and Georgia certainly see their CIA sponsors and benefactors as friends. Perhaps tomorrow or the next day they will be freinds in other places too?)
But as soon as the British had used the Jews to beat back the Arab revolt, by 1939, they discarded their Jewish friends like so much excess baggage.
During WW2 the British forbade entry into Palestine altogether. The Jews had to mount an illegal immigration effort to rescue tens of thousands of European Jews from Hitler’s Gas chambers.
In 1944 the Jews assassinated Lord Moyne, the British viceroy, in Cairo. This only hardened the anti-semite Churchill’s dispostion toward the Jews.
Instead of allowing Jews fleeing Hitler to go to Palestine, more than 250,000 were rounded up by the British and held in camps until well after the end of the war.
Truman urged that 100,000 Jews be let into Palestine immediately, but Churchill refused.
This after the horror of six million innocents exterminated? How can anyone say the British acted in good faith in Palestine. It is absurd.
EVen after the Israelis gained their independence, the British continued to hold 2,000 men and boys prisoner on Cyprus, until 1949!
Looking at these events there is no question that the Imperialist British were playing Jew and ARab against each other. Inciting them to war, really.
Why? Divide and conquer. The Will of the international community as far back as 1920 was for the Jews to have a homeland. But all the British cared about was their own colonial enterprise.
Sure they made lots of promises to everyone. And, as usual, did not keep any of them. Nor did they ever intend to.
Look at what is happening today in Palestine. It is no different. The Jews and Arabs are still at each other’s throats. Why? Because there is a puppetmaster pulling the strings.
Slim and others complain that Jews are being set up again. I have to agree.
Others point out that Muslims are being played too. I have to agree with that too.
What happens for example if Israel goes ahead and attacks Iran, with America pulling the strings of course?
The result will be that Iran will have infinitely more motivation to develop atomic weapons.
In ohter words, the exact opposite will happen that the Imperialists are telling us they want to prevent.
Do you think they are that stupid? Or do they know what they are doing? Do they actually desire that Iran gets the bomb?
I believe yes. and the reason is not Israel, but Russia, the Imperialist’s only real rival at this point. The Imperialists think that once Iran has the bomb they can “turn” Iran into their camp.
The loser is Russia, which now has a nuclear-armed muslim country on its border.
There can be no doubt that Russia absolutely does not want Iran to go nuclear. And they are proceeding in a calm manner which would ensure that is the likely outcome.
But the US is stirring up all kinds of hysteria that could lead to just such an outcome. Curious, no?
139 Comment by Elizabeth on 29 July 2008:
Interesting article posted on the Byzantine art blog. (A good place to get a Serbian perspective)
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=5350.3645.0.0
It refers to this article and elaborates upon it.
I may add that the pressures that were on the Clinton government were the largely jewish neoconservatives – that ‘broad vague collective’ we can all accept I hope – and their fellow travellers – neo -liberals, a bunch of low life I doubt if any of us would defend in the woes they have visited on the planet.
The whole campaign of the vilification of Serbia with the lies and caloumnies printed in a compliant media and then vicious military attack upon it, was the exact blueprint used by the same people over Iraq and we that we are seeing again re Iran.
And make no mistakes – it was largely the same motive from the US point of view, oil and the transportation of same.
That the Americans have lost their pipelines – pipedreams now – is little comfort to the Good Serbs. That the Americans and EU have lost their dreams of controlling the Caspian is of little comfort to 500 dead Serbian children in Belgrade.
Add to that the motivation was to continue the corridor of heroin from the poppy fields to the addicts of the EU and America – which is basically Kosovo and Albania and you see the full picture. Couldn’t cut off the black funds to the CIA and MI6 (thats the international MI I think) could we?. No bribery money for all the policos without that for swiss bank accounts.? And thats just for starters. Drugs are the third – or is it second – biggest earner on the planet.
Kumbaya
WE are v. closely in agreement – your posts are v.good but to put it briefly I would add the jewish bankers ie the Rothchilds to that yacht sailing around pre WW1.
I would also add that the same jewish bankers and their jewish agents were simultaneously plotting the financing and creation of the communist Russian state and the subsequent enslavement of the Russian people for two generations. But slap on wrist for more digressions.
140 Comment by Kumbaya on 29 July 2008:
Slim makes a very good point that the Israelis treatment of the Palestinians, while admittedly harsh, does not begin to rise to the inhuman brutality exercised daily by US and British occupation troops and mercenaries in occupied Iraq and Afghanistan.
The numbers tell the story. Or every Israeli killed in by violence, eight Palestinians die.
But what about Iraq? more than one million dead compared to less than 5,000 dead invaders. That is a ratio of over 200 to one–several orders of magnitude greater than the “brutality” in Palestine.
And what do we hear from the media about this epochal atrocity? Silence. And also blame the victim.
A quick example. At the height of the bloodhsed in Iraq in 2007-2007, what was the US media talking about nonstop? The “story” how the Iraqi “government” was failing to live up to its “benchmarks.”
This is quite simply surreal. The foul stench that is the American press is quite simply unmatched in its sick depravity. Hitler’s supposed “propaganda” machine could never dream of reachihng such inhuman indifference to the truth.
Slim is absolutely correct in pointing out the massive hypocrisy. It is true that reading between the lines of even the mainstream media, Israel is being portrayed very negatively. The alternative media–which is very suspect also, as David (and Slim agrees) points out–is even worse in this respect.
Yes compared to the conscience-free reporting of American crimes in countries in which it has no business being anyway, the Israelis are being crucified for every little thing in their ongoing battle in their own land.
There is huge hypocrisy there and there is a parallel to the imperialists demonization of Serbia. Howeverm, there is no question that the Serb demonization is orders of magnitude beyond that which the Jews are subjected to.
It could only get worse for the Jews however.
Elizabeth,
Thanks for that link. That is a good article. It says exactly what I have said, that the entire Balkan bloodletting was engineered by the imperialist West, in order to recolonize the Balkans.
The author has also included the important context of German reunification–and the Soviet collapse.
The author seems to lay almost all of the blame on the Germans and portrays the US as playing along. This analogy is somewhat lacking because Germany is really a satellite state of the US.
An earlier comment by H.F. Wolff pointed this out very clearly. Germany’s foreign policy is not its own.
There can be no question that Germany is a mini-imperialist within the large US empire. But the whole Nato and EU structure is ultimately a vassal of Washington.
141 Comment by slim on 29 July 2008:
Google this to read an interesting article: “The Muslim Terrorist Apparatus was Created by US Intelligence as a Geopolitical Weapon”. Tenc also features an op-ed from the LA Times in 1988, written by Zalmay Khalilzad, where he advocates for weakening Iraq and strengthening Iran.
And this is what the US did in the Gulf war, and finished doing just now. Notice how the ‘face’ put on US imperialism seems to be Wolfowitz, Perle, etc. NEVER Khalilzad or Brzezinski, even though all actual facts would indicate these latter two are the main creators and ‘men on the ground’ for this nazi agenda.
I’d would blame the ‘neocons’, but Zalmay is not Jewish, and neither are the rest (in any literal sense). The are the face used on Western imperialism to simultaneously pulverize resistant nations, and incite a hatred of Jews/Israel at the same time. Kill two birds with one stone!
The US demonization of the Serbs definitely far exceeds that of Israel. Why? Because it can. Far more Americans go to Israel, know what goes on there, speak the language. ‘Serbia’ is this far away place that no one knows a thing about.
So this great Jewish media power is really nothing more than having enough strength to make the Western imperialism of the Allen Dulles ilk considerably more difficult. But remember that a goodly number of Jews are still sufficiently brainwashed that they think that the creation of a Muslim terrorist state will bring peace.
The only way Israel could reduce pali civilian casualties would be to not defend Israel at all. This is not only treasonous, but tantamount to saying that jihadists should be able to kill Jews with no reprisal.
Everyone here knows that jihadists have no honor, and fight like tremendous cowards: hiding behind children, women, dressing like women, and similar tactics. Jihadist bravery is smashing a young girl’s head against a rock, or Orec’s work in Srebrenica from 92-95.
In light of all this, Israel is *ridiculously* restrained, and it is the crooked NYT/CNN that lynch Israel for all collateral damage.
It’s also interesting that under Clinton and Albright, the US did a great deal of infrastructure bombing of Iraq–and the NYT and CNN reported on it very little at all. It would have ruined the illusion that the ‘hip’ ’sax playing’ ‘cool’ Bill Clinton was not really much of a pacifist at all. He also bombed a Sudanese pill factory—and this was entirely squelched in Western media.
More on infrastructure bombing by Simpson:
http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1623&Itemid=76
When the US empire and its media is complaining endlessly about Jewish self defense, and ‘disproportionate’ response, it should be examined very carefully, for the US and our jihadist allies have no honor whatsoever.
142 Comment by Pablo on 29 July 2008:
“Well, the US certainly hasn’t blamed [9/11] on Muslims”
Huh?
Did I miss something?
143 Comment by Elizabeth on 29 July 2008:
Slim
Your link was v. interesting. I am just going to post a small section below.
‘Zbigniew Brzezinski: Regret what? This secret operation was an excellent idea. It lured the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you would like me to regret that? On the day when the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote president Carter, in essence: “We now have the opportunity to provide the USSR with their Viet Nam war.” Indeed for ten years Moscow had to conduct a war that was intolerable for the regime, a conflict which involved the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet Empire.
Le Nouvel Observateur: And also, don’t you regret having helped future terrorists, having given them weapons and advice?
Zbigniew Brzezinski: What is most important for world history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? Some Islamic hotheads or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
Le Nouvel Observateur: “Some hotheads?” But it has been said time and time again: today Islamic fundamentalism represents a world-wide threat…
Zbigniew Brzezinski: Rubbish! It’s said that the West has a global policy regarding Islam. That’s hogwash: there is no global Islam. Let’s look at Islam in a rational and not a demagogic or emotional way. It is the first world religion with 1.5 billion adherents. But what is there in common between fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, moderate Morocco, militaristic Pakistan, pro-Western Egypt and secularized Central Asia? Nothing more than that which connects the Christian countries… ‘
This folks is the man running Barak Obama. Am I the only one feeling sick.
Amidst much else he admits using the Afghans as a form of rat poison. Poor devils!
I find it exceedingly gratifying to see that the biter is being well and truly bit and stuck in a Vietnam war of its own. Or I would if fine British military personnel were not dying – over 100+ – in this dirty little war. (What they are doing there I don’t know and no one has ever actually told us either.)
Of course his Bosnian trainees have mangled more than a few US troops themselves. Remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Bush administration about Bosnians fighting in Iraq.
His Chechens haven’t achieved that much. So far the genius of Putin has neutralised the threat.
He is as good as admitting what we all know – there is no ‘war on terror’. I have yet to be convinced that 9/11 had anything to do with 19 muslims and boxcutters.
And to my great satisfaction we know that he has absolutely missed out on his grand strategy for Caspian oil, not to mention the fact we are watching a resurgent Russia and a United States on the verge of economic, social and moral collapse. He who laughs last, laughs longest. (Although the Congress session of March 13th puts shivers down my English spine).
All the more reason for thinking the Serbs made a very bad call indeed at their last election.
This is an excellent article too, it is from Rense and purists don’t be put off by that, because it relates to another excellent link given in the text.
http://www.rense.com/general82/rusie.htm
Brzezinski actually hasn’t acheved much at all where the Russians are concerned. They are not chess masters for nothing.
Saying that, the thought of him back causing global mayhem is almost too much to stomach until you look at McCain and his neocon backers.
If ever there was a case of the devil and the deep blue sea and a rock and a hard place – this is it!!!!
Where it leaves the Eu and the Serbs heaven knows and don’t forget I told you that the chap in Ireland who successfully stopped the new Eu constitution and intends to fight the next Euro election – comes straight out of, with links to, the trilateralists of Brzezinski.
How do you all read that?
144 Comment by slim on 29 July 2008:
Elizabeth,
I concur, and that as soon as I saw that Brzezinski was endorsing obama, I knew that he was yet another puppet of the Western establishment.
Both candidates are tremendous Serbophobes, and both will continue the West’s big lie attacks against Israel, and the push for a palestinian terrorist state.
Here is where obama is more dangerous: as long as he has a script and teleprompter, he is indeed very charismatic. He’ll never openly attack Israel–but I can assure you he’ll make the US’s pro palestinian, pro nazi agenda even more palatable to the masses. He will continue the big lie that Islamists are being oppressed–even though the only beneficiaries to the last 30 years of US imperialism have been Islamists and mujahedin.
Another interesting post about Obama I found on Julia Gorin’s blog: http://kennethelamb.blogspot.com/2008/02/barak-obama-questions-about-ethnic.html
I’ll bet the farm that it is all true: he’s not ‘black’, he’s an Arab American. Nothing wrong with this–but why is he continually lying? Why does he pretend to be black when he actually comes from slave traders? He’s the living embodiement of the ‘big lie’ ideology.
He will do more to make Western imperialistic hate mainstream than any US leader has ever done. He will continue the ‘we’re oppressing Islamists!’ BS, while Serbs, Jews, and any other resisters to the empire get cleansed and pummelled.
Like I said: note that Western media and the CIA never seem to accidentally release ‘evidence’ of all the waterboarded Serbs and waterboarded ‘dual loyalty’ Jews. How could they? This might actually get the academia fascists to support our causes.
145 Comment by Kumbaya on 29 July 2008:
Well done, Elizabeth.
You have given us the words from the horse’s mouth that really cut to the core of the matter…
There is really only one conflict going on–and has been for a long time: the US imperialists trying to stop their only conceivalbe rivals from eclipsling them.
Namely Russia–which is emerging as the leader of a coalescing super-bloc that includes China and India. The rest of Asia will fall in line.
Your analysis that the US is toast in Asia is 100 percent correct.
The Energy issue is only one aspect of it.
That is the real reason that the US is so desperate to hang on in Iraq and Afghanistan. They know they must be there physically if they are to play any role in Asia at all.
Quite convenient that the 19 terrorists with box cutters were able to make that happen, no? One does have to wonder…
Yes, Brzezinski–who is Jewish, in name at least–has let his bragging impulse get the better of him. Rarely do we get such a candid glimpse into the duplicitous machinations of the imperialists.
He might as well have come out and said how the imperialists play all sides at once. The true puppetmasters.
Incredibly revealing that he says Global Islam “does not exist.” Ahh, there is the truth. Of course it does not exist. It is all part of the agit-prop scam invented by the clever lads (and gals) at Hill & Knowlton.
They can make up any kind of bogeyman whenever it suits their needs. That’s the beauty of mass media mind control.
The only thing old Zbiggy didn’t come out and say flatly is that the imperialists run “global Islam.” I guess he had to hold something back.
Priceless.
Yes, things are going to get even worse with our man Obama. Not just because the old team–Zbiggy, Maddy, et al, will be back in the driver’s seat.
The truth is that the writing does seem to be on the wall for this good old Empire. Starting with Vietnam and now with Vladimir cutting a swath through Asia with his mighty pipelines.
No wonder imperialists have no intention of pulling out of Korea or Japan. But when the day comes when they are asked to leave–and it will–you can then pronounce the US Empire Dead.
RIP.
146 Comment by james on 29 July 2008:
@138Elizabeth
Finally someone releases what I’ve been saying for ages that Chechens are proxy fighters for the NWO to cut off Russias access to the Caspain oil base .
The first Chechen pres with the help of Turkey met Brezinski in Harvard in 92 then got the go ahead and support to go to Bosnia and met the Bosnia pres and start training chechens in Bosnian camps and also create an international terror network. Its at this time they linked with the Algerians.
This is just a modern day “operation blue” that Hitler initiated to sieve control of the Caspain oil fields.
The first chechen war started because Chechen militias inituated an ethnic cleansing campaign against the Russians. 30,000 Russians died and the whole Russian population removed.
While this happened Rothschild gave money to Khoderkovsky to help fund the war, one they created and in return were able control the auctions of the selling of state assets to there oligarghs.
Your right Putin outsmarted the NWO making it the last true christian nation on earth.
@slim
Brzezinski is a Russophobe and along with western and middle eastern states are trying to destroy and genocide the Russians. The intelligence agencies aligned with organised crime traffic thousands of Russian girls as sex slaves into Europe each year.
147 Comment by Elizabeth on 29 July 2008:
The Empire is sick from within as well as without!
The Mexicans are doing a Kosovo on the southern and southwestern states.
Hawaii, Alaska, Vermont and now many others are seeking ‘independence’.
Dixie is reinvigorating.
Arizona and Oklahoma (I think it was these two) have just passed legislation basically telling the federal government to back off.
My word, are the neocons, americans and uncle Tom Cobley going to regret the day they fell for the idea of Kosovo ‘independence’ – all the better to get their non-existent pipelines and their dirty drugs through to the hapless victims.
James
You are quite right – the Americans and probably Brits were giving aid to the Chechens to attack Russia. They still are as I understand it. THe Americans created the Taliban and the KLA and I am sure that Kumbaya can tell us a dozen more ‘islamic terror’ groups with American pedigrees.
America has been very busy stirring up all though central Asia – a thank you to Putin for opening up airfields after 9/11 and all that jazz (fraud?!!lies?//)
The plunder of Russia under the drunken puppet Yeltsin was vile.
That a handful of Russian jews (sorry – but they are) could help themselves to great swathes of the Russian peoples resources in collusion with western banks was criminal. I think Citibank was up to its neck. How the mighty have fallen.
I love Putin getting the resources back – however like most Russians I would like to see a lot more stripped of their ill gotten gains.
The one that gets to me is Bereskovsky (spelling??) Anyway he is the rotten beast who sits in Britain and Israel – he is wanted for fraud everywhere else – protected by the two governments and doing his utmost to bring down Putin.
What a farce the Litvinenko (spelling?) ‘murder?! was. As if the Russians would kill anyone like that.
You know he was all in with the islamic chechen terrorists. I reckon that they were smuggling the stuff and he got contaminated. A view widely shared on the internet.
Of course our puppet poodles in Westminster immediately jump up and down and make cakes of themselves. Bit like when our sailors sailed into the Iranian waters.
The captain of that ship got kicked off yesterday. An admission or not? What an embarrassment – the Brits didn’t even know where they were. You would be amazed how many of us Brits were completely on side with Iran over this one. It was perfectly obvious when you saw the maps.
I don’t like the Iranians one little bit but I would defend their rights as a sovereign state.
I do have a soft spot for the Russians. LIke most of the world I really really envy them a nationalist leader who puts his country and his people first.
If, as some claim, he is NWO – he isn’t doing a very good job for them.
148 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 29 July 2008:
Here is an interesting coumn:
http://en.fondsk.ru/article.php?id=1502
28.07.2008
Alexander MEZYAEV
The Hague: A Lethally Dangerous Place
…”A circumstance that should not be overlooked is that Karadžić was arrested at the time when, as planned by the UN Security Council, the Tribunal is about to close. According to the plan, all trials must be completed by the end of 2008, and all appeals must be processed by the end of 2010. It is obvious at the moment that the schedule will not materialize. Some of the trials are at the very early phase (for example, the trial of Serbian Radical Party’s President Vojislav Šešelj) and others have not even commenced nor are going to open in the nearest future. Russia addressed the situation by suggesting not to extend the Tribunal’s mandate and to transfer the currently open proceedings to national jurisdictions. It is clear in the context that the arrest of Karadžić can benefit the ICTY. Notably, the Tribunal is the costliest institution run by the UN. The salaries of its judges are orders of magnitude higher than those of the presidents of Western countries. The exact salaries of the ICTY judges and prosecutors are kept secret, but one can guess a lot from the fact that minor ICTY attorneys are paid Euro 30,000 a month. The end of the Tribunal would be a personal drama for its employees. Russia’s suggestion to transfer incomplete cases to national courts is not a problem-free solution either. Does Karadžić have a chance to stand fair trial in Bosnia where the case would belong as the alleged crimes were committed in its territory? No doubt, no fair trial of Karadžić can be expected in the Hague either, but there at least the process would be watched by the whole world….”
149 Comment by Kumbaya on 29 July 2008:
Boba,
That is an interesting article.
As the author points out, the main purpose of the Hague tribunal is to write a false history for the Balkans crisis of the 1990s.
It is also quite chilling that so many defendants have died in custody. This cannot be a coincidence.
Here is the true face of the imperialist criminal enterprise.
Leaders of countries being killed in a kangaroo court. And let’s not forget Gitmo, the gulag of secret CIA prisons around the world, the rendition flights–the true face of imperialism is Satanic in its grotesque evil.
And yet the American sheeple are sleepwalking through it all. They are more interested in Britney Spears than the fact that they now have less control over their lives than feudal serfs in the Middle Ages.
Incredible.
150 Comment by Kumbaya on 29 July 2008:
“Serbs is a nation that the West has decided to exterminate. The Western puppeteers intend to do that with Serbian hands, too.”
– Anna Filimonova, writing in Strategic Culture Foundation Online Magazine.
http://en.fondsk.ru/article.php?id=1498
151 Comment by slim on 29 July 2008:
Brzezinski? Jewish?!?
That’s a good laugher. Given that he’s Polish, and an anti-Israel zealot, and that he spells his name ’ski’ (not ’sky’), it’s likely he’s Catholic.
Sure enough, his daugher is listed as Roman Catholic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mika_Brzezinski
152 Comment by james on 30 July 2008:
#@142Elizabeth
The whole Al Queda things a farce. The camps in Afghanistan were set up by the ISI/CIA and financed by Abdullah Bin Laden to train chechens and other islamists to fight against the Russians.
Like in the Afghan war islamists were aloud to travel freely in Europe and the US, recruit and raise funds for islamic militants. This is what happened on 9/11 except this time an offshoot of this group splintered and had its own agenda similar to the first World Trade Centre bombing by Ramzi Yousef who featured in a Bosnian recruitment video.
All the hijackers who are identified (not the ones that turned out to be still alive ) were recruited to fight in Chechnya including Mohammed Atta.
In fact Atta meet on several occasions with Nick Berg ( killed in Iraq ) even having access to his laptop. Was Nick Berg his handler.
Remember Mohammed Atta being in the Czech Republic?
The Czech Republic is home to numerous CIA/MI6 chechen front NGO’s including an MI6 mine training NGO.
And Czech intelligence were monitoring him at the time.
The money transfered to the 9/11 hijackers by a Pakistani general from Pakistan was earmarked for Chechnya. And there stay in the US was financied by Abdullah Bin Ladens Benevolence Fund.
In fact every major terrorist attck since 9/11 has links to Bosnia and Chechnya.
It suprises me why these 9/11 truthers dont research the hijackers themselves.
Former CIA agent in counter terrorism intelligence for Russia since 1994 Paul Murphy wrote an excellent book called “Wolves of Islam”
Its a must read.
It shows what Russia is up aginst, how many countries support chechen terrorism and there links overseas to islamist networks in Europe, US and Middle East and you’ll begin to see what this whole “war on terror” is about especially 9/11.
The explosives used in the London bombing were explosives removes from the head of an old chinese warhead and smuggled into the UK from Kosovo.
“What a farce the Litvinenko(spelling?) ‘murder?! was”
Your absolutely right!
A jewish journalist Epstein actually bothered to research this and concluded what you and I suspected that he was smuggling plutonium and contaminated himself.
http://www.russiablog.org/2008/04/litvinenko_story_revisited.php
His research found that:
1) He was an MI6 agent traveling on a false MI6 passport to the Panski Gorge, a chechen terror camp hub were the chechen mafia operate.
2) Traces of the Plutonium 210 were found in places were the main suspect never visited.
3) They hired a government PR man Lord something to run the story and give to the newspapers.
4) Britian never gave the Russians an autopsy report or any other credable evidence for extradition.
And I’ll add that he would have on hundreds of CCTV images yet not one has been released which would show if hes carrying a container or not.
Berezovsky is a ruthless billionaire organised
crime boss. Forbes Russian editor and US citizen Paul Khlebnikov wrote a book about him called “Godfather of the Kremlin” about his links to organised crime and how he gained influence in Russia.
Khlebnikov was machine gunned down in the streets of Moscow when he was about to write another book about Berezovsky.
As far as the Ukraine dioxine poisoning case went Justin Raimondo of antiwar.com destroyed that myth http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13192
153 Comment by james on 30 July 2008:
=-0uu9h0
@142Elizabeth
The whole Al Queda things a farce. The camps in Afghanistan were set up by the ISI/CIA and financed by Abdullah Bin Laden to train chechens and other islamists to fight against the Russians.
Like in the Afghan war islamists were aloud to travel freely in Europe and the US, recruit and raise funds for islamic militants. This is what happened on 9/11 except this time an offshoot of this group splintered and had its own agenda similar to the first World Trade Centre bombing by Ramzi Yousef who featured in a Bosnian recruitment video.
All the hijackers who are identified (not the ones that turned out to be still alive ) were recruited to fight in Chechnya including Mohammed Atta.
In fact Atta meet on several occasions with Nick Berg ( killed in Iraq ) even having access to his laptop. Was Nick Berg his handler.
Remember Mohammed Atta being in the Czech Republic?
The Czech Republic is home to numerous CIA/MI6 chechen front NGO’s including an MI6 mine training NGO.
And Czech intelligence were monitoring him at the time.
The money transfered to the 9/11 hijackers by a Pakistani general from Pakistan was earmarked for Chechnya. And there stay in the US was financied by Abdullah Bin Ladens Benevolence Fund.
In fact every major terrorist attck since 9/11 has links to Bosnia and Chechnya.
It suprises me why these 9/11 truthers dont research the hijackers themselves.
Former CIA agent in counter terrorism intelligence for Russia since 1994 Paul Murphy wrote an excellent book called “Wolves of Islam”
Its a must read.
It shows what Russia is up aginst, how many countries support chechen terrorism and there links overseas to islamist networks in Europe, US and Middle East and you’ll begin to see what this whole “war on terror” is about especially 9/11.
154 Comment by Elizabeth on 30 July 2008:
James
The problem with the arab theory is that none of them is listed as actually being on the flights. Certainly no Arab was on the flight into the Pentagon. A doctor requested the Dna samples under FOI – for what that is worth in the circs. None fitted the so called hijackers and their names were not even on the listing.
There is the small problem of WTC7.
There is a small problem of no Boeing in the Pentagon – bearing in mind the oficial explanation is that it was consumed by fire titanium and all yet the passengers DNA was supposedly confirmed.
There is a small problem of no wreckage, yet again, from flight 93.
Just the other day the chief (navy) proscecution lawyer in a gitmo trial said flight 93 has been shot down.
And thats just for starters. Try ‘Patriots for 9/11′.
In fact 9/11 is so littered with small problems it just becomes one huge problamatic story.
Ron Paul is right – a new inquiry. Even those who wrote the first one want another on the grounds they were told porkies.
155 Comment by Elizabeth on 30 July 2008:
Is this still under moderation please?
It is highly relevant to yesterdays posts.
The king takes all
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JG30Ag01.html
One of the pawns tries to resist checkmate
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/35111
The Serbs really really blew it.
156 Comment by Kumbaya on 30 July 2008:
Slim,
If Brzezinski was not from a Jewish family, why did his father, a career diplomat, pull the family to safety in Canada in 1939, where they sat out the entire war?
Just like the Albrights.
After the war, they were “not able” to return to Poland.
Just because his daughter is Catholic, does not mean anything. Brzezinski’s wife could be a gentile, which means the offspring are not Jewish.
Even Brzezinski or his parents could have converted earlier. There were many like that.
Sure he’s an anti-semite, so are lots of other Jews, Chomsky etc.
James and Elizabeth,
Everything about the “war on terror,” the Islamist threat, etc. is pure BS.
Like Brzezinskis says, it is “rubbish.” Al Quaeda was created by the imperialists to undermine Russia and continues to be a CIA puppet.
The coincidence of a 9-11 happening just when the US needed a “war on terror” in order to re-enter Central Asia is just too pat.
157 Comment by Billy Bob on 30 July 2008:
Just a quick observation. There are a quite a few anti-Israel (read antisemitic) comments on this particular blog. Looks like the censors at The Chronicles have fallen down on the job. Or else they have had a change of heart.
158 Comment by slim on 30 July 2008:
Sans even a morsel of proof from any remotely credible source, Brzezinski is not Jewish.
Not to say that Jews are incapable of holding such ideology (eg. Wolfowitz, etc.), but there seems to be no indication that Brzezniski is one.
Not to mention that if he WAS Jewish, numerous MSM sources and Jewish conspiracy sources would make this loud and clear (as they do for Wolfowitz, Pearle, etc.).
But his ideology is entirely anathema to Judaism, and tremendously anti-Israel (to the point of hiring and whitewashing Islamist mercenaries). Thus, those inclined to believe in “Jewish conspiracies” should love him—he’s entirely anti-Jewish (similar to Wolfowitz, Pearle, etc.).
So far, you seem to have pulled this one out of your rear.
Albright is Catholic. She was merely pulling a common propaganda move of exposing the ‘Jews in her attic’ when convenient for associating her fascist ideology with people that want nothing to do with it.
159 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 30 July 2008:
THE HAGUE — Former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic sat in a UN jail cell Wednesday after being flown to the Netherlands in the dead of night to face …..
His arrival in a white Serbian government jet marked the end of a 13-year effort by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia to take custody of its most wanted war criminal. …
The tribunal will “ensure his well being and right to a fair trial as much as possible and in accordance with the highest international standards,” spokeswoman NERMA (Muslim name) Jelacic said in confirming Karadzic’s arrival at the detention centre outside The Hague…..
160 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 30 July 2008:
TADIC THE TRAITOR
THE HAGUE — Former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic sat in a UN jail cell Wednesday after being flown to the Netherlands in the dead of night to face …..
His arrival in a white Serbian government jet marked the end of a 13-year effort by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia to take custody of its most wanted war criminal. …
The tribunal will “ensure his well being and right to a fair trial as much as possible and in accordance with the highest international standards,” spokeswoman NERMA (Muslim name) Jelacic said in confirming Karadzic’s arrival at the detention centre outside The Hague…..
161 Comment by Elizabeth on 30 July 2008:
Anyone voting Tadic knew what they were doing.
The real traitors are the socialists.
How many socialist voters voted for this?
I thought Dr Karadzic had the right of appeal?
What has happened to that?
Has it just been ignored?
Human rights – not for Serbs it seems.
If it was an islamic terrorist the world would be up in arms.
162 Comment by james on 30 July 2008:
@148Elizabeth
The Shankville failed hijacking flight had Arabs on it thats probably why it failed.
The Pentagon and Trade Tower attacks we dont know who the hijackers on the planes were. Is it possible that they were white in appearance say white muslims that why they were so successful in taking the plane hostage.
163 Comment by james on 30 July 2008:
@Elizabeth
I’ve repeatedly tried to post a comment on the litvinenko affair and evidence to what a farce it is but Chronicles wont let me post it.
164 Comment by Elizabeth on 30 July 2008:
James
I really don’t think there is any question of arabs on 9/11. Check out the creme de la creme of the 9/11 sites
‘patriots for 9/11′ and you will find hundreds of prominent Americans from diplomats to pilots, from architects and engineers to actors and commentators. family – all sorts – all with questions and demanding investigation.
Which arabs brought down WTC7?
I think we, and I am one, are pushing the parameters of the topic too far. I have one excellent post on moderation and I am not sure whether it has appeared or not. It was relevant to the Caspian question.
There is a superb article today by Brendan O’neill on Antiwar re the Bosnian issue
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/oneill.php?articleid=13222
and a follow up on Rense to a link yesterday re oil and pipelines which is of course relevant to Serbia.
http://www.rense.com/general82/fore.htm
We may have expanded the boundaries but I for one have really enjoyed all the debate. Even when I don’t agree I respect an opposing viewpoint although remain unconvinced.
Thanks all.
165 Comment by david montoute on 30 July 2008:
James,
“It suprises me why these 9/11 truthers dont research the hijackers themselves.”
They have. Extensively.
Check the work of the Propaganda Matrix site, or that of Michel Chossudovsky.
Elias Davidson has compiled a comprehensive summary of the (lack of) evidence for ‘hijackers’ :
http://911blogger.com/node/16159
If you are running an operation like this, the most logical approach is to rely on the technology, NOT on highly unpredictable human beings. With around 200 people on board the four flights, any number of things could have gone wrong. So the only coherent approach would be to have pilotless planes.
See this early (and very important) article:
http://www.911-strike.com/remote_skills.htm
Gerald Holmgrem was the first person to point out that the Bureau of Transportation Statistics did not have flight 11 OR flight 77 (the ‘pentagon’ plane) listed as flying on 9-11.
http://sydney.indymedia.org.au/node/13779
166 Comment by david montoute on 30 July 2008:
Excellent article posted on Anti War about the shared ground of left wing “humanitarian bombers” and radical muslim fanatics:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/oneill.php?articleid=13222
167 Comment by james on 30 July 2008:
@159Elizabeth
Does anyone know what was in tower 7?
I suspect it might have been a housing for storing electronic information and communications in the WTC which would show if instant messages were sent to certain employees warning of the attack before hand like Odigo. That why it had to be brought down.
But it would be good for sure to know what was the purpose of WTC7
And what about renegade FBI investigator John O’Neil who was missing for 3 days prior to 9/11 body being found in the wreckage of WTC?
I think the real smoking gun however is the Urban Moving 5 arrested, found to possess box cutters, explosives and money, failed a lie detector test and aloud to leave the country.
168 Comment by Elizabeth on 31 July 2008:
James
What was in WTC7
A bit like the room in Hogwarts castle for the storing of.
Amongst much else lots of nasty records etc that some people would like to see the back of.
But it is all easily found on the net.
Someone more expert than I may be able to point you to the right place. Some sites are better than others, some are just intel sites trying to murk the waters.
WTC 1,2 and 7 were all owned by the same chap Larry Silverstein who bought them for some millions 6 months earlier – they were full of asbestos, and promptly insured them for billions and watched them fall. So many top experts have testified they were brought down by explosive I don’t think any rational person could deny it.
John O’Neill was a very good guy and held informatin many would not have wanted known His death was very convenient. You can check him out on the net as well.
Who really was behind the attack is a matter for debate but there are two general facts agreed. Dick Cheney was in it up to his neck and 19 arabs with boxcutters is the biggest sick joke in decades.
169 Comment by james on 31 July 2008:
@163Elizabeth
I think the hijackers used explosives like RDX to take control of the plane and maybe agents in airport security help smuggle on board guns. The whole idea that they could hijack and subdue a whole plane in a matter of minutes with box cutters is ludicrous and that no one would challenge them.
I think thats what happend with shankville plane they were not able to hijack the plane properly so they blew it out of the air with explosives.
You should definitely read Paul Murphys book Wolves of Islam its vital to understanding whats going on in this farcical “war on terror”.
170 Comment by Elizabeth on 31 July 2008:
James
The navy prosecutor at Gitmo admitted the other day that Flight 93 was shot down. Long suspected by some of the 9/11 truthers.
There are various theories about the other 3. There are reports that several may have landed at Cleveland – in the case of the Pentagon, the Boeing landed at the airport just the other side of the building. What attcked the Pentgon was a small jet or missile or combination.
There are even question marks over the actual planes that hit WTC 1 and 2
None of the wreckage fits the aircraft involved.
There is also the question of the cell phone calls.
It has been confirmd they could not have been made from the aircraft. It has also been officially confirmed Barbara Olsen never made the call from the aircraft as her husband – a v. high official in the Bush government – claimed.
So much is coming out yet like Serbia and so much else you only get to read what they want you to know.
171 Comment by Stephen Gash on 31 July 2008:
Calling all Serbs. Please join “Stop Islamisation Of Europe – SIOE” on its demo against muslim ethnic cleansing of Greenlanders in the town of Gellerup in Denmark.
Take a look at our site to see our stance on the rule of hypocrisy in Europe which has been so eloquently described in Srdja ’s article above.
SIOE supports Serbia’s ancient claim on it territory of Kosovo. It invited Serbia’s new president to sign its anti-Kuffarphobia petition, but received no reply from the Serbian government.
Please bring Serbian flags and pre-”independence” Kosovo flags.
Europeans must now stand together against the islamisation of Europe.
As with all SIOE events, totalitarian Nazi and communist symbols are banned.
Islam is the nastiest form of totalitarianism so naturally is also disallowed.
172 Comment by david montoute on 31 July 2008:
@James
” I think the hijackers used explosives like RDX ”
What ‘hijackers’?
173 Comment by james on 31 July 2008:
@166david montoute
The US did release the airport video of the hijackers who boarded the shanksville plane.
I dont subscribe to the theory that they were no hijackers and that it was remote controlled planes especially since numerous witessess that saw Mohammed Atta and the other Arab hijackers and is confirmed they were in the US.
It also negates the fact that for the past 20+ years western intelligence have been arming, funding and training islamic militants to fight in CIA theatres of combat.
All the hijackers including banks, financiers and organisations had links and current links to CIA islamist bases and arenas of combat.
Again why was Mohammed Atta in the Czech Rep?
174 Comment by Elizabeth on 31 July 2008:
Excellent article about Bosnia and Karadzic from Intel Daily.
http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=172&a=7709
175 Comment by james on 31 July 2008:
@Elizabeth
If you know another blog or something were I can post my comment on the litvinenko farce then I would appreciate if you could post a link so you can read it.
Also I forgot to mention the explosives used in the London bombing were explosives removed from the head of an old chinese warhead and smuggled into the UK from Kosovo by a Pakistani cell created by the MI6 and ISI to fight the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo.
Experts testify that high quality home made explosive from ordinary household items is nearly impossible that why the second wave of suicide bombers failed theres were homemade.
176 Comment by Elizabeth on 31 July 2008:
James
I don’t know of such a site but I am very happy to have the moderator – if he would be so kind and is able – to forward to you my private E mail address.
Its the best I can do.
177 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 31 July 2008:
RICHARD HOLBROOKE THE KILLER!
http://news. xinhuanet. com/english/ 2008-08/01/ content_8885539. htm
Karadzic fears for life because of deal with U.S.
THE HAGUE, NETHERLANDS, July 31 (Xinhua) — Former Bosnian Serbleader Radovan Karadzic said at the United Nations war crimes court Thursday that he is gravely concerned about his life because the United States might be seeking to “liquidate” him.
Karadzic, who appeared for the first time before the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) on Thursday, told the judge that he had a deal with the United States before withdrawing from the public life in 1996.
He said Richard Holbrooke, the then U.S. assistant secretary of state, presented him with a deal, requesting him withdrawing entirely from the public life in return for a drop of efforts to prosecute him at the ICTY.
Holbrooke was the chief broker of a peace agreement among the warring factions in Bosnia that led to the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords in 1995.
Karadzic said he fulfilled his commitment and withdrew from the public life and did not do anything to endanger the implementation of the Dayton accord.
Karadzic said that it was because of the secret deal with Washington that he had not come to the court in The Hague any time earlier.
The 63-year-old former president of Bosnian Serb Republic said he is concerned that if Holbrooke’s arm is long enough to reach the court, he might be “liquidated.”
“I must say it is a matter of life and death,” he said…..
Karadzic said he would like to defend himself throughout the trial. “I would like to defend myself before the institution just as I would like to defend myself before any national catastrophe,” he said.
178 Comment by james on 31 July 2008:
@slim
I’ve got links to jewish news and organisations websites that prove the jewish community in the US and Canada fully supported the Bosnian and Kosovar Albanians.
Jewish organisations even released press statements.
Jewish senators passed reolutions against the Serbs as well as authorisation for NATO to bomb Serbia in 99.
179 Comment by james on 31 July 2008:
@Elizabeth
We should keep our eyes out and be prepared for a false flag operation to lure the US into a war against Iran. Like a USS Liberty style attack.
Theres been a lot of speculation that a US ship will be sabotaged near the Iranian waters and claimed that the Iranians attacked it.
180 Comment by Elizabeth on 31 July 2008:
I shouldn’t really post this but can’t resist.
A little tittle tattle about Madeleine Albright. You may have already seen it but for those of you who haven’t – enjoy.
If you look at the other options on this site – the item about Russia and the Turkman oil is v. good.
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3497.shtml
181 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 31 July 2008:
Here is the video on Karadzic’s appearance before the inquisition in The Hague on July 31, 2008.
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/karadzic-in-court/#clip70786
Former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic said that he is gravely concerned about his life because the United States might be seeking to “liquidate” him.
He said Richard Holbrooke, the then U.S. assistant secretary of state, presented him with a deal, requesting him withdrawing entirely from the public life in return for a drop of efforts to prosecute him at the ICTY.
Karadzic said he fulfilled his commitment and withdrew from the public life and did not do anything to endanger the implementation of the Dayton accord.
Karadzic said that it was because of the secret deal with Washington that he had not come to the court in The Hague any time earlier.
Dr. Karadzic is concerned that if “Holbrooke’s arm is long enough to reach the court, he might be liquidated.”
“I must say it is a matter of life and death,” Karadzic said.
On Thursday, presiding judge Alphons Orie read out a summary of the indictment of Karadzic. Karadzic refused to enter a plea on each of the 11 charges against him. .
Karadzic said he would like to defend himself throughout the trial. “I would like to defend myself before the institution just as I would like to defend myself before any national catastrophe,” he said.
TWO QUESTIONS:
1) Why would Serbia’s (Tadic) authorities keep (and not return) Dr. Karadzic’s lap-top with the documentation for his defence?
2) Why would Dr. Karadzic use the only opportunity he had at The Hague to accuse Richard Holbrooke of possible liquidation?
This is a serious accusation that Holbrooke must be asked about and respond to.
182 Comment by slim on 31 July 2008:
James,
I’ve never denied that. I’ve said repeatedly: Jews were lied to and bamboozled by the lies of Rudder Finn, and media that was erroneously assumed to be ‘impartial’. US msm still does not tell the truth (the NYT repeats the Srebrenica big lie at least every week or two).
The leaders of the mainstream Jewish organizations probably did not even know the truth. In the 1930s and 40s, these leaders were lackeys of the State Department.
At this point in time, I don’t even think they have any ‘inside’ knowledge at all.
Israel and Israeli intelligence knew the truth and supported the Serbs, based on what I’ve read.
Like I said: all neocons (be they ‘Jewish’ or Muslim, like Khalilzad) are loyal only to US imperialism, and nothing else.
The New York Times and similar media make sure you think that Wolfowitz and Pearle are leading the charge–while it simultaneously fawns over Zalmay Khalilzad, which indicates the degree of BS that this whole ‘pro Israel neocon’ line is.
There are Jews that speak the truth (Julia Gorin and a few others), but in the US if you deviate from State Department issued revisionist history, you are branded a ‘conspiracy kook’ or a ‘holocaust denier’ (eg. for exposing the Srebrenica fraud).
As an example: I’m a staunch anti jihadist, and I’m fully aware that the US is pro-jihadist. I’ve been banned from littlegreenfootballs repeatedly for standing up to the Serbophobic revisionist history told there. People on his site are so stupid that they accuse Serbs of sig heiling and being like nazis.
The media is under such tight control that being pro-Serb and denying this Srebrenica BS is not allowed. And discussing any of the Oklahoma City, 9/11, US government connections will get you branded a kook.
It’s a shame b/c it is clear to me that the US government has become very much like the Nazi apparatus it always aspired to be. Fortunately though, we do have freedom in our propaganda bubble, as long as you are not a Serb that defends Serbs, a Jew that defends Jews, or an ‘uncle tom’ black that preaches that blacks need to get off of welfare, get an education, and become self reliant…
183 Comment by james on 31 July 2008:
Maybe he will end up like Milosevic if he puts up a good defence.
If he has no pre existing health problems like Milosevic I’ll bet he will mysteriously develope cancer by gradually exposure to depleted uranium or use some other technique.
Psyche Op are probably using techniques on him to weaking his rational thinking and mental wellbeing before the trail.
184 Comment by morava on 31 July 2008:
i agree james. im sure noone knows whats in store for him. Being that two Serbs of high position have somehow died in the Hague in the past. Milosevic who mysteriously died of a heart attack and Milan Babic who was also found dead in his cell, apparently committing suicide. Its all too much of a coincidence if u ask me….
im not sure if this is how they did it but i heard that they poisoned Milosevic and suffocated Babic with a pillow. i guess we’l never know….
185 Comment by james on 31 July 2008:
@180slim
Jews have hundreds of organisations looking out for there well being.
Jewish groups like the ADL can promote jews marrying other jews yet chastise other white conservative groups that say the same thing for there own people without contridiction.
Our how come ultra racist Chabad-Lubavitch Rabbis are allowed to preach and hold prayer ceremonies in the white house.
The only true people being persucuted are Serbs and Russians. In congrees dozens of anti-Russian resolutions have been passed, chechen terrorists are on CIA payrolls there lobbies, PR and websites just like the Kosovars and citizenship is denied to ethnic Russians born in the Baltic states.
186 Comment by BlueEyedDevil on 1 August 2008:
The Muslims nearly conquered Europe centuries ago when, thank God, they were stopped at the gates of Vienna by ancestors of ours who would be on trial for “genocide,” “ethnic cleansing”, and other phony “crimes”, had their been an international court of “justice” in those days.
Under the cover of “multiculturalism” muslims now appear to be succeeding, with immigration, where they failed with military force. Their presence on our holy soil has brought us nothing but conflict and grief.
Nearly half the surface of the planet is now claimed as homelands by the spritual descendants of Mohammed. Would they tolerate a threat to their cultures and ethnicities by mass immigration of white Christian peoples? Of course not. Wake up, Europeans, before you find yourselves completely overrun and dispossessed of the lands that your forefathers gave their sweat to build and their blood to defend as your own inheritance.
187 Comment by Elizabeth on 1 August 2008:
From Antiwar today.
Usual good article yesterday from Mr Malic.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13236
188 Comment by david montoute on 1 August 2008:
Elizabeth,
That article was written by Justin Raimondo, NOT Nebojsa Malic.
189 Comment by slim on 1 August 2008:
James,
Could you provide a cite of the ADL being upset with other white groups saying that their people should only marry ‘their’ people? I’ve never heard of such.
When have the ‘ultra racist Lubovitch’ rabbi’s called for anyone’s death? When have they preached genocide or cleansing of anyone?
Oh that’s right–they haven’t, and the websites that say such nonsense are funded by Arabs and promote Arabist lies about Israel (WRMEA is the main site for this).
Rest assured that the Lubovitch rabbis make far fewer visits to the White House than the ultra-racist ‘moderate’ pets of the US State Department or the ultra-racist oil-money Arab friends of our elites.
Make note that the US is not actually spreading zionism anywhere, nor installing any zionist puppets anywhere.
190 Comment by Elizabeth on 1 August 2008:
David
I meant to post the Justin Raimondo article.
I just mentioned the Malic article in passing.
It is easy to see it if you go to the Antiwar site so didn’t worry about the link.
Sorry if I was confusing.
Slim
‘Could you provide a cite of the ADL being upset with other white groups saying that their people should only marry ‘their’ people? I’ve never heard of such.’
If you dared to propose such a thing in England you would be before the courts for ‘inciting racial hatred’.
I think many people would be amazed if the Israeli law of Jews only marrying Jews was more widely known. More pure apartheid than South Africa ever had before it was brought down and turned into a cesspit.
A throw back to the worse side of American segregation surely.
What amazes me is the double standards.
If Jews only want to marry Jews – that is their business but I object strongly to the fact that the same jewish people are largely in the forefront of the ‘race industry’ and the criminalization of any white person who mght wish to say ‘white people should only marry white people’ or in the extreme propose legislation to make it law.
Like ‘denying the holocaust’ meaning you spend years in prison in certain nation states for thought crime, I oppose (and so do most people at least where I live) the idea that free speech must be curtailed with threat of prison for speaking out on race in a way the PC brigade, including the Jewish lobby, don’t like.
Just another example of how our liberty is increasingly being trampled into the mud.
191 Comment by james on 1 August 2008:
@185slim
I mentioned the Chabad Lubavitch movement as theres been a lot of talk about this group on the internet which they usually reference this statement.
“As for the goyim…Zalman’s attitude (was): “Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.” …If every simple cell in a Jewish body entails divinity, is a part of God, then every strand of DNA is a part of God. Therefore, something is special about Jewish DNA. …
If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that. Jewish life has an infinite value,” he explained. “There is something infinitely more holy and unique about Jewish life than non-Jewish life. – Chabad Lubavitch Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh in Jewish Week, the largest Jewish publication in the United States.
This Statement was made by a leading Lubavitch Rabbi named Yitshak Ginsburgh and it can be found in the April 26, 1996 Jewish Week”
I cant actually find a link to the original articles and if this is false I would like to know what the Chabad Lubavitch movements purpose is.
192 Comment by james on 1 August 2008:
@186Elizabeth
I’m suprised no one has commented on this article.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13192
The was the first major propaganda against Russia against “Eeevilllll” Putin and Russia.
193 Comment by james on 1 August 2008:
Australian news article confirms a Karadzic-Holbrooke deal.
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/age080108.htm
194 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 2 August 2008:
Agreement Richard Holbrooke Offered and Signed with RS President Karadzic on Behalf of U.S. Government
[Copy of the signed Agreement can be seen on this web site:
http://www.kurir-info.rs/clanak/vesti/kurir-01-08-2008/sporazum-karadzic-holbruk ]
Obligations
1. RK is under obligation to submit his resignation to all the state and [political] party functions. Decision comes to force within 90 days, as needed to settle the necessary issues with the rest of leadership. Resignation has to be irretrievable. Influence the leading party officials in a direction of easing the resignation issue and the change in the hierarchy.
2. Until submitting his resignation, RK will not be reaching political or state decisions, nor will he influence others to reach decisions pertaining to any of the following:
2-1 Combat operations on the territory of BiH [Bosnia-Herzegovina]
2-2 Moving the civilian population
2-3 The international agreements: military, economic, security, regional integrations
2-4 Appointing the state, party, regional, cultural administrations, functionaries
2-5 Relocating the financial means
(in force from 5.11.03:30)
3. RK will withdraw from the public life. This includes refusing to give interviews, statements (in person or through the intermediaries), non-publishing [illegible] of political and current problems.
Obligations 2
1. United States Government is under obligation not to influence, directly or indirectly, the SDS leadership [Dr. Karadzic's political party] to affect dissolution of the party.
2. United States Government is making available the sum of 600,000 USD to RK, in the local currency. The sum is designated to enable RK’s support in the 6 year period.
3. United States Government is making residential object available to RK, at the location agreed upon during the earlier verbal agreement.
4. United States Government is providing physical protection for RK, not less than 6 men.
5. United States Government has a duty to inform RK about every possible threat to his safety.
Final stipulations:
1. This agreement is permanent.
2. RK’s violations of the agreement will be treated as a serious violation of the informal agreement, in the sense of the article 3 paragraph 25 of the Internal Regulations and in that sense it will be sanctioned with the immediate termination.
3. The agreement can be terminated through a mutual consent, or upon the initiative of United States Government.
Signed by: Radovan Karadzic (on the left) and Richard Holbrooke (right).
195 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 2 August 2008:
James @ 187, especially the second paragraph:
Interesting post. I have suspected for a very long time that the characteristics & misdeeds the Germans have been accused of since the beginning of WWI are, in fact, those that the Zionists with their supporters, and their current offspring the neocons, are guilty of.
Only in the last few years have I become aware of the tactic of accusing one’s opponent of the deeds one is guilty of: When Israel and the USA began bleating about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and Iran, and presented their “irrefutable evidence” in support of that assertion, I distinctly recall (my wife confirms this) mumbling as to who would believe such rubbish.
Alas, enough people did believe it.
And who has all the WMD in the middle east??? Who has threatened other countries with nuclear attacks???
On a pragmatic level I find the disinterest of the public at large, regarding taxation levels and what their “representatives” in government do with this money, quite inconceivable. Just think what would happen if a complete stranger waltzed into your castle and demanded that you hand over 40% of your earnings for him to do as he pleases.
Personally I have had more than a few things to say to anybody that spend practically half of my earnings.
H.F. Wolff
196 Comment by james on 2 August 2008:
Recently a fairly high profile TV presenter in the UK Jill Dando who was killed 8 years ago convicted killers sentence was overturned and released on appeal.
Now the media is pushing the theory as it did back then that a Serb hitman killed her.
What are they basing this on?
Because she featured on a TV appeal ad to send aid to kosovo Albanians during the NATO bombardment of 1999 and that the killer wore a white suit and kill her with a single shot to the back of the head with a hollow point bullet.
197 Comment by beli zar on 2 August 2008:
“By Friday, Holbrooke was able to announce that Karadzic would give up his political power as president of the Bosnian Serb Republic and as leader of the Serb Democratic Party. Karadzic also agreed not to appear in public or on broadcast media.
RICHARD HOLBROOKE, Bosnia Negotiator: I want to stress he knew what he was signing, knew he was signing the end of his political career.”
and more:
“CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: But now you got this piece of paper signed by Karadzic.”
Full text on:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/bosnia/july96/holbrooke_7-22.html
198 Comment by james on 2 August 2008:
@191H.F. Wolff
If your going to revise history I suggest you research and examine the true origins of communism, Karl Marx’s ethnic origin (Karl Marx is not his real name), the ethnic component of communist groups by country and how the revolution was financed and organised in Russia.
I take it you know about the Frankfurt school?
If you’re looking at post WW1 Germany I would look into the Frankfurt school.
Social psychologist Kevin MacDonald has done some excellent research and wrote a series of books on these subjects.
199 Comment by Marko K. on 2 August 2008:
It’s no surprise all these bad things are happening in Serbia – Kosovo, results of elections, Karadzic – when the spineless coward in Russia, Putin is doing nothing. His Russian people are attacked in South Ossetia and there is no response from the Russian gov’t! Let’s hope that these events precipitate change in Russia and show Putin for the fraud that he is.
And I agree with some of the people here. Israel should absolutely not be considered a friend of Serbia. Jewish people have played a far too large role in bringing war to Serbs and have ignored all the suffering we have been through. I have no sympathy for them.
200 Comment by H.F. Wolff on 2 August 2008:
@193 James
Thanks for your referral to Dr. MacDonald. I have read excerpts of his writings… Will read more.
As to my revising history, I only wish to know what really happened, and I am sick and tired of being lied to by politicians, the media, and pundits.
Fortunately or unfortunately depending on one’s point of view, every time I seriously read up on various issues and crimes the Germans were supposed to have committed, I find that either the accusations are completely false or, that there is no documentary, scientific, or forensic evidence, to support various accusations. Furthermore, in Europe any questioning or scientific investigation into these allegations lands one in prison.
Then I read of the Soviet Gulag, British concentration camps during the Boer war, American and Canadian camps for the Japanese and others and , finally, the books by Baque (sp.?) regarding the treatment of German soldiers and civilians after the war.
All this combined with the brutal treatment of the Palestinians while the world watches and does nothing, the war in Iraq and Lebanon, and now the pounding of the war drums for Iran, puts me in the frame of mind of asking: “Where have I seen this sort of thing before”?
As to all those ‘eye witnesses’ swearing to having seen these occurrences; I have read some of this testimony and found it to be scientifically in error, or impossible. (I earn my living in one of the hard sciences). Even the Israeli Supreme Court dismissed all eye witness testimony when it found “Ivan the Terrible” innocent; and he is still being persecuted by the USA judiciary.
In a court of law eye witness testimony is given the lowest credence, well below documentary and forensic evidence.
If my questioning all that passes as ‘conventional wisdom’ makes me a revisionist, so be it. I can live with it, and I happen to sleep very well, thank you.
I just remembered: This forum is for questioning conventional wisdom, isn’t it??? Also, could you provide a thumbnail sketch of the Frankfurt school? I have heard of it I am sure but I don’t recall in what context.
Thanks.
H.F. Wolff
201 Comment by james on 2 August 2008:
@195H.F. Wolff
If you want to know what’s going on just now you don’t need to go as far back as WW2 you just need to examine what happened in the Balkans in the 90’s.
Andy Wilcoxson covered the Milosevic trail and wrote articles covering the preceding.
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/hague.htm
You’ll have to scroll down the page to read the trail articles as the site also covers events after his death on March 11 2006.
There is amazing similarities to what the Hague tribuneral accused Milosevic of doing to Kosovo Albanians and what the western powers accused the Nazis of doing after WW2.
They accused Milosevic of issuing a secret verbal command to kill Albanians yet would not allow Serb radio transitions to be submitted as evidence, eye witness accounts like Racak that turned out to be false, even star witnesses like Paddy Ashdown flat out lied.
When mass graves were exhumed in Kosovo and found to be KLA terrorists killed fighting Serb forces the court alleged that civilian bodies were transported to Belgrade and cremated.
@194Marko K
How come in any of your posts you dont critisize the US as they are the ones who pushed for Kosovo independence?
202 Comment by Marko K. on 3 August 2008:
@196 james
Practically everyone here knows what a rotten state the US is in. There is no point in me repeating it. America is hopeless.
But it’s very disappointing that Russia, one of the few countries capable of stopping the US in Kosovo or South Ossetia, is doing nothing. I just don’t see enough people calling out Putin or putting pressure on him. If we want to see Russia truly develop into what it’s capable of being, the Russian people have to stand up against Putin and elect a truly patriotic government. I had some hopes for Putin earlier but it’s quite obvious now why Yeltsin supported him.
203 Comment by james on 3 August 2008:
@197Marko K.
“I just don’t see enough people calling out Putin or putting pressure on him”
You obviously haven’t been watching the news, reading newspapers and websites for the past 8 years or watching the presidential debates in the US.
Even when Time magazine named him the person of the year the photographs and accompanying article wasn’t very flattering.
Although most people claim not to like US foreign policy in reality, I think yourself included deep down support it but just not the overt means by which they go about it.
People would rather the US support proxies to fight there wars and blame there financial woes on trade deficits to China rather than global wars and military installations in foreign countries.
It’s the same with left wingers who complain of major international companies hiring slave labour in 3rd world countries. forming groups to moan and complain about it. but never actually doing any concrete action to tackle it like raise funds to hire a lawyer to represent 3rd world employees in European courts. They know if they did and workers were given higher salaries and lower working hours that would affect the economies of the EU and the US.
204 Pingback by News | Serbian Unity Congress » Karadzic and the Anti-Serbs, The Trumpet on 4 August 2008:
[...] wanted peace; Serb crimes are bad and justly exaggerated, Muslim crimes are understandable” (July 22, emphasis mine [...]
205 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 4 August 2008:
If Dr. Karadzic remains alive long enough to stand the trial in The Hague then he’ll have an opportunity to present also the evidence against Clinton / NATO gang. As Andy Wilcoxson put it:
RADOVAN KARADZIC IN COURT: ENEMIES OF SERBIA BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR
…”If Radovan Karadzic marshals the evidence already on record at the Tribunal, and if he supplements it with the documents and evidence that undoubtedly came into his possession as the President of the Bosnian Serbs he will burry his opposition. The people who are pointing their smug, self-righteous, fingers at him today could very well regret the day they ever put him on trial. Then again, his accusers have been dishonest from day one they will probably keep repeating their story no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary. They’ve been lying to us for sixteen years and there’s no reason to believe they’ll stop now. It is time to call these people out and start applying some common sense to our understanding of the Bosnian war. “
206 Comment by DaveP on 4 August 2008:
Dear Dr Trifkovic
The London Times has this story
How Karadzic stirred global Islamic terror
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4453728.ece
The depth of ignorance is hard to beat.
The Times does not allow much space for an adequate response. I do believe though that you should respond to the Times directly as a letter to the Editor.
207 Comment by Marko K. on 4 August 2008:
@203 James
I absolutely do not support US foreign policy and am strongly against pro-Western parties in Sebia. This is the third time you’ve thrown wild accusations at me. Nobody will take you seriously if you continue debating like that so learn to stop.
When I was referring to criticizing Putin, I was talking about Russians and Serbs, not the Western media. I know the Western media was critical of him but they seemed to have slowed down with that for clear reasons.
The reality is that Putin and Medvedev are no better than Tadic. Other than threatening with the veto, they have done nothing to help Serbs in Kosovo. As a matter of fact, as I said in a comment on a previous article, they have done a number of harmful actions towards. They have supported the terrible DS-SPS government and have allowed Kosovo to declare independence, which never would have happened had Russia taken a firm stance.
In recent events in South Ossetia, their own loyal Russian people have been attacked and killed. And Russia’s response has been completely quiet, just as it is now with the Hague and Karadzic. What hope do Serbs have of Russia when the gov’t there ignores their own people who are in big danger.
And this is a few of many weak stands the Russian government has taken. The Western media would like you to believe that Putin is a patriot. That would make things a lot easier for them. With Putin in power, one of the biggest threats to American power is harmless.
208 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 4 August 2008:
Re: # 206
TADIC AND DODIC SHOULD RESPOND OR BE RESPONSIBLE
I believe that proper persons to respond to these kind of accusations are PM of the Republic of Srpska and President of the Republic of Serbia.
In fact, it is high time that some/ or all of Serbian (and Bosnin Serbs) diplomatic representatives and authorities take on these dreadful accusations against Serbian People.
209 Comment by james on 4 August 2008:
@207Marko K.
I don’t understand exactly what you want Russia to do?
“I absolutely do not support US foreign policy and am strongly against pro-Western parties in Serbia”
You say you oppose US foreign policy in Serbia but I have never actually seen you write any critical comments exposing US crimes in Kosovo.
You also have never criticize the numerous international jewish organisations, senators and lobby groups who supported the Bosnians and the Kosovars.
You have never commented on George Soros either.
The only country to offer any counter balance to Kosovo aggression is Russia, yet you would have us believe that Russia is a Trojan horse.
Why would Russia not seriously oppose Kosovo independence the Chechen mafia has a base there, operating freely with the protection of NATO. Start in 1997 Chechen warlords started buying up property in Kosovo on Serb land and fought alongside the KLA against the Serbs.
The Serbs voted and supported the Tadic government so in regards to Kosovo Russia can only go so far. In most parts Tadic has snubbed Russia in favour of the EU and the west. Why should Russia stick its neck out over Kosovo if the Serb government themselves wont make it a issue
“allowed Kosovo to declare independence, which never would have happened had Russia taken a firm stance”
Russia did take a firm stance against Kosovo, in fact it was the premier country to oppose it.
“In recent events in South Ossetia, their own loyal Russian people have been attacked and killed”
The US and there international media ambassador John McCain have threatened war against Russia if they interfere in South Ossetia. Russia’s not going to fall into the same trap as the Germans did over the Denzig massacres.
Public opinion as it is and the constant barrage of media criticism Putin = Satan a full scale assault on Russia would have mass public support.
I’m not completely convinced you’re not supporting some others group agenda like @Slim who said Serbs and Israelis are natural allies yet negates the fact that Zionist politicians, journalist and organisations were at the forefront of sponsoring the assault against Serbia. I noticed this tactic before in other blogs and movements historically in the US when individuals sow the seeds of subversion.
210 Comment by Marko K. on 4 August 2008:
@209 james
Why should I comment here about the US? Dr. Trifkovic and others do a wonderful job at exposing them. The majority of people who comment here are aware of how evil the US government is. Besides, I rarely comment here except when I’m compelled to.
You seem to be underestimating Russia’s power. America would never dare touch Russia and would not for a second consider any sort of military action against them. It would be suicide for them and the end of their empire (not that the day isn’t coming soon). America won’t touch Iran, let alone Russia.
If Russia firmly said “Absolutely no, Kosovo can not declare independence or we’ll bring our troops there to defend the Serbs against any aggression,” it would be the end of any independence talk. Likewise if they said “Any attack on South Ossetia or Abkhazia will be treated as an attack on Russia,” then we would not be hearing about people getting killed there. Countries like Iran, North Korea, Venezuela routinely stand up to America with no consequences. China, unlike Russia, takes steps against America and isn’t all talk. But of course for Putin to do this it would require him to grow a spine which we can’t expect from Yeltsin’s buddy.
(Maybe you can see now that I’m criticizing him for exactly the opposite reasons the Western media was.)
Serbs did not vote for Tadic. The parties that campaigned for Serbia’s national interests won the majority of the votes. In the end, with the help of Russia and primarily the West, Tadic and his people managed to form the terrible DS-SPS government. Let me remind you and others that the first place after the elections where SPS leader Ivica Dacic went was Moscow. DS official Bozidar Djelic also went to Moscow and signed some business deals before the new government was finalized. And finally let’s not forgot that Russia not once supported the SRS or DSS-NS but instead gave support to the illegal SAA signing by Tadic which confused Serbs and won him many votes in the end!
Let me clarify though that in spite of all this, I still encourage closest ties possible between Serbia and Russia because as bad as Putin is, he still doesn’t even come close to the US and EU. When I criticize the governments in Serbia and Russia, it’s because I think there is hope for better. USA and Israel however are hopeless. Nothing can be done now for them to avoid collapse. I’ve completely given up on them.
One final thing – I agree with you about the Jewish role in the Bolshevik Revolution, Yeltsin’s Russia, or in current day America and I wish more people spoke out about it.
211 Comment by james on 4 August 2008:
@210Marko K.
You could comment on the numerous international jewish organisations, senators and lobby groups who supported the Bosnians and the Kosovars. That never get discussed as a topic by Chronicles
I think because you think Russia is the largest country in the world and has nuclear weapons it has power. It doesn’t
Although rising its economy is comparable to that of Canada and hugh land masses of Siberia are under populated
Russia has no power to exert. It imports a vast majority of its food from EU and US due to its legacy western marxist applied economic failure of collective farming.
Proof that Russia has no power is that western backed chechen terrorism has killed tens of thousands of Russian civilians and the entire ethnic Russian population 150,000 of Chechnya most of which was historical Russian land was given to the chechens during communist times by Khrushchev has been ethnically cleansed.
There on the CIA payroll through the NED the self styled foreign minister is even a resident honorary scholar at NED which full benefits like free health care, research grants, etc.
The main propagandist and PR relations man for the chechens in the US is a jewish professor and Jamestown Foundation director Glen Howard.
Despite Russian objections the US transported all the militants from Afghanistan to the Panski Gorge in Georgia.
Russia could have had influence in Afghanistan being the No1 financier of the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance but a day before 9/11 its leader was killed in a suicide bomb attack and Afghanistan’s new president is a US puppet and former Taliban commander Hamid Karzia
212 Comment by Marko K. on 5 August 2008:
Russia is certainly much more powerful than Iran. Despite posing a huge threat to their immediate interests in the Middle East, America and Israel won’t touch Iran. The same can be said for North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba who also have not been attacked despite their provocations (which can be attributed mainly to their allies).
The people ruling America are cowards. They only target weak countries like Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan when they are vulnerable but they would never consider any military action against Russia unless they have the whole world fighting for them. They struggle in Iraq, and you honestly believe they would even entertain the idea of touching Russia?!
You’re either highly overestimating the US or underestimating Russia if you think they’re not capable of standing up for their direct interests in Serbia and the former USSR. Putin would like you to believe that so he can get away with doing nothing.
213 Comment by james on 5 August 2008:
@212Marko K.
What about NATO at all its borders and the”missile defence shield”.
As I stated before the US has and is attacking Russia by proxy.
Numerous NGOs operate in Russia trying to overthrough Putin.
The only real defence Russia has is nuclear.
The scenario would be the same as in Kosovo were islamic militant cells attack using chemical and biological weapons.
When there proxies are done killing Russians the US puts its troops on the ground as “peacekeepers”.
US’s senior geopolitical strategist Zbignew Brezinski wrote a whole book about it in 98 with the ultimate goal to control the Caspian oil basin and split Russia in 3.
The whole Bin Laden international terrorism network things a farce.
Afghan training camps were set up to train militants to fight Russia.
You don’t think the US will touch Iran?
214 Pingback by Muslim States Back War Crimes Trials, But Not for Muslim Leader « Creeping Sharia on 6 August 2008:
[...] Karadzic’s Arrest: Bosnian Myths Rehashed What really happened in Bosnia? [...]
215 Pingback by Chesler Chronicles » Islamic Imperialism in the Former Yugoslavia on 7 August 2008:
[...] Source http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=673 [...]
216 Comment by Swede on 9 August 2008:
The Swedish FM has written a blog entry in English on the situation in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia which does bear resemblance to both operation storm, Bosnia and the Kosovo issue.
http://carlbildt.wordpress.com/2008/08/09/the-principles-at-stake/
This blog entry is open for comments. People with good arguments can post them on the Bildt blog where they have a good chance of being read by the international elite, which Bildt himself takes active part in (Bilderberg, Trilateral Commission etc).
217 Pingback by News | Serbian Unity Congress » Today’s “Palestinians” Include Bosnians and Albanians, Republican Riot blog (Julia Gorin) on 8 September 2008:
[...] American Jewry lobbied for, here is a snippet about him from Srdja Trifkovic’s recent piece “Karadzic’s Arrest: Bosnian Myths Rehashed“: Already as a young man during World War II, Izetbegovic was a member of the Young Muslims [...]
218 Pingback by Chronicles Magazine, September 2008 « Panther Red on 24 September 2008:
[...] Lefalcon’s idol Srdja Trifkovic takes the arrest of Radovan Karadzic as an opportunity to relate the recent history of the Balkans, demonstrating the plain falsity of much of the anti-Serb mythology Westerners have been fed since 1991. Read a slightly different version of Trifkovic’s article here. [...]