Comments on: Polycarp http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/ Your home for traditional conservatism. Thu, 24 May 2012 03:20:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: woodcutter http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/comment-page-1/#comment-158423 woodcutter Thu, 29 May 2008 10:37:59 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=598#comment-158423 Dr.Flemming, just a note before I head of to the woods, Polycarps instruction for prayer is indeed something strange in the eyes of todays North Americans. Today people pray and practice new age stuff to heal themselves. Polycarps instructions (I think) are for the healing of the Body of Christ ( that we are members of ). This would be a totally foreign concept to most. Most of the people I meet are mostly concerned about them selves. Even Christians tend to pray for healing in regards to themselves first. Martyrdom would be blasphemy in todays society as well (unless there is personal gain). Dr.Flemming, just a note before I head of to the woods, Polycarps instruction for prayer is indeed something strange in the eyes of todays North Americans. Today people pray and practice new age stuff to heal themselves. Polycarps instructions (I think) are for the healing of the Body of Christ ( that we are members of ). This would be a totally foreign concept to most. Most of the people I meet are mostly concerned about them selves. Even Christians tend to pray for healing in regards to themselves first. Martyrdom would be blasphemy in todays society as well (unless there is personal gain).

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/comment-page-1/#comment-157684 TJF Wed, 28 May 2008 15:23:48 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=598#comment-157684 In emulating the patience of the martyrs, the Philippians should be merciful in dealing with a bad presbyter and his wife, who apparently are afflicted with avarice. (At this point, obviously, a married man could become a presbyter, though that does not necessarily imply that a presbyter could marry or that a presbyter and his wife continued to have conjugal relations, though I think it more probable in this case, since they two are treated as a couple.) In conclusion, Polycarp tells them to avoid anger, pray for the saints and "pray also for the emperors/kings and for all the powers and princes and 'for those who persecute you and hate you' and for 'the enemies of the cross." Note that the rulers are put first in a special category, though there can be little doubt that they are also among the persecutors. Like Paul and Clement, Polycarp can distinguish between the character of the ruler, who might persecute Christians, and his divinely appointed office. There is not only no trace of civil disobedience or liberation theology but not even a hint of disrespect for the Empire. What a contrast this is with so many modern Christians, left and right, who are always assuming the right to condemn or depose governments on Scriptural or theological grounds. I wonder sometimes if such people bother to obey traffic signals put up by the sinful godless state. In emulating the patience of the martyrs, the Philippians should be merciful in dealing with a bad presbyter and his wife, who apparently are afflicted with avarice. (At this point, obviously, a married man could become a presbyter, though that does not necessarily imply that a presbyter could marry or that a presbyter and his wife continued to have conjugal relations, though I think it more probable in this case, since they two are treated as a couple.)

In conclusion, Polycarp tells them to avoid anger, pray for the saints and "pray also for the emperors/kings and for all the powers and princes and 'for those who persecute you and hate you' and for 'the enemies of the cross." Note that the rulers are put first in a special category, though there can be little doubt that they are also among the persecutors. Like Paul and Clement, Polycarp can distinguish between the character of the ruler, who might persecute Christians, and his divinely appointed office. There is not only no trace of civil disobedience or liberation theology but not even a hint of disrespect for the Empire. What a contrast this is with so many modern Christians, left and right, who are always assuming the right to condemn or depose governments on Scriptural or theological grounds. I wonder sometimes if such people bother to obey traffic signals put up by the sinful godless state.

]]> By: robert reavis http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/comment-page-1/#comment-156943 robert reavis Tue, 27 May 2008 19:18:58 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=598#comment-156943 I urge you in the grace wherewith you are clothed to press on in your race, and to urge all men to be saved. Assert your office with all diligence of flesh and spirit.[1] Give heed unto union, for there is nothing better. Bear all men, as the Lord also bears you.[2] Suffer all men in love, as indeed you do suffer them. Devote yourself to unceasing prayers. Ask for greater understanding than you have. Be watchful, possessing a wakeful spirit. Speak to each man individually after God's way.[3] Bear the infirmities of all men, as a perfect athlete.[4] Where there is more toil there is greater gain. The Saints seem always to say the same things. These are simple yet difficult truths to practice. My favorite, and one I hear mentioned many times over and over again by those who have listened to, or been presense of sanctity is "Speak to each man individually after God's way." One cannot pretend to any of these virtues, they do indeed separate the wheat from the chaff or the acquired habits from supernatural grace. IMO I urge you in the grace wherewith you are clothed to press on in your race, and to urge all men to be saved. Assert your office with all diligence of flesh and spirit.[1] Give heed unto union, for there is nothing better. Bear all men, as the Lord also bears you.[2] Suffer all men in love, as indeed you do suffer them. Devote yourself to unceasing prayers. Ask for greater understanding than you have. Be watchful, possessing a wakeful spirit. Speak to each man individually after God's way.[3] Bear the infirmities of all men, as a perfect athlete.[4] Where there is more toil there is greater gain.

The Saints seem always to say the same things. These are simple yet difficult truths to practice. My favorite, and one I hear mentioned many times over and over again by those who have listened to, or been presense of sanctity is "Speak to each man individually after God's way."
One cannot pretend to any of these virtues, they do indeed separate the wheat from the chaff or the
acquired habits from supernatural grace. IMO

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/comment-page-1/#comment-156774 TJF Tue, 27 May 2008 14:18:11 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=598#comment-156774 Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians has a strange textual history. We have only part of it in Greek and the rest in a Latin translation. It is certainly genuine, having been cited by his pupil Irenaeus, but, according to one theory, it might really be two epistles written some 20 years apart. Much of it is moral exhortation of the type we are familiar with from Clement, whose epistle he cites. In doctrine, we meet with little that is new. Against the heretics, Polycarp maintains the reality of Christ's death on the Cross and he condemns those who deny the crucifixion, resurrection and judgment as the first-born of Satan. Like Paul and Peter and Ignatius, who had preached charity to him, he is adamant on the importance of giving alms to the poor (10). Polycarp upholds the examples of the glorious martyrs: Zosimus and Rufus (probably martyred in Rome with Ignatius), Ignatius, Paul and the other martyred Apostles. Martyrs are "with the Lord, with whom they suffered, in the place that is their due. Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians has a strange textual history. We have only part of it in Greek and the rest in a Latin translation. It is certainly genuine, having been cited by his pupil Irenaeus, but, according to one theory, it might really be two epistles written some 20 years apart. Much of it is moral exhortation of the type we are familiar with from Clement, whose epistle he cites. In doctrine, we meet with little that is new. Against the heretics, Polycarp maintains the reality of Christ's death on the Cross and he condemns those who deny the crucifixion, resurrection and judgment as the first-born of Satan. Like Paul and Peter and Ignatius, who had preached charity to him, he is adamant on the importance of giving alms to the poor (10).

Polycarp upholds the examples of the glorious martyrs: Zosimus and Rufus (probably martyred in Rome with Ignatius), Ignatius, Paul and the other martyred Apostles. Martyrs are "with the Lord, with whom they suffered, in the place that is their due.

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/comment-page-1/#comment-156754 TJF Tue, 27 May 2008 13:37:12 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=598#comment-156754 Normally, submissive means in English to accept, willingly, a superior's authority and power. Thus a defeated army submits to the victor, and Gilbert can have the Grand Inquisitor say, "Submit to fate without unseemly wrangle." The verb here, the one which Ignatius normally uses is hypotassein/hypotassesthai, that is, to bring someone into subjection or to subject one's self, as in Ep Polycarp 2: "Subject the more/rather troublesome with gentleness." Independently, in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, he uses the same language. Paul frequently uses hypakouein, give heed to and thus obey, and though I don't have my books here, hypotassein is also used in the NT in the sense of obedience. I don't want to stretch the point, but the root word is tassein, to put in order or in an orderly arrangment, especially military order, hence taxis (military formation) which gives us the word tactics (taktika). Yes, we are there to assist the bishop but we are also to obey him as a superior officer and not just when we agree with his decisions. Normally, submissive means in English to accept, willingly, a superior's authority and power. Thus a defeated army submits to the victor, and Gilbert can have the Grand Inquisitor say, "Submit to fate without unseemly wrangle." The verb here, the one which Ignatius normally uses is hypotassein/hypotassesthai, that is, to bring someone into subjection or to subject one's self, as in Ep Polycarp 2: "Subject the more/rather troublesome with gentleness." Independently, in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, he uses the same language. Paul frequently uses hypakouein, give heed to and thus obey, and though I don't have my books here, hypotassein is also used in the NT in the sense of obedience. I don't want to stretch the point, but the root word is tassein, to put in order or in an orderly arrangment, especially military order, hence taxis (military formation) which gives us the word tactics (taktika). Yes, we are there to assist the bishop but we are also to obey him as a superior officer and not just when we agree with his decisions.

]]> By: woodcutter http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/comment-page-1/#comment-156222 woodcutter Mon, 26 May 2008 21:26:17 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=598#comment-156222 Dr.Flemming, would you say that the word "submissive" as in "My soul be for theirs that are submissive to the bishop" in this case means ...to be under the mission of the Bishop. There for we assist the Bishop in his duties as shepherd and bishop so that he can fulfill his mission. We allow that he has given his life to the the Church and will serve Christ under his (the Bishops) good council. What do you think. Dr.Flemming, would you say that the word "submissive" as in "My soul be for theirs that are submissive to the bishop" in this case means ...to be under the mission of the Bishop. There for we assist the Bishop in his duties as shepherd and bishop so that he can fulfill his mission. We allow that he has given his life to the the Church and will serve Christ under his (the Bishops) good council. What do you think.

]]> By: CPR http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/26/polycarp/comment-page-1/#comment-156208 CPR Mon, 26 May 2008 21:15:42 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=598#comment-156208 Alright. I'll do the job for him, to the best of my lights, under God and His Earth. Did he say that? "We shall later take up marriage, but here Ignatius commends a man for celibacy but only if he can be chaste without boasting." -TJF Only an old man can be chaste. It is why marriage not only helps to dissuade a man from his unruly propensities but also exposes him to an appropriately emotional world of family. When it is sanguine and peaceful it is I would guess a delight to the divine. Even in this our imperfect world in which we are all imperfect. (Unless so far if he is a priest in the Holy Roman Catholic Church.) Let then in truth be, whatever is God's will. It is not always God's will, since in our world/s he does not control that which in freedom, imperfect as that is and will always be is also allowed its own unruliness. Boats against the currents borne back when needed into the past, -CPR Alright. I'll do the job for him, to the best of my lights, under God and His Earth. Did he say that?

"We shall later take up marriage, but here Ignatius commends a man for celibacy but only if he can be chaste without boasting." -TJF

Only an old man can be chaste. It is why marriage not only helps to dissuade a man from his unruly propensities but also exposes him to an appropriately emotional world of family. When it is sanguine and peaceful it is I would guess a delight to the divine. Even in this our imperfect world in which we are all imperfect. (Unless so far if he is a priest in the Holy Roman Catholic Church.)

Let then in truth be, whatever is God's will. It is not always God's will, since in our world/s he does not control that which in freedom, imperfect as that is and will always be is also allowed its own unruliness.

Boats against the currents borne back when needed into the past,
-CPR

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