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	<title>Comments on: Texas: Exes and Sexes</title>
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	<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/</link>
	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: DaveM</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-167721</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-167721</guid>
		<description>Excerpts below are taken verbatim from Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith
by Jon Krakauer
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
If the expansion of the LDS faith continues at its current pace, within sixty years governing the United States will become “impossible without Mormon cooperation,” according to the eminent scholar Harold Bloom, Sterling Professor of the Humanities at Yale University – and an unabashed admirer of Joseph Smith and the Mormons.  In 1992, in his influential book The American Religion, Bloom wrote:
 
Two aspects of the Saints’ vision seem starkly central to me; no other American religious movement is so ambitious and no rival even remotely approaches the spiritual audacity that drives endlessly toward accomplishing a titanic design.
The Mormons fully intend to convert the nation and the world, to go from some ten million souls to six billion.  
 
Later in the same book, Bloom made a bold prediction about what the LDS leadership will do when it gains sufficient political leverage:
 
And who can believe that the Mormons ever would have turned away from the practice of Celestial Marriage, if it were not for federal pressure? . . . I cheerfully do prophesy that some day, not too far on in the twenty-first century, the Mormons will have enough political and financial power to sanction polygamy again.  Without it, in some form or other, the complete vision of Joseph Smith never can be fulfilled. 
 
– – Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith, Jon Krakauer, pages 321-322.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excerpts below are taken verbatim from Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith<br />
by Jon Krakauer</p>
<p>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++</p>
<p>If the expansion of the LDS faith continues at its current pace, within sixty years governing the United States will become “impossible without Mormon cooperation,” according to the eminent scholar Harold Bloom, Sterling Professor of the Humanities at Yale University – and an unabashed admirer of Joseph Smith and the Mormons.  In 1992, in his influential book The American Religion, Bloom wrote:</p>
<p>Two aspects of the Saints’ vision seem starkly central to me; no other American religious movement is so ambitious and no rival even remotely approaches the spiritual audacity that drives endlessly toward accomplishing a titanic design.<br />
The Mormons fully intend to convert the nation and the world, to go from some ten million souls to six billion.  </p>
<p>Later in the same book, Bloom made a bold prediction about what the LDS leadership will do when it gains sufficient political leverage:</p>
<p>And who can believe that the Mormons ever would have turned away from the practice of Celestial Marriage, if it were not for federal pressure? . . . I cheerfully do prophesy that some day, not too far on in the twenty-first century, the Mormons will have enough political and financial power to sanction polygamy again.  Without it, in some form or other, the complete vision of Joseph Smith never can be fulfilled. </p>
<p>– – Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith, Jon Krakauer, pages 321-322.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Wilder</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-167382</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-167382</guid>
		<description>Dr. Fleming,

  This is likely not to be read, but I was wondering if this site is the one you were referring to for Gregory&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Moralia&lt;/i&gt;:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/gregory.html

  The author indicates it is an unrevised translation.  I found another site that does not have a complete translation (only up to v. 21 of Chapter 28.) Thanks for any assistance.

Regards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Fleming,</p>
<p>  This is likely not to be read, but I was wondering if this site is the one you were referring to for Gregory's <i>Moralia</i>:</p>
<p><a href="http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/gregory.html" rel="nofollow">http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/gregory.html</a></p>
<p>  The author indicates it is an unrevised translation.  I found another site that does not have a complete translation (only up to v. 21 of Chapter 28.) Thanks for any assistance.</p>
<p>Regards</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Wilder</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-159385</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 15:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-159385</guid>
		<description>&quot;The historical texts of the OT are not primarily concerned with domestic life, and often the allusions to marriage are only significant when the wives represent a foreign alliance or practice an alien religion or are otherwise mixed up in politics.&quot;

The comparatively greater focus on Queen Jezebel is likely an illustration of Dr. Fleming&#039;s point as the point of the extended discussion of her was to show the corruption of Israel by the foreign Baals. As well as reflecting her seemingly greater influence over her husband than that held by other wives of kings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The historical texts of the OT are not primarily concerned with domestic life, and often the allusions to marriage are only significant when the wives represent a foreign alliance or practice an alien religion or are otherwise mixed up in politics."</p>
<p>The comparatively greater focus on Queen Jezebel is likely an illustration of Dr. Fleming's point as the point of the extended discussion of her was to show the corruption of Israel by the foreign Baals. As well as reflecting her seemingly greater influence over her husband than that held by other wives of kings.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-159357</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 13:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-159357</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to transfer and slightly postpone the discussion of marriage to next week, when we&#039;ll be discussing this question in connection with the Apostolic Church, especially in connection with the Shepherd of Hermas.  Roland de Vaux was a competent Middle Eastern scholar who wrote popular books, rather useful on ancient Iraq, though not exactly up to date.  I am no expert here, despite some attempts to study the ancient Middle East. The statement that monogamy was the most common form of marriage is undoubtedly true, because it is true of virtually all polygynous societies.  What would happen if every man tried to have four wives and six concubines?  A revolution of womanless young men.  In Muslim countries, only comparatively well-off men can afford to take a second or third wife.  Thus, while what he says is true, it is also trivial, if it is intended to distinguish Jewish polygamy from other forms.  Complicating the issue is the nature of the evidence.  The historical texts of the OT are not primarily concerned with domestic life, and often the allusions to marriage are only significant when the wives represent a foreign alliance or practice an alien religion or are otherwise mixed up in politics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd like to transfer and slightly postpone the discussion of marriage to next week, when we'll be discussing this question in connection with the Apostolic Church, especially in connection with the Shepherd of Hermas.  Roland de Vaux was a competent Middle Eastern scholar who wrote popular books, rather useful on ancient Iraq, though not exactly up to date.  I am no expert here, despite some attempts to study the ancient Middle East. The statement that monogamy was the most common form of marriage is undoubtedly true, because it is true of virtually all polygynous societies.  What would happen if every man tried to have four wives and six concubines?  A revolution of womanless young men.  In Muslim countries, only comparatively well-off men can afford to take a second or third wife.  Thus, while what he says is true, it is also trivial, if it is intended to distinguish Jewish polygamy from other forms.  Complicating the issue is the nature of the evidence.  The historical texts of the OT are not primarily concerned with domestic life, and often the allusions to marriage are only significant when the wives represent a foreign alliance or practice an alien religion or are otherwise mixed up in politics.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Wilder</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-159009</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 03:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-159009</guid>
		<description>Also for reference, here&#039;s the link to the section on marriage (beginning with polygamy/monogamy) of Roland de Vaux&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Ancient Israel: its life and institutions. &lt;/i&gt;

http://books.google.com/books?id=A42yVk8kj8kC&amp;pg=PA24&amp;lpg=PA24&amp;dq=ancient+israel+polygamy&amp;source=web&amp;ots=Fl9B71mnrV&amp;sig=yguQf56fztkG3eTsOtGNPTClszk&amp;hl=en#PPA25,M1

He contends that &quot;It is clear that the most common form of marriage in Ancient Israel was monogamy&quot;; although he notes both examples of polygamy in Israel and the Talmudic rule permitting four wives to a common man and up to eighteen to the king.

(I cannot speak to de Vaux&#039;s credentials.  Perhaps Dr. Fleming or another knows.)

(Courtesy of Google Books)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also for reference, here's the link to the section on marriage (beginning with polygamy/monogamy) of Roland de Vaux's <i>Ancient Israel: its life and institutions. </i></p>
<p><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=A42yVk8kj8kC&#038;pg=PA24&#038;lpg=PA24&#038;dq=ancient+israel+polygamy&#038;source=web&#038;ots=Fl9B71mnrV&#038;sig=yguQf56fztkG3eTsOtGNPTClszk&#038;hl=en#PPA25,M1" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=A42yVk8kj8kC&#038;pg=PA24&#038;lpg=PA24&#038;dq=ancient+israel+polygamy&#038;source=web&#038;ots=Fl9B71mnrV&#038;sig=yguQf56fztkG3eTsOtGNPTClszk&#038;hl=en#PPA25,M1</a></p>
<p>He contends that "It is clear that the most common form of marriage in Ancient Israel was monogamy"; although he notes both examples of polygamy in Israel and the Talmudic rule permitting four wives to a common man and up to eighteen to the king.</p>
<p>(I cannot speak to de Vaux's credentials.  Perhaps Dr. Fleming or another knows.)</p>
<p>(Courtesy of Google Books)</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Wilder</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-159003</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 03:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-159003</guid>
		<description>It&#039;&#039;s certainly true that, particularly the OT, while an account of God&#039;s dealings with mankind, relates that through His dealing with particular men.  It is not intended as a history of the various societies generally except to the extent it relates history of the national of Israel in Canaan.  It&#039;s also true that none of the prophets condemn polygamy, although they do condemn the taking of foreign wives (particularly after the return from exile.)  But it was the foreignness of the wives that was condemned. The text is simply silent on the matter of polygamy other than to relate that some men engaged in it. (An exception may be Exodus 21:10 which references a man taking another woman without diminishing a maidservant betrothed to him, but it&#039;s not clear to me if the first wife was kept as a wife.)

On balance, I suppose the most we can answer is that monogamy is the Lord&#039;s intended ideal (and obviously the law in the Christian West for many centuries), but He has, for whatever reason, refrained from expressly condemning the practice (although as I&#039;ve related I think one could draw inferences critical of the practice.)  

Still we are left with the spectacle of secularists who in one breath would likely uphold the right of homosexuals to &quot;marry&quot;, inveighing against polygamy as an affront to monogamy.  Funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It''s certainly true that, particularly the OT, while an account of God's dealings with mankind, relates that through His dealing with particular men.  It is not intended as a history of the various societies generally except to the extent it relates history of the national of Israel in Canaan.  It's also true that none of the prophets condemn polygamy, although they do condemn the taking of foreign wives (particularly after the return from exile.)  But it was the foreignness of the wives that was condemned. The text is simply silent on the matter of polygamy other than to relate that some men engaged in it. (An exception may be Exodus 21:10 which references a man taking another woman without diminishing a maidservant betrothed to him, but it's not clear to me if the first wife was kept as a wife.)</p>
<p>On balance, I suppose the most we can answer is that monogamy is the Lord's intended ideal (and obviously the law in the Christian West for many centuries), but He has, for whatever reason, refrained from expressly condemning the practice (although as I've related I think one could draw inferences critical of the practice.)  </p>
<p>Still we are left with the spectacle of secularists who in one breath would likely uphold the right of homosexuals to "marry", inveighing against polygamy as an affront to monogamy.  Funny.</p>
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		<title>By: James Kabala</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-158927</link>
		<dc:creator>James Kabala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 01:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-158927</guid>
		<description>&quot;The two major exceptions, Abraham and Jacob.&quot;

Of course, in addition to them there are some shadier polygamists, notably Lamech (apparently the first polygamist) and Esau.  (Cain, however, seems to have been monogamous.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The two major exceptions, Abraham and Jacob."</p>
<p>Of course, in addition to them there are some shadier polygamists, notably Lamech (apparently the first polygamist) and Esau.  (Cain, however, seems to have been monogamous.)</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Don&#8217;t Bunch&#8221;: FLDS and Intentional Communities &#171; Stony Creek Digest</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-158915</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Don&#8217;t Bunch&#8221;: FLDS and Intentional Communities &#171; Stony Creek Digest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 01:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-158915</guid>
		<description>[...] called - will not be tolerated by our new masters. Dr. Thomas Fleming, a Catholic, surmised that the underlying hostility of the state towards the FLDS was the latter&#8217;s commitment to marriage. The teen pregnancy rate on the YFZ Ranch was no higher than an average American neighborhood: the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] called - will not be tolerated by our new masters. Dr. Thomas Fleming, a Catholic, surmised that the underlying hostility of the state towards the FLDS was the latter&#8217;s commitment to marriage. The teen pregnancy rate on the YFZ Ranch was no higher than an average American neighborhood: the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Kabala</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-158893</link>
		<dc:creator>James Kabala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 00:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-158893</guid>
		<description>If Dr. Fleming is still reading this thread, I wonder if he would be so kind as to answer the question: What were the common Jewish marriage practices of Jesus&#039;s day?  Was polygamy still routine among the wealthy?  

  I can&#039;t offhand think of any New Testament character who is explicitly said to be polygamous.  I would be particularly curious, for example, about two characters at the top of the social heap who clearly could have had multiple wives if they had wanted to and whose marital status is mentioned: Herod Antipas (who displayed sexual immorality by stealing his brother&#039;s wife, but is never mentioned as having any other wives) and the high priest Caiaphas (who is said to have a close relationship with his father-in-law Annas.  I confess I don&#039;t know the underlying Greek word; does this imply a sole father-in-law, or could Caiaphas have had other fathers-in-law for other wives?).  If polygamy had become rarer, why would that have been? Was it Greco-Roman influence?  Or was polygamy still routine but, for whatever reason, no clear record of this appears in the Gospel text?

  At the other end of the chronological spectrum, when did polygamy become routine among the Jews?  Mr. Wilder is right that most of the figures in Genesis and Exodus seem monogamous - Adam, Noah, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Aaron. One could also include Job, who seems to date from remote antiquity.  The two major exceptions, Abraham and Jacob, were naturally monogamous and forced into polygamy by adverse circumstances. Any thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Dr. Fleming is still reading this thread, I wonder if he would be so kind as to answer the question: What were the common Jewish marriage practices of Jesus's day?  Was polygamy still routine among the wealthy?  </p>
<p>  I can't offhand think of any New Testament character who is explicitly said to be polygamous.  I would be particularly curious, for example, about two characters at the top of the social heap who clearly could have had multiple wives if they had wanted to and whose marital status is mentioned: Herod Antipas (who displayed sexual immorality by stealing his brother's wife, but is never mentioned as having any other wives) and the high priest Caiaphas (who is said to have a close relationship with his father-in-law Annas.  I confess I don't know the underlying Greek word; does this imply a sole father-in-law, or could Caiaphas have had other fathers-in-law for other wives?).  If polygamy had become rarer, why would that have been? Was it Greco-Roman influence?  Or was polygamy still routine but, for whatever reason, no clear record of this appears in the Gospel text?</p>
<p>  At the other end of the chronological spectrum, when did polygamy become routine among the Jews?  Mr. Wilder is right that most of the figures in Genesis and Exodus seem monogamous - Adam, Noah, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Aaron. One could also include Job, who seems to date from remote antiquity.  The two major exceptions, Abraham and Jacob, were naturally monogamous and forced into polygamy by adverse circumstances. Any thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Wilder</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/23/texas-sexes/comment-page-2/#comment-158538</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Wilder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 16:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=597#comment-158538</guid>
		<description>Dr. Fleming,

  Quite interesting.  Thank you very much.

  Thank you also for the reference to Gregory.  I am slated to teach a bible class on Job this Summer and will doubtless find that an interesting and helpful reference.

  To the extent I deviated the discussion from the central purpose of your writing, my apologies.  The spectacle in Texas borders on the absurd with likely welfare cheats lusting after teenagers on one side and Marxists parading as the saviors of children (while confiscating them based on lies) on the other.

  I suppose it fits their slogan, perhaps, &quot;It&#039;s a whole other country.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Fleming,</p>
<p>  Quite interesting.  Thank you very much.</p>
<p>  Thank you also for the reference to Gregory.  I am slated to teach a bible class on Job this Summer and will doubtless find that an interesting and helpful reference.</p>
<p>  To the extent I deviated the discussion from the central purpose of your writing, my apologies.  The spectacle in Texas borders on the absurd with likely welfare cheats lusting after teenagers on one side and Marxists parading as the saviors of children (while confiscating them based on lies) on the other.</p>
<p>  I suppose it fits their slogan, perhaps, "It's a whole other country."</p>
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