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	<title>Comments on: Out With the Old</title>
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	<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/</link>
	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: David Wegenke</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-171066</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wegenke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 17:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-171066</guid>
		<description>Wonderful article...keep up the great work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful article...keep up the great work!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168878</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168878</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is not your grandfather&#039;s church.&quot;
He is right.  She belongs to Christ.  It appears that Mr. Kiesch­nick has chosen to act as if it is his own.  James 3:1.

Lavish Church Growth ads in &quot;USA Today&quot; and ugly billboards are not reaching postmoderns.  They waste many dollars.  iPod audio (Issues Etc.) podcasts did and do reach postmoderns.  If the goal is to reduce the number of souls in the pews... well, just look at the numbers and you will see their successes.

Word and Sacraments build souls.  Beyond the much improved hymnal, what Synod-wide action to help us in the pews is helping churches with W&amp;S?  

Evangelism is important.  I shudder to think of it in their CG-terms, but Youtube-style short-videos would be a good investment for confessional Christianity.  Any takers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"This is not your grandfather's church."<br />
He is right.  She belongs to Christ.  It appears that Mr. Kiesch­nick has chosen to act as if it is his own.  James 3:1.</p>
<p>Lavish Church Growth ads in "USA Today" and ugly billboards are not reaching postmoderns.  They waste many dollars.  iPod audio (Issues Etc.) podcasts did and do reach postmoderns.  If the goal is to reduce the number of souls in the pews... well, just look at the numbers and you will see their successes.</p>
<p>Word and Sacraments build souls.  Beyond the much improved hymnal, what Synod-wide action to help us in the pews is helping churches with W&amp;S?  </p>
<p>Evangelism is important.  I shudder to think of it in their CG-terms, but Youtube-style short-videos would be a good investment for confessional Christianity.  Any takers?</p>
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		<title>By: Lynne</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168824</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168824</guid>
		<description>I have worked at the LCMS IC for over ten (10) years in a department that deals with the entire Synod.  The level of financial abuse that I have seen is criminal (literaly).  I can honestly assure Chad, who posted earlier, that his gifts are not used in any ficially responsible way, at least on a regular basis.  

Obviously there are many bright spots in the LCMS overall, but for the most part, good steward&#039;s are few and far between.  One of the usual mantra&#039;s chanted at the IC is &quot;it&#039;s not my money, why should I care.&quot;  I have heard this on a weekly basis from someone consistantly since I have been there.  

Abuses range from the small (no acutal travel expense policy so anything goes while traveling - $500 dinner for 2 - no problem if the department allows it) to the large (lavish parties at the tirannual Convention and other annual meetings - that cost over $100,000 - entire executive offices redesigned and refurbished since a new director does NOT want to use the same restroom, furniture, etc...as the last director).  I could go on and on...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have worked at the LCMS IC for over ten (10) years in a department that deals with the entire Synod.  The level of financial abuse that I have seen is criminal (literaly).  I can honestly assure Chad, who posted earlier, that his gifts are not used in any ficially responsible way, at least on a regular basis.  </p>
<p>Obviously there are many bright spots in the LCMS overall, but for the most part, good steward's are few and far between.  One of the usual mantra's chanted at the IC is "it's not my money, why should I care."  I have heard this on a weekly basis from someone consistantly since I have been there.  </p>
<p>Abuses range from the small (no acutal travel expense policy so anything goes while traveling - $500 dinner for 2 - no problem if the department allows it) to the large (lavish parties at the tirannual Convention and other annual meetings - that cost over $100,000 - entire executive offices redesigned and refurbished since a new director does NOT want to use the same restroom, furniture, etc...as the last director).  I could go on and on...</p>
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		<title>By: QFX</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168736</link>
		<dc:creator>QFX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168736</guid>
		<description>I left the Non-Denoms for LCMS, mostly because of the White Horse Inn Show with Rod Rosenbladt.   Issues Etc was my favorite Radio Podcast &amp; Pr. Todd was truly enjoyable and instructive as a host and apologist.  Issues Etc has, and now will continue to, reach more believers and unbelievers than K-nick will ever do with his schemes.  

As I&#039;ve seen this decline locally and on the National LCMS scene--I&#039;ve despaired of the certain demise of the LCMS.

I will probably join the PCA--at least they observe their Confessions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I left the Non-Denoms for LCMS, mostly because of the White Horse Inn Show with Rod Rosenbladt.   Issues Etc was my favorite Radio Podcast &amp; Pr. Todd was truly enjoyable and instructive as a host and apologist.  Issues Etc has, and now will continue to, reach more believers and unbelievers than K-nick will ever do with his schemes.  </p>
<p>As I've seen this decline locally and on the National LCMS scene--I've despaired of the certain demise of the LCMS.</p>
<p>I will probably join the PCA--at least they observe their Confessions.</p>
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		<title>By: lighthorse</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168717</link>
		<dc:creator>lighthorse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168717</guid>
		<description>Granted, this is not my grandfather&#039;s Church. I have been on this earth for 79 years, Baptized MLHS, re-baptized Catholic (when my parents divorced), was a Catholic, First Communion and Confirmation at age 7. Then became MLHS again when my catholic mother died, in 1936. We have been members of the same congregation since our marriage in 1951, we have been involved, church officers, deacon, elders, altar guild, ladies guild, circles, Sunday School teachers. Today all of this is gone, we nowhave a cabal of Professors running the congregation. From the Lutheran Hymnal 1941, and the Liturgy 5 and 15, we have gone through, at great cost, This Far by Faith, the Schuck and Jive, version, A marriage ceremony, &quot;Jumping the Broom&quot;, a &quot;Prayer for a Mother with a sons on drugs&quot;,  then the Lutheran Book of Worship and now the LBS. Add to that &quot;School Choice&quot;,  what was once a Christian Lutheran Day School we now have a baby-sitting source from K3, to 8th Grade, and for this we get $5316.00 for each student, a million dollars a year in State money. Oh, yes all of the grandfathers who have not gone to Heaven have left, in ten years we have gone from 1400 members to less than 400 and from three services a week to one arbitrary 9:00 a.m. service, and there was never a Vote, we no longer have Voter&#039;s meetings, the Cabal picks like thinking people for every office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Granted, this is not my grandfather's Church. I have been on this earth for 79 years, Baptized MLHS, re-baptized Catholic (when my parents divorced), was a Catholic, First Communion and Confirmation at age 7. Then became MLHS again when my catholic mother died, in 1936. We have been members of the same congregation since our marriage in 1951, we have been involved, church officers, deacon, elders, altar guild, ladies guild, circles, Sunday School teachers. Today all of this is gone, we nowhave a cabal of Professors running the congregation. From the Lutheran Hymnal 1941, and the Liturgy 5 and 15, we have gone through, at great cost, This Far by Faith, the Schuck and Jive, version, A marriage ceremony, "Jumping the Broom", a "Prayer for a Mother with a sons on drugs",  then the Lutheran Book of Worship and now the LBS. Add to that "School Choice",  what was once a Christian Lutheran Day School we now have a baby-sitting source from K3, to 8th Grade, and for this we get $5316.00 for each student, a million dollars a year in State money. Oh, yes all of the grandfathers who have not gone to Heaven have left, in ten years we have gone from 1400 members to less than 400 and from three services a week to one arbitrary 9:00 a.m. service, and there was never a Vote, we no longer have Voter's meetings, the Cabal picks like thinking people for every office.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolf on Controversy in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod &#171; The Vermont Traditionalist</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168713</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolf on Controversy in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod &#171; The Vermont Traditionalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168713</guid>
		<description>[...] http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#more-659 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#more-659" rel="nofollow">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#more-659</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168661</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168661</guid>
		<description>Just a quick thought-- it&#039;s not Lutheranism we&#039;re fighting for.  Luther fought for the Gospel, and the historic expression of catholic, orthodox Christianity.  As long as redeemed sinner/saints gather around Word and Sacrament, Luther&#039;s fight is still on for radically exposing the grace of Christ in the Gospel to a world which so desperately needs it.

I am not a Lutheran because of my German heritage, or because it is an interesting cultural phenomenon.  Frankly, I often tell my friends that being a Lutheran can be a miserable experience, full of suffering-- we are, from our genesis, a call to repentance and faithfulness to the Church Catholic.  We are not Protestants, nor are we the bland, lowest common denominator Evangelicals of American reknown.  We are catholic Christians, grounded in Scripture and the confessions and the creeds, rivitted on Christ and the Cross... and as such, we will often be a spurned minority.

We don&#039;t cast aspersions on other Christians, regardless of the quantity of errors that possess their communions, but we do bear witness to the truth, regardless of whom we meet.  Ours is a lonely road, long and narrow, and with fewer travellers than the broader roads out there.  Let us not tire of either our mission, nor our journey.

In Christ,
Brad</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a quick thought-- it's not Lutheranism we're fighting for.  Luther fought for the Gospel, and the historic expression of catholic, orthodox Christianity.  As long as redeemed sinner/saints gather around Word and Sacrament, Luther's fight is still on for radically exposing the grace of Christ in the Gospel to a world which so desperately needs it.</p>
<p>I am not a Lutheran because of my German heritage, or because it is an interesting cultural phenomenon.  Frankly, I often tell my friends that being a Lutheran can be a miserable experience, full of suffering-- we are, from our genesis, a call to repentance and faithfulness to the Church Catholic.  We are not Protestants, nor are we the bland, lowest common denominator Evangelicals of American reknown.  We are catholic Christians, grounded in Scripture and the confessions and the creeds, rivitted on Christ and the Cross... and as such, we will often be a spurned minority.</p>
<p>We don't cast aspersions on other Christians, regardless of the quantity of errors that possess their communions, but we do bear witness to the truth, regardless of whom we meet.  Ours is a lonely road, long and narrow, and with fewer travellers than the broader roads out there.  Let us not tire of either our mission, nor our journey.</p>
<p>In Christ,<br />
Brad</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168596</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 05:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168596</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s pretty much dead alright Another 2 generations of politically correct rule and it will be all but extinguished.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's pretty much dead alright Another 2 generations of politically correct rule and it will be all but extinguished.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebellious Pastor's Wife</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168574</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebellious Pastor's Wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 19:42:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168574</guid>
		<description>Great article.

Mr. Bruce,

Lutheranism is not dead.  It is flowing through the pages of the Bible and through the Sacraments, and still lives in the confessions that are recorded in the Book of Concord.  It lives in us today.  A congregation may be dead.  Many congregations may be dead.  But Jesus warned us that would be the case.   John&#039;s Revelation warns us that would be the case.  The evils you write about happened in the ancient Church (1st Corinthians), in the Middle Ages, in the Reformation, and will always be happening.  It will get worse.

Don&#039;t sacrifice a good beautiful doctrine for the show.  Lutheranism isn&#039;t bad because we have people in our congregations who dont&#039; believe and who have handed themselves over to sin.  The fact that they are not disciplined is very concerning.  But it doesn&#039;t mean that what Lutheranism is, truly is, has declined.  It most definitely hasn&#039;t.

And for the person that asked about WELS and ELS, I&#039;m not the author, but here is my perspective.  They have their problems as well.  Their doctrine on the divine call is not very good, and they are abandoning the liturgy for contemporary worship in droves.  Pietism -- labeling something as a sin that is not, or making something a requirement of righteousness that is not is also something else that they struggle with.  I&#039;ve attended both and have family in the ELS.  Out of all the major Lutheran church bodies, the LCMS, despite all of her struggles, is still the closest to the teachings in the Book of Concord and still the most devoted to the proper separation of Law and Gospel.  I&#039;ll leave when that can no longer be said.   While she is still fighting for her confession, I don&#039;t consider leaving to be an option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article.</p>
<p>Mr. Bruce,</p>
<p>Lutheranism is not dead.  It is flowing through the pages of the Bible and through the Sacraments, and still lives in the confessions that are recorded in the Book of Concord.  It lives in us today.  A congregation may be dead.  Many congregations may be dead.  But Jesus warned us that would be the case.   John's Revelation warns us that would be the case.  The evils you write about happened in the ancient Church (1st Corinthians), in the Middle Ages, in the Reformation, and will always be happening.  It will get worse.</p>
<p>Don't sacrifice a good beautiful doctrine for the show.  Lutheranism isn't bad because we have people in our congregations who dont' believe and who have handed themselves over to sin.  The fact that they are not disciplined is very concerning.  But it doesn't mean that what Lutheranism is, truly is, has declined.  It most definitely hasn't.</p>
<p>And for the person that asked about WELS and ELS, I'm not the author, but here is my perspective.  They have their problems as well.  Their doctrine on the divine call is not very good, and they are abandoning the liturgy for contemporary worship in droves.  Pietism -- labeling something as a sin that is not, or making something a requirement of righteousness that is not is also something else that they struggle with.  I've attended both and have family in the ELS.  Out of all the major Lutheran church bodies, the LCMS, despite all of her struggles, is still the closest to the teachings in the Book of Concord and still the most devoted to the proper separation of Law and Gospel.  I'll leave when that can no longer be said.   While she is still fighting for her confession, I don't consider leaving to be an option.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/07/02/out-with-the-old/comment-page-1/#comment-168573</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=659#comment-168573</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re looking for 100% pure Christianity, good luck finding it anywhere on the face of the earth.  Even while reading the scriptures bring along our own history and concepts to taint the true Word of God.  The article and the commenters previous to me clearly desire pure Christianaity.

Keishnick isn&#039;t an idiot and he&#039;s not surrounded by idiots...  so there must be something to what he says.  My take on what he says is more like. &#039;It&#039;s not my Grandfather&#039;s generation that the church needs to reach out to&#039;.   Everyone &#039;used&#039; to belong to a church, it was a matter of getting them to show up once in a while.  It&#039;s not that way anymore.  People like Robert Bruce in the comments before me want to see genuineness and relevance.  Though I love liturgy, even I am not genuine in saying it and they become menotanous.  Though I love hymns, they often are played or sung poorly and lose relevance with my grandfathers (and fathers) grandchildren.

I would love to see &#039;Traditional Conservatism&#039; make a concerted come-back.  There are lots of churches that are trying to maintain it, but it&#039;s a poor attempt.  Until I see it have life, I&#039;ll continue to attend a church with genuineness &amp; relevance there there may not be 100% pure christianity, but it beats the streets where there&#039;s 0%.  Thank God salvation is a personal thing, not corporate!

The moneygrubbing thing is something I&#039;m still working through too...  if I could wire my gifts directly to God, I might be a little less hesitant when the offering plate comes by.  :)  About all I can do is pray that my gifts only go to areas in the church that are genuine and relevant... then it&#039;s up to God to make them go there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you're looking for 100% pure Christianity, good luck finding it anywhere on the face of the earth.  Even while reading the scriptures bring along our own history and concepts to taint the true Word of God.  The article and the commenters previous to me clearly desire pure Christianaity.</p>
<p>Keishnick isn't an idiot and he's not surrounded by idiots...  so there must be something to what he says.  My take on what he says is more like. 'It's not my Grandfather's generation that the church needs to reach out to'.   Everyone 'used' to belong to a church, it was a matter of getting them to show up once in a while.  It's not that way anymore.  People like Robert Bruce in the comments before me want to see genuineness and relevance.  Though I love liturgy, even I am not genuine in saying it and they become menotanous.  Though I love hymns, they often are played or sung poorly and lose relevance with my grandfathers (and fathers) grandchildren.</p>
<p>I would love to see 'Traditional Conservatism' make a concerted come-back.  There are lots of churches that are trying to maintain it, but it's a poor attempt.  Until I see it have life, I'll continue to attend a church with genuineness &amp; relevance there there may not be 100% pure christianity, but it beats the streets where there's 0%.  Thank God salvation is a personal thing, not corporate!</p>
<p>The moneygrubbing thing is something I'm still working through too...  if I could wire my gifts directly to God, I might be a little less hesitant when the offering plate comes by.  <img src='http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   About all I can do is pray that my gifts only go to areas in the church that are genuine and relevant... then it's up to God to make them go there.</p>
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