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	<title>Church and Nation: A Credal Nation, Part 2Comments on: --</title>
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	<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/</link>
	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture &#124; Your Home for Traditional Conservatism &#187; Church and Nation: A Credal Nation, Part 3</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-170075</link>
		<dc:creator>Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture &#124; Your Home for Traditional Conservatism &#187; Church and Nation: A Credal Nation, Part 3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-170075</guid>
		<description>[...] by Dr. Fleming and Dr. Trifkovic) lies the concept of credal nationhood. In the previous two installments of &#8220;Church and Nation,&#8221; I have mentioned that credal nationhood makes no sense [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by Dr. Fleming and Dr. Trifkovic) lies the concept of credal nationhood. In the previous two installments of &#8220;Church and Nation,&#8221; I have mentioned that credal nationhood makes no sense [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eunomia &#187; &#8220;Just&#8221; Loyalty To A Place On The Map</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-168141</link>
		<dc:creator>Eunomia &#187; &#8220;Just&#8221; Loyalty To A Place On The Map</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 22:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-168141</guid>
		<description>[...] at the heart of &#8220;credal&#8221; or &#8220;propositional&#8221; nationalism, and reveals the land-plus-ideals patriotism to be a species of the same, and yet it bizarrely sits [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at the heart of &#8220;credal&#8221; or &#8220;propositional&#8221; nationalism, and reveals the land-plus-ideals patriotism to be a species of the same, and yet it bizarrely sits [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Ezzo</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-167379</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Ezzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 02:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-167379</guid>
		<description>If the French Revolution is responsible for modern nationalism, then is it not appropriate to hope the French people are asking the same important questions that Scott Richert and Chronicles are asking here? If they have asked them, what conclusion have they come to?
Perhaps the people who are asking are marginalized enough that we don&#039;t hear about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the French Revolution is responsible for modern nationalism, then is it not appropriate to hope the French people are asking the same important questions that Scott Richert and Chronicles are asking here? If they have asked them, what conclusion have they come to?<br />
Perhaps the people who are asking are marginalized enough that we don&#8217;t hear about them.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirt Higdon</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-167053</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirt Higdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-167053</guid>
		<description>#25 - Good analysis and well put.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#25 &#8211; Good analysis and well put.</p>
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		<title>By: Allen Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-166794</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-166794</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting to investigate (though it&#039;s probably already been done) how credal states cant truly distinguish between nationalism and internationalism. The French revolution tried to create a credal &#039;nation&#039; on top of a real, organic nation made up of local cultures and identities. Then, it exported it&#039;s creed through military conquest and propaganda. Credal nationalism became internationalist.

Likewise with the credal state, the Soviet Union, but in reverse. Communism, an internationalist creed, eventually had to fall back on a warped patriotism to sustain itself in it&#039;s base of operations even as it continued to export credal revolution worldwide.

The U.S., an artificial political construct upon which a nationalist creed has been superimposed, seeks to export it&#039;s &#039;Americanist&#039; creed through miitary conquest supposedly designed to spread democracy around the globe. The interesting thing here is that, unlike revolutionary France or the Soviet Union, which exported creeds that were mainly political or economic, the Americanist creed is also partly cultural, as it seeks to &#039;Americanise&#039; the world by whatever means, thus proving that it&#039;s internationalism is firmly based on imperial nationalism.

We dont even have to consider how the credal state, National Socialist Germany, tried to create a multinational European order. 

It appears that Calhoun&#039;s statement about there being no difference between centralisation at home and empire abroad is all too true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to investigate (though it&#8217;s probably already been done) how credal states cant truly distinguish between nationalism and internationalism. The French revolution tried to create a credal &#8216;nation&#8217; on top of a real, organic nation made up of local cultures and identities. Then, it exported it&#8217;s creed through military conquest and propaganda. Credal nationalism became internationalist.</p>
<p>Likewise with the credal state, the Soviet Union, but in reverse. Communism, an internationalist creed, eventually had to fall back on a warped patriotism to sustain itself in it&#8217;s base of operations even as it continued to export credal revolution worldwide.</p>
<p>The U.S., an artificial political construct upon which a nationalist creed has been superimposed, seeks to export it&#8217;s &#8216;Americanist&#8217; creed through miitary conquest supposedly designed to spread democracy around the globe. The interesting thing here is that, unlike revolutionary France or the Soviet Union, which exported creeds that were mainly political or economic, the Americanist creed is also partly cultural, as it seeks to &#8216;Americanise&#8217; the world by whatever means, thus proving that it&#8217;s internationalism is firmly based on imperial nationalism.</p>
<p>We dont even have to consider how the credal state, National Socialist Germany, tried to create a multinational European order. </p>
<p>It appears that Calhoun&#8217;s statement about there being no difference between centralisation at home and empire abroad is all too true.</p>
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		<title>By: Allen Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-166740</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 02:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-166740</guid>
		<description>Mr Willson, dont you think you are over reacting just a little?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Willson, dont you think you are over reacting just a little?</p>
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		<title>By: John Willson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-166706</link>
		<dc:creator>John Willson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-166706</guid>
		<description>It gets a little tiresome that every serious issue Scott brings up in this series almost immediately turns into a confederate pitty-party.  Woe is me, Lincoln destroyed, the what?  A fragile union of several nations, is what, and he was a symptom more than a cause.  But that isn&#039;t the point in this discussion, it seems to me.  Yes, Mr. Reavis (#13) Frost made many suggestions about what&#039;s an American, and it boils down to &quot;don&#039;t join too many gangs.&quot;  The several posts that contemptuously refer to Chicago, New York, and other big cities always seem to leave out Houston, Miami, Atlanta, Raleigh-Durham, Birmingham, and all the others that are just like the ones that are supposedly evil dens of oppressive credal nationhood.  On a slightly smaller scale I&#039;m a little more impressed with Syracuse, NY than Columbia, SC; and smaller yet, with Hillsdale, MI than with Holly Springs, MS.  But I would take both Holly Springs AND Hillsdale over any of the metropolises named above.  The worst of all is Washington, DC.  Forrest McDonald once said to me, &quot;Of course there wasn&#039;t an American Revolution--we didn&#039;t have a Paris!&quot;  This is to an enormous extent a city mouse-country-mouse problem, and Frost and I are on the same side in that one.  And what in the world is southern about the south nowadays?  It&#039;s Republican, for goodness sake!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It gets a little tiresome that every serious issue Scott brings up in this series almost immediately turns into a confederate pitty-party.  Woe is me, Lincoln destroyed, the what?  A fragile union of several nations, is what, and he was a symptom more than a cause.  But that isn&#8217;t the point in this discussion, it seems to me.  Yes, Mr. Reavis (#13) Frost made many suggestions about what&#8217;s an American, and it boils down to &#8220;don&#8217;t join too many gangs.&#8221;  The several posts that contemptuously refer to Chicago, New York, and other big cities always seem to leave out Houston, Miami, Atlanta, Raleigh-Durham, Birmingham, and all the others that are just like the ones that are supposedly evil dens of oppressive credal nationhood.  On a slightly smaller scale I&#8217;m a little more impressed with Syracuse, NY than Columbia, SC; and smaller yet, with Hillsdale, MI than with Holly Springs, MS.  But I would take both Holly Springs AND Hillsdale over any of the metropolises named above.  The worst of all is Washington, DC.  Forrest McDonald once said to me, &#8220;Of course there wasn&#8217;t an American Revolution&#8211;we didn&#8217;t have a Paris!&#8221;  This is to an enormous extent a city mouse-country-mouse problem, and Frost and I are on the same side in that one.  And what in the world is southern about the south nowadays?  It&#8217;s Republican, for goodness sake!</p>
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		<title>By: Allen Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-166164</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 07:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-166164</guid>
		<description>I cant help but to agree with Mr van Oosbree. Whatever chance &#039;America&#039; - whatever that is - had of developing into an authentic, organic nationality has been destroyed. The Lincolnite war of aggression and so-called &#039;reconstruction&#039; made it impossible for North and South to ever merge into a single nationality during the 19th century. Then the large scale immigration of roughly 1880-1920 and attempts to impose assimilation made it impossible for any true Yankee nationality to develop independent of the South. The kulturkamph disguised as a &#039;civil rights&#039; crusade made it impossible for an &#039;American&#039; nationality to develop after the second world war, when it might have been possible for Southerner, Yankee, and European catholic ethnic to merge enough culturally to bring about an &#039;American&#039; culture and nationality. Post-1965 immigration and cultural Marxism have finished off any chance of any &#039;American&#039; nationality ever developing in the future.

What cannot be missed is how, in the long run, Southron identity has been reinforced by all this, giving the South a chance to go it&#039;s own way, instead of merging with the North as it might have done had there been no trouble between the two regions. Likewise, the historical development not only has been destructive to any sense of real Northern identity or culture, but even destructive to local and regional identities in the North, such as New England. However, if New England, the Midatlantic, and the Midwest could be cut free as independent republics, I think they would, in time, develop or re-establish real cultural and national identities of their own.

America has never been a &#039;credal&#039; nation, and to think so is delusion, but even so, it is also not really a nation at all, and never has been. It is a political construct, out of which a true culture and nationality might have emerged through shared contacts and history, but failed to do so. Lincoln and his supporters among the cultural imperialists in New England, along with tariff imposing business elites in the Northeast, made what they tried to impose on everyone actually impossible in the end, by tryng to create a false &#039;America&#039; by force rather than letting a real America grow naturally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I cant help but to agree with Mr van Oosbree. Whatever chance &#8216;America&#8217; &#8211; whatever that is &#8211; had of developing into an authentic, organic nationality has been destroyed. The Lincolnite war of aggression and so-called &#8216;reconstruction&#8217; made it impossible for North and South to ever merge into a single nationality during the 19th century. Then the large scale immigration of roughly 1880-1920 and attempts to impose assimilation made it impossible for any true Yankee nationality to develop independent of the South. The kulturkamph disguised as a &#8216;civil rights&#8217; crusade made it impossible for an &#8216;American&#8217; nationality to develop after the second world war, when it might have been possible for Southerner, Yankee, and European catholic ethnic to merge enough culturally to bring about an &#8216;American&#8217; culture and nationality. Post-1965 immigration and cultural Marxism have finished off any chance of any &#8216;American&#8217; nationality ever developing in the future.</p>
<p>What cannot be missed is how, in the long run, Southron identity has been reinforced by all this, giving the South a chance to go it&#8217;s own way, instead of merging with the North as it might have done had there been no trouble between the two regions. Likewise, the historical development not only has been destructive to any sense of real Northern identity or culture, but even destructive to local and regional identities in the North, such as New England. However, if New England, the Midatlantic, and the Midwest could be cut free as independent republics, I think they would, in time, develop or re-establish real cultural and national identities of their own.</p>
<p>America has never been a &#8216;credal&#8217; nation, and to think so is delusion, but even so, it is also not really a nation at all, and never has been. It is a political construct, out of which a true culture and nationality might have emerged through shared contacts and history, but failed to do so. Lincoln and his supporters among the cultural imperialists in New England, along with tariff imposing business elites in the Northeast, made what they tried to impose on everyone actually impossible in the end, by tryng to create a false &#8216;America&#8217; by force rather than letting a real America grow naturally.</p>
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		<title>By: Theodore Van Oosbree</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-164534</link>
		<dc:creator>Theodore Van Oosbree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-164534</guid>
		<description>I never thought much in my youth whether America was a nation or not; I just took for granted that I and the people around me were Americans without any further analysis. It is different now, especially for those of us who live in states significantly affected by post-1965 immigration. Many (or most) of the inhabitants are not like us anymore. Many of them do not consider themselves to be Americans and they are correct to think so. The bottom is out of the tub. I doubt we are a credal nation now or a nation of any sort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never thought much in my youth whether America was a nation or not; I just took for granted that I and the people around me were Americans without any further analysis. It is different now, especially for those of us who live in states significantly affected by post-1965 immigration. Many (or most) of the inhabitants are not like us anymore. Many of them do not consider themselves to be Americans and they are correct to think so. The bottom is out of the tub. I doubt we are a credal nation now or a nation of any sort.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Hall</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/06/05/church-and-nation-a-credal-nation-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-164281</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 06:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=609#comment-164281</guid>
		<description>In all honesty, the &quot;American nation&quot; is lost within the Frankfurt School of Marxism and it&#039;s multiculturalism.  Modern America is the outgrowth of what founded it: Revolution.

The &quot;American nation&quot; died when it became prevalent to set Southern Scot against Southern Black against Midwestern German against Louisiana Cajun.

That is, to reiterate my point: the American nation was destroyed with the Whiggish Reconstruction.

And it can never be reclaimed.  To this day, to be an &quot;American&quot; is to submit to the Whiggish vision of America international imperialism; and modern American &quot;multiculturalism&quot; is an assault upon Jacksonian Democracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In all honesty, the &#8220;American nation&#8221; is lost within the Frankfurt School of Marxism and it&#8217;s multiculturalism.  Modern America is the outgrowth of what founded it: Revolution.</p>
<p>The &#8220;American nation&#8221; died when it became prevalent to set Southern Scot against Southern Black against Midwestern German against Louisiana Cajun.</p>
<p>That is, to reiterate my point: the American nation was destroyed with the Whiggish Reconstruction.</p>
<p>And it can never be reclaimed.  To this day, to be an &#8220;American&#8221; is to submit to the Whiggish vision of America international imperialism; and modern American &#8220;multiculturalism&#8221; is an assault upon Jacksonian Democracy.</p>
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