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	<title>Comments on: Church and Nation: America&#8217;s Original Sin</title>
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	<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/</link>
	<description>Your home for traditional conservatism.</description>
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		<title>By: Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture &#124; Your Home for Traditional Conservatism &#187; Church and Nation: A Credal Nation, Part 3</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-168391</link>
		<dc:creator>Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture &#124; Your Home for Traditional Conservatism &#187; Church and Nation: A Credal Nation, Part 3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 20:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-168391</guid>
		<description>[...] America&#8217;s Original Sin [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] America&#8217;s Original Sin [...]</p>
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		<title>By: I am not Spartacus</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-161633</link>
		<dc:creator>I am not Spartacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-161633</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;One of the problems I’m having with this discussion is Scott’s use of the term “faithful Catholics”. I’m not sure, especially in postmodern America what this term means?&lt;/i&gt;

A Faithful Catholic is one who maintains the Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority.

I am living proof one can be a Faithful Catholic and a good American.

I am one who rejects the ideology of splitting the history of the Church into Pre or Post any Ecumenical Council, especially if the idea bears the toxic and heretical notion the Church as the authoritative Pillar and Ground of truth has ceased to exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>One of the problems I’m having with this discussion is Scott’s use of the term “faithful Catholics”. I’m not sure, especially in postmodern America what this term means?</i></p>
<p>A Faithful Catholic is one who maintains the Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority.</p>
<p>I am living proof one can be a Faithful Catholic and a good American.</p>
<p>I am one who rejects the ideology of splitting the history of the Church into Pre or Post any Ecumenical Council, especially if the idea bears the toxic and heretical notion the Church as the authoritative Pillar and Ground of truth has ceased to exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture &#124; Your Home for Traditional Conservatism &#187; Church and Nation: A Credal Nation, Part I</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-159417</link>
		<dc:creator>Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture &#124; Your Home for Traditional Conservatism &#187; Church and Nation: A Credal Nation, Part I</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 16:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-159417</guid>
		<description>[...] introducing this series last week, I noted that I had been careful in my choice of the title &#8220;Church and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] introducing this series last week, I noted that I had been careful in my choice of the title &#8220;Church and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Etienne Gervaise</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-158879</link>
		<dc:creator>Etienne Gervaise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 00:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-158879</guid>
		<description>Since the only &quot;americanists&quot; I know are Mormon John Birchers, I don&#039;t consider myself one.  I would have to subscribe to a &quot;my country right or wrong&quot; mentality.  I see the leaders of the US attacking various and sundry bogeymen chosen by David Frum and other non-Americans, and must disagree with such wrong actions -- read: wars.

Whenever I return to the UK, I tell folks there that I am a Virginian because that&#039;s where I plant my garden and pay property taxes.  It is a response that leaves Europeans of all stripes  befuddled.  And why not?  It was at Jamestown where I learned that the tripartite essence of being English, was king, language, and church (not place).  Since the constitution forbids the establishment of a national church, and we are a republic not an empire, that leaves us with the English language, itself an institution under fire from enlightened progressives.

As for the church, well, my beloved Anglicans have checked into the funny farm, and since I decided that no American religion measured up to any decent tradition,  I became Romanian Orthodox!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the only "americanists" I know are Mormon John Birchers, I don't consider myself one.  I would have to subscribe to a "my country right or wrong" mentality.  I see the leaders of the US attacking various and sundry bogeymen chosen by David Frum and other non-Americans, and must disagree with such wrong actions -- read: wars.</p>
<p>Whenever I return to the UK, I tell folks there that I am a Virginian because that's where I plant my garden and pay property taxes.  It is a response that leaves Europeans of all stripes  befuddled.  And why not?  It was at Jamestown where I learned that the tripartite essence of being English, was king, language, and church (not place).  Since the constitution forbids the establishment of a national church, and we are a republic not an empire, that leaves us with the English language, itself an institution under fire from enlightened progressives.</p>
<p>As for the church, well, my beloved Anglicans have checked into the funny farm, and since I decided that no American religion measured up to any decent tradition,  I became Romanian Orthodox!</p>
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		<title>By: Ronduck</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-158523</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronduck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-158523</guid>
		<description>77G.S.

&lt;i&gt;I appreciate Mr. Duck’s point.&lt;/i&gt;
Thank you.

&lt;i&gt;However the flip side is equally worth considering: In my experience the problem is not that of too many American Catholics fiercely holding on to their Catholic identity — but that American Catholics are obsessed with fitting in, and acquiring the trappings of success as per the Yankee model.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;Probably had the distinctively ethnic character — German, French, Italian, Pole, etc. — of various Catholic parishes been retained, there would be considerably less taint of leftism and statism found in American Catholicism today.&lt;/i&gt;

I see your point, but this loss of ethnic character does give the church an opportunity to clean house. By emphasizing the unity of American catholics as a single group with common concerns, the church hierarchy could use them as a tool to clean up America. In one central American country the bishop was able to call out &lt;b&gt;300,000&lt;/b&gt; people to gather in the nation&#039;s capital to rally to criminalize abortion. That kind of national unity isn&#039;t possible if the various parishes are emphasizing their differences. 

In fact if the church were to see itself as a national branch of the Catholic church instead of a tower of Babel, it would be a backdoor way for you traditionalists to reintroduce the latin Mass and set itself up as THE standard of what is and is not American. This is why in some of my earlier anti-Catholic rants I have suggested that the Pope eliminate the USCCB, cut the US cardinals down to archbishop and appoint a single national cardinal to lead the national church. This man would be a focus of unity for US catholics and a recognized spokesman for the church. Instead of having that Catholic League defending the church, the church could defend itself in public. 

Don&#039;t get me wrong, I am still anti-catholic, but the churches decay, size and new leadership at the top does give it an opportunity to clean house and grow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>77G.S.</p>
<p><i>I appreciate Mr. Duck’s point.</i><br />
Thank you.</p>
<p><i>However the flip side is equally worth considering: In my experience the problem is not that of too many American Catholics fiercely holding on to their Catholic identity — but that American Catholics are obsessed with fitting in, and acquiring the trappings of success as per the Yankee model.</i></p>
<p><i>Probably had the distinctively ethnic character — German, French, Italian, Pole, etc. — of various Catholic parishes been retained, there would be considerably less taint of leftism and statism found in American Catholicism today.</i></p>
<p>I see your point, but this loss of ethnic character does give the church an opportunity to clean house. By emphasizing the unity of American catholics as a single group with common concerns, the church hierarchy could use them as a tool to clean up America. In one central American country the bishop was able to call out <b>300,000</b> people to gather in the nation's capital to rally to criminalize abortion. That kind of national unity isn't possible if the various parishes are emphasizing their differences. </p>
<p>In fact if the church were to see itself as a national branch of the Catholic church instead of a tower of Babel, it would be a backdoor way for you traditionalists to reintroduce the latin Mass and set itself up as THE standard of what is and is not American. This is why in some of my earlier anti-Catholic rants I have suggested that the Pope eliminate the USCCB, cut the US cardinals down to archbishop and appoint a single national cardinal to lead the national church. This man would be a focus of unity for US catholics and a recognized spokesman for the church. Instead of having that Catholic League defending the church, the church could defend itself in public. </p>
<p>Don't get me wrong, I am still anti-catholic, but the churches decay, size and new leadership at the top does give it an opportunity to clean house and grow.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronduck</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-158513</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronduck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-158513</guid>
		<description>78G.S.

&lt;i&gt;Would “America” as we know it — a vast, unitary industrial state networked across the entire continent — have been possible without the dishonorable treatment of the tribes native to this continent?&lt;/i&gt;

No, America probably wouldn&#039;t be what it is today if it had not killed the Indians, it would be Mexico from the beginning. A significant part of the population of Mexico is either full blooded native or at least part, which &lt;b&gt;partly&lt;/b&gt; explains the differences between the US and its&#039; southern neighbor. 

Since we were talking about New England and the Indians, here is the first Indian war fought in the colonies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Philip&#039;s_War

I would say that at the very least we should honor our treaties with the Indians we have now or negotiate a treaty with them we are willing to keep.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>78G.S.</p>
<p><i>Would “America” as we know it — a vast, unitary industrial state networked across the entire continent — have been possible without the dishonorable treatment of the tribes native to this continent?</i></p>
<p>No, America probably wouldn't be what it is today if it had not killed the Indians, it would be Mexico from the beginning. A significant part of the population of Mexico is either full blooded native or at least part, which <b>partly</b> explains the differences between the US and its' southern neighbor. </p>
<p>Since we were talking about New England and the Indians, here is the first Indian war fought in the colonies:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Philip&#039;s_War" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Philip&#039;s_War</a></p>
<p>I would say that at the very least we should honor our treaties with the Indians we have now or negotiate a treaty with them we are willing to keep.</p>
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		<title>By: G.S.</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-158472</link>
		<dc:creator>G.S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 12:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-158472</guid>
		<description>And since we&#039;re speaking of America&#039;s Original Sin -- and hopefully I won&#039;t be mistaken for a leftie here -- what about the American Indian?

Would &quot;America&quot; as we know it -- a vast, unitary industrial state networked across the entire continent -- have been possible without the dishonorable treatment of the tribes native to this continent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And since we're speaking of America's Original Sin -- and hopefully I won't be mistaken for a leftie here -- what about the American Indian?</p>
<p>Would "America" as we know it -- a vast, unitary industrial state networked across the entire continent -- have been possible without the dishonorable treatment of the tribes native to this continent?</p>
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		<title>By: G.S.</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-158461</link>
		<dc:creator>G.S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 12:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-158461</guid>
		<description>I appreciate Mr. Duck&#039;s point.

However the flip side is equally worth considering:  In my experience the problem is not that of too many American Catholics fiercely holding on to their Catholic identity -- but that American Catholics are obsessed with fitting in, and acquiring the trappings of success as per the Yankee model.  

The WASP-iest people here in Louisville are the ones who send their kids to elite Catholic schools as a ticket to respectable &quot;moderate Republican&quot; yuppiedom.

Historically a great many Catholic bishops have fallen all over themselves to prove their loyalty to the Enlightenment-inspired, American Proposition -- such as by suppressing and/or discouraging German identity among German Catholics.

Probably had the distinctively ethnic character -- German, French, Italian, Pole, etc. -- of various Catholic parishes been retained, there would be considerably less taint of leftism and statism found in American Catholicism today.

If Catholics vote for pro-abortion, pro- gay lobby, pro-feminist politicians &quot;as a way of sticking it to the native Yankees&quot;, they can hardly be said to have held on to their Catholic identity, now have they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate Mr. Duck's point.</p>
<p>However the flip side is equally worth considering:  In my experience the problem is not that of too many American Catholics fiercely holding on to their Catholic identity -- but that American Catholics are obsessed with fitting in, and acquiring the trappings of success as per the Yankee model.  </p>
<p>The WASP-iest people here in Louisville are the ones who send their kids to elite Catholic schools as a ticket to respectable "moderate Republican" yuppiedom.</p>
<p>Historically a great many Catholic bishops have fallen all over themselves to prove their loyalty to the Enlightenment-inspired, American Proposition -- such as by suppressing and/or discouraging German identity among German Catholics.</p>
<p>Probably had the distinctively ethnic character -- German, French, Italian, Pole, etc. -- of various Catholic parishes been retained, there would be considerably less taint of leftism and statism found in American Catholicism today.</p>
<p>If Catholics vote for pro-abortion, pro- gay lobby, pro-feminist politicians "as a way of sticking it to the native Yankees", they can hardly be said to have held on to their Catholic identity, now have they?</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-158451</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 11:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-158451</guid>
		<description>#73.  The South did not suffer from any considerable anti-Catholicism until the late 19th and early 20th century.  When it did appear it was  1)part of the reaction against the many  alien seeming  aspects of the hostile  and exploitive North  and 2) a product of absorption of Southern Protestantism  (from the top down) into the intellectual world of Northern Protestantism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#73.  The South did not suffer from any considerable anti-Catholicism until the late 19th and early 20th century.  When it did appear it was  1)part of the reaction against the many  alien seeming  aspects of the hostile  and exploitive North  and 2) a product of absorption of Southern Protestantism  (from the top down) into the intellectual world of Northern Protestantism.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronduck</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/05/22/church-and-nation-americas-original-sin/comment-page-2/#comment-158178</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronduck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 03:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=596#comment-158178</guid>
		<description>I seem to have screwed up my html tag in the above post. I meant to put  at the end of the first paragraph not &lt;i&gt;, oops.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seem to have screwed up my html tag in the above post. I meant to put  at the end of the first paragraph not <i>, oops.</i></p>
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