Bleeding Serbia
I have just returned from Serbia, where I presented a paper at a conference on the Kosovo question. I left only a day before the election and had the opportunity to get some idea of public opinion.
For the Serbs, the issue was and is and will be, so long as there are Serbs, Kosovo. At the DSS rally in Trg Republike (Square of the Republic) on May 9th, Prime Minister Kostunica’s supporters were sporting t-shirts declaring “Kosovo je Serbija” (Kosovo is Serbia), but Belgrade is home territory to the Europhile young professionals who would like nothing better than to forget the past, forget their defeat in 1389, forget five centuries of Turkish oppression, forget the genocide inflicted on their people living in Croatia and Bosnia during the first independent state of Croatia during the 1940’s, forget the dirty part played by the US in supporting Slavic Muslims in Bosnia and terrorist Albanian Muslims in Kosovo.
On a brief joint down to Kosovo, my colleagues (Srdja Trifkovic, Doug Bandow, Jim Jatras, Sunil Ram, and Raphael Israeli) and I visited Bishop Artemije at the crudely restored Banjska Monastery (destroyed by the Muslims ages ago). He was leaving for the beautiful monastery of Gracanica and had to have an armed guard provided by UNMIK (United Nations Mission in Kosovo). The small detail of “soldiers” included Danes and Turks. “They’re back,” quipped one of the Americans.” The soldiers attempted a few pleasantries, but I could not be polite. In themselves, they may be as innocent as a virtuous guard in Auschwitz, but I cannot help hating everything they represent: A global empire that is willing to sacrifice Christians to the savagery of Muslim Albanian narco-terrorists whom John McCain armed.
When the Democrats accuse John McCain of wanting to continue the failed policies of the Bush administration, they are wide of the mark. George Bush, before taking office, represented himself as a fiscal conservative and a non-interventionist. McCain has always been not only a tax-and-spend leftist but a quick-on-the trigger cowboy looking for any excuse to send Americans into battle. Today Iraq, tomorrow Iran, next week Serbia and Russia. When he is elected, many of his supporters will dream of those golden years of Bush when moderates (by comparison) like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz were running our wars.
Raphi Israeli is an Israeli, and he cannot help advising Bishop Artemije to imitate Israel’s example. Why not begin planting colonies of Serbs within the Serb-dominated “northern triangle” of Kosovo and then begin to expand the borders of the Serbian pockets? In fact, as he knows too well, it has been the Albanians who have been expanding. Even on the Serbian side of Mitrovica, on the northern bank of the Ibar River, the Albanians (with international help, naturally) are building housing complexes that will some day surround the Serbs and make it impossible for them to defend themselves. Our tax-dollars at work.
In the days leading up to the election on May 11, observers are predicting a significant win for the Radical Party led by Toma Nikolic. If the Radicals could form a government, they would quickly proceed to reject the offers of the EU and embrace Russia in a close alliance. Many Serbs who watched on television the military display in Moscow on the anniversary of their victory in WWII must have been wondering how and when the Russians could flex some of their restored military muscle on behalf of Kosovo Serbs. In the event, the Radicals’ vote was a disappointing second place to the Westernizing Democratic Party led by Boris Tadic. The Western press reported the election results as a glorious victory for Tadic and a final rejection of Serb nationalism, but it is a little more complicated than that.
Tadic’s Democrats were, indeed, the big winner, gaining 102 seats in parliament, while Nikolic’s Radicals are expected to have only 78. But, since Nikolic campaigned in a quasi-coalition with Kostunica, whose party will hold 30, the “nationalists” will have 108 seats as opposed to Tadic’s 102. The balance of power is held by the Socialists, Milosevic’s old party, whose 20 seats would give either side a victory. The Socialists have grudges against both Kostunica and Tadic, who were in the coalition that ousted Milosevic, but the Radicals have present fewer problems. Their party’s real leader, Vojislav Seselj, joined Milosevic’s government and is being tried at the infamous Hague Tribunal. The Socialists, it is certainly true, have tried to distance themselves from Milosevic’s “nationalism,” but to serve under a party that illegally arrested their leader and sent him to the Hague should be a pill too bitter for men to swallow.
We shall see. In conversations with former members of Milosevic’s government, I could detect little affection for Kostunica and scant respect for Nikolic. On the other hand, they were dead set against capitulation to the US, which is what a Tadic government, whatever lies they might tell the voters, will represent. In fact, not all the Serbs who voted for Tadic believed they were casting a vote for surrender. Several younger Belgraders I spoke with believe Tadic when he insists he will never give up Serbia’s claim to Kosovo—though it is hard to believe he will do anything to assert such a claim—and many of them found the Radicals’ nationalist rhetoric far too extreme. In a meeting with Radical leaders I had a year or so ago, they seemed quite charming. Though it might have made sense for them to moderate the virulence of their anti-Catholic rhetoric in the presence of two Catholic journalists, I found their candor, as they say, refreshing. Tadic is already claiming that as president he will prevent any attempt to include that Radicals. This is not only a threat but a clearly illegal threat at that.
The students I spoke with also said they were disappointed in Kostunica’s leadership. When I suggested that a Nikolic-Kostunica coalition would provide both a strong executive and judicious moderation, they agreed. They probably still voted for Tadic, but the cleavage is not so clear-cut as the media is claiming.
George Soros and George Bush would both like us to believe that the future of Kosovo as an Albanian state is absolutely certain. By some mystic and irreversible law, US satellites are a fixed star in the political galaxy and, in the decades to come, the US will expand its sphere of influence first over the globe and then over the entire universe. As any student of history knows, this rhetoric of universal empire is only the usual self-serving myth put forward by failing empires. No human institution is immortal and in the history of nations, there are no certainties.
Serbs today should not make the mistake of thinking that American politicians and the media represent the entire county. The United States is not a unified nation with a common will. In addition to the usual distinctions of race, region, and religion, we are divided by ideology between an anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-Western elite class that panders to racial minorities and uses multi-culturalism as a weapon to destroy our heritage, and a naïve and patriotic majority that would gladly support the Serbs in their struggle with Islamic neighbors, if only they were properly informed. They are willing to hold their nose and vote for John McCain, a decidedly modest attainments and integrity, because of his war record and his lip-service support for the so-called “War against Terrorism,” a “war” that includes support for Islamic terrorists in Bosnia and Kosovo, as long as their friends in America come up with the cash.
The unfortunate truth is that in the Balkans, the two sides of the divided America come together. The anti-American left hates the Serbs as a patriotic people who cling to their traditions and cherish the memory of their defeat in 1389. The simple equation is that Serbs equal Confederate Southerners who equal Nazis. Every manufactured report about so-called “mass graves” is a reflection of this propaganda. On the other hand, patriotic Americans, once they have been indoctrinated into the idea that Serbs are the enemy of the US, are even more eager to go to war to punish the enemies of their country. Since American education has made sure that not one American in 20 knows that Belgrade is the capital of Serbia, much less that Kosovo is part of the Serbian heartland, one can hardly blame such ignorant people for believing the lies concocted in the media.
This brings us to the central in Serbia’s relations with the United States. While patriotic Christians in the US might some day wake up to realize they have been backing the wrong side in the Balkans, the multi-culturalist left will always hate any Serb who refuses to hate himself and his country. In other words, the agenda of the “Open Society” Foundation and other multi-culturalist groups in Serbia is a program for suicide. As difficult as the task may seem, Serbian leaders must attempt to arrive at a common understanding with Americans who fear Islamic Jihad and can be made to understand that the Serbs are, once again, a bulwark against the Islamic hordes who threaten our civilization.
I presented these remarks as part of a paper given in Belgrade, and they will be incorporated into my next Perspective in Chronicles. By then, we shall know if the Serbs have made the right choice.
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Breathtaking. I remember how Chronicles was probably the only voice in print (I had not yet gotten to the internet) calling attention to the outrages against the Serbs in the 90s.
As Justin Raimondo continually points out, it is truly Bizarro World.
Thank you as always for your intelligence and perception,but mostly for your loyalty to our shared heritage and God.Dr. Fleming it appears that the ethnic Serb vote was clearly in favor of the "nationalist" parties(although by less than predicted).Tadic's coalition is dependent on Hungarian,Albanian,etc. votes.I do not bring this up to criticize these non-Serb voters.They were voting in what they thought was their best interest.But Serbs at large still haven't sold out to the EU.Because the various captive nations of the EU are perhaps beginning to rebel(witness recent "revolts" in Italy and England),time may not be on the side of so-called Europhiles and their utter illusions about the "West". What is the West anymore,Dr. Fleming? If the West is Christendom than it is not in Brussels or Washington. Moscow?Rome?Both?
Thanks for this update from Serbia. It's been a few days since the election and I had been eagar to read some analysis.
Dr. Fleming wondered in a previous column why Illinois Governor Rob Blagojevich didn't act like a traditional Serb. Well, even in Serbia, there are many who are trying to pretend they're not who they are and it's obvious by the vote that there are a lot of them. Globalism has a way rending one's ignat useless. Gov. Blagojevich, meet Boris Tadic.
I enjoyed reading your remarks, Dr. Fleming!
I was and I am still in shock after what had happened in Serbia on May 11. While there is still hope that Tadic will not get to form a new Serbia's government, I am saddened that so many Serbs who voted for Boris Tadic, Ceda Jovanovic and Dinkic-G17- plus were ready to sell Kosovo (Serbia's history, pride) for empty promises. These Serbs are ready to have their history and heritage erased and rewritten for a trip or two to the EU without visa!! They are ready to forgive and forget all the crimes that were committed against them by the same people (Solana et at.) who promises them a "better European future" now! I am not against Serbia's partnership with European countries but I am so appalled by lies served by Serbia's leaders which are carefully orchestrated and guided by their US/ EU masters.
The only sound-minded political figure in Serbia today is Dr. Vojislav Kostunica. Yet, Serbs are taking him for granted, and treating him as dispensable commodity.
Dr. Fleming,
Based on your observations and conversations, is there any evidence that money flowed into the coffers of Tadic's Democrats or in support of their efforts in ways similar to those associated with the "Orange Revolution" and the "Rose Revolution" from outside Serbia?
I was just in Beograd and my relatives (both young and old) wanted to give up Kosovo and good luck to them. Kosovo is already lost and they're sick of war and sanctions and the rest. They don't want the EU either. They want jobs and a normal life. They're in a no-win situation.
The given choices:
Raise your family in abject Eastern European poverty; or:
Raise them in [comparatively wealthy and splendorous] Western European poverty?
It comes down to the fact that I see proud, patriotic Mexicans in America everyday. They are Mexicans, through and through, but are willing to leave Mexica, come to the USA and take advantage of the opportunities of here to enrich their families in Mexico. They don't "love" America, and they don't "hate" Mexico. They voted with their feet against their job prospects in Mexico, just as the Serbians voted with their fingers (punch stylii?) against Serbian isolation in favor of [Western] Europeanism.
Kosovo you ask? Lost cause, they say. They are more worried about the future of their children and grandchildren. This is an organic development out of an inorganic Revolution.
What the Serbs are doing is natural for a traditional people that has been forced in to their position.
# 6 Partic Hall- Your comparison of Serbia with Mexico and Serbians with Mexicans is out of touch. You do not know what you are talking about.
Serbia's prospect of becoming a sound state was great until the US led NATO states delivered "democracy", "human rights" and "color coded revolutions" - a western virus to this part of developing world.
Instead of prosperity the US brought misery, war, destruction and hate to Serbia!
You wrote...[Serbs voted]"in favor of [Western] Europeanism".
Pray explain the "[Western] Europeanism"!!!
With the US/NATO occupation of Serbia's province of Kosovo and Metohija mexicanization of this part of Serbia and the Balkans is evident, while a possibility of sustainable development is diminishing with every minute for as long as there are corrupt and war-happy NATO soldiers / foreign “UN administrators” on Serbia’s soil.
Mexico, previous to the American Revolution, had a great chance at being a functional government.
Since then, it has been in Revolution, as has America. Functional government has been eliminated.
As such, the people of Serbia had a chance to choose their Faith over American Imperialism. Needless to say, they chose American Imperialism. They cose Kentucy Fried Chicken over their national brands.
You are our brother in Christ Dr. Fleming! God help us all!
Dr. Fleming, I greatly respect your columns and all the observations from your trip are dead on. However, there are a few more elements at play here, and one can observe the whole situation somewhat differently.
1. It is really not about who cares about Kosovo and who does not. It is about whether UDBA alumni get to run the show or not, and apparently they will continue to do so.
2. The nationalists who think that they are the real nationalists ( as opposed to their adversaries the proeuropeans) are the descendants of the same Djilas's "New Class" themselves. They are not the nationalists of the old stripe. The old stripe nationalists are the Monarchists, who would have nothing to do with the new nationalists of the Karadzic-seselj stripe. The reconciliation of the "old chetniks" with the "new chetniks" is impossible for many reasons. The "old chetniks" are not organized and thus they are not empowered and they do not vote. Those who do, their vote is most likely split equally between DS and DSS. This is the untapped invisible force in Serb politics. BUT, until the Monarchists get fully engaged, there is no future for Serbia.
3. After the elections Serbia will continue to be a failed society from where everyone that gets a chance runs away. This is the fault of the political class, which cannot reform itself. As you say, the American right and left have come together in being against the Serbs and it's wrong. Serbs are suffering but there is very little they can do and taking it out on each other is completely wrong. All it does is prolong the Serb agony and perpetuates one kind of UDBA run government over another under the guise of nationalism. With this unnecessary upteenth election their political life is now taking surreal overtones worthy of a BUnel movie. Instead of elections, Serbs need overwhelming political reforms. Property rights have to be restored all the way from 1945. There has to be an investigation and what they call "lustration" of the untransparent political class and it's involvment in corruption and murders such as the Djindjic case. The tycoons that become billionaires thanks to UDBA connections must be investigated. And last but not least, the Karadordevic dynasty has to be fully rehabilitated. Only after all that is done there can be an honest debate about what to do about Europe, Russia, China, Serbs outside serbia and Kosovo and how to effectively counter the insidious policies of the West. Only then will the Serb "best and the brightest" come forward to work on this. Only then will these patriots come forward, when they do not have to fear for their lives and when there is a chance and the will for true change. Until then we'll be watching the serb version of "Groundhog Day" set in 1945.
Dr. Fleming, thank you for your sharp analysis of the situation.
I have to echo Boba's admonition to Mr. Hall. It is outrageous to me that westerners would diplomatically isolate, economically sanction, and militarily bomb Serbia and then claim that the country "is a worthless communist hell-hole that cannot function a polity, economy, or infrastructure".
How well would Austria or Vienna function if subjected to the same?
What is remarkable is that the Serbs have been remarkbly resilient under the circumstances. Even in the worst of times under economic and military attack people there generally kept their composure and a rare few went hungry for too long, much less died of starvation.
Today the main roads are better than the interstates in midwestern America. The economy is clearly growing - Fiat and General Motors building cars in central Serbia, a construction and real estate boom in Belgrade, and remarkably modern shopping centers across the cities serve as a few signs of that growth. But, oh dear, how could Serbian businessmen be functioning without the aid of the Brussels bureacracy!
Belgrade today still has its shabby parts and requires a bit more clean up, but the city has its beautiful parts and its culture, as exhibited through its people, is more alive than anything I feel in its comparatively wealthier central European neighbors further north, including places in Germany. And, while it would be impolite to engage in comparative analysis, let's just say that the women of Belgrade are stunning.
The spirit of the people shines in its achievements. Oridinary people of modest means are some of the best hosts I have had anywhere. Serbia hosts Eurovision in a few weeks. It is preparing for an ATP tennis tournament in the near future, as its young new male and female players dominate the courts and charm the press across the world. Like or dislike any particular political position, but respect the fact that, if you have access to Serbian television, you will witness intelligent men and women subjected to the difficult questions of a real press, not the softball PR we get on tv with our politicians.
Things are not perfect and while Serbia is not the benchmark nation in every respect, it is amazing just how successful she is, regardless of all the criticism of western pundits (critical theorists par excellance) and her own self-flaggelation. And, just perhaps, the west could learn a thing or two from her with respect to a resurgent national awareness and movemet back to the church.
In other words, it is amazing the lengths to which the "west" has gone to extinguish a flame that will not cool. While her neighbors may choose to open their lands to US military installations, EU bureacracy, and the relentless meddling of marxist-inspired NGOs, I can only hope that Serbs will continue to play a role that has been asked of them far too often in history: to remain true to their heritage and thereby a free people. Zivili Srbija!
Mr. Bailey,
Some of what you say may be true and some of your advice may come to pass. But tell me this, who is investigating how Bill Clinton, a man whose entire life was devoted to "public service" and whose compensation was publicly known as rather meager, suddenly finds himself living in a multi-million dollar mansion in retirement? Who is investigating the activities of American billionaires who seem to move easily between the boardroom and offices of the Treasury Department, central bank, and intelligence services? Who is busying himself in the nation's capital restoring the place of law and the constitutional order in the face of a raw executive power grab that would have outraged Washington and Jefferson? Unless you are a critical theorist just out to pooh-pooh Serbia, I might suggest you target your analyss a bit more widely and realize that the entire west (which includes Serbia and all of the Euro-descended world) is suffering the calamities you describe. Perhaps the Karadjeordjevic's will return to the throne when republican order returns to the District of Columbia.
Thomas Fleming: "The United States is not a unified nation with a common will. In addition to the usual distinctions of race, region, and religion, we are divided by ideology between an anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-Western elite class that panders to racial minorities and uses multi-culturalism as a weapon to destroy our heritage, and a naïve and patriotic majority that would gladly support the Serbs in their struggle with Islamic neighbors, if only they were properly informed."
Historians a thousand years from now will debate why the Western elite subscribed to an ideology that undermined their own people, heritage and ancestral institutions. "It is as if they no longer had the will to live," will say one. "No, they understood not what they did," another will say.
Since Mr. Fleming has brought up Israel and it's policy of settlements, I would like to mention that actually Israel actually LEFT the Gaza strip. They "cut their losses" so to speak. Isn't then Kosovo the metaphorical Gaza strip for Serbia?
Serbia needs to regroup and fight for the northern part of Kosovo where Serbs live. This probably does require some engagement with the international community, diplomatic discussions and, yes, joining various organizations.
I do believe that keeping the entire kosovo albanian population inside Serbia would be a tremendous economic burden, not to mention demographic time bomb.
Serbian culture and national identity will live on. It does not need to be linked to a territory.
Dragan,
The Gaza strip is not important to Israel in a cultural sense. Jerusalem is, and they continue to fight for its undivided incorporation within the Israeli state. Because Kosovo is integral to Serbia's identity and culture, Jerusalem is the more appropriate comparison. But to embrace the idea of territorial importance in any sense, one cannot believe what you are stating - that national identity need not be linked to territory. So, why not give all of Serbia away? What if Serbs were offered a swath of land in Scandinavia and a large sum of money to move there in order to make the Balkan mess go away? Would this work? Or would Serbs cease to be Serbs when deprived of their ancestral lands? Perhaps they should form a cyebr-community on the Internet? No, Serbian lands, particularly church lands of Kosovo and Metohija, will continue to be important to the Serbian identity. One can talk of partition or lost land, but one cannot refute that this would be a calamity.
Partition in the short term certainly is a good strategy, though some protectorate should also be established over Metohia, which is home to the great monasteries. Unfortunately, the US and its satellites are dead-set against it, and Serb support for partition might be seen as a major step backward. It should, however, be retained as the compromise position.
Parallels are sometimes useful, but, although Serbs and Mexicans usually like each other and have many things in common (I had dinner several times in Belgrade with a former Yugoslav Ambassador to Mexico, and he loves the country), but there are such fundamental differences as to make comparison worthless. The two viable forms of Mexico were 1) Spanish Mexico and 2) Creole Mexico, but the Freemasons and liberals ruined the latter alternative, leading Octavio Paz to long for a king.
Describing all the Serb politicians today as UDBA is, well, silly, if the word is to have any meaning. I have known UDBA officers, and some of the current lot in politics could never have made the grade. Not tough enough by half. Restoration of the monarchy would have been a good thing and was possible ten years ago, but the "Crown Prince" is not popular. His Serbian accent is worse than mine, and that is saying a good deal, and his deepest ties are with Britain and the US. He is a very nice man, but not cut from the same cloth as his ancestors. I have sometimes caught myself staring at his face, looking for some trace of Kara George. Serbs in general have not entirely written off Kosovo. As I tried unsuccessfully to explain, there is a wide range of opinion, from the self-hatred and treason of Soros's flunkeys to the naive desire for economic progress and security to cynical despair to fierce patriotism. In the same family, you can find opposing views. A patriotic friend of mine used to ridicule his teenage son's adoration of the criminal traitor Zoran Djindjic. Speaking of which, I know for a fact--please do not ask how--that the CIA was making arrangements to buy Djindjic, and although I have no knowledge, money has certainly been flowing from non-Serb quarters into Tadic's camp.
I think in trying to understand another people it is never good idea to invent categories and distinctions based on our own traditions and then apply them arbitrarily to others. I have met Commies and Socialists whose character and company I prefer to those of self-described conservatives. Passing snap judgments is easy; understanding people is the hard part.
A very interesting and informative article which makes perfect sense.
The Jatras, Ram, Tirfkovic, Bandow and Fleming delegation is the politically incorrect kind of multi-ethnic activity.
Dr. Fleming,
Your words:
“The United States is not a unified nation with a common will. In addition to the usual distinctions of race, region, and religion, we are divided by ideology between an anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-Western elite class that panders to racial minorities and uses multi-culturalism as a weapon to destroy our heritage, and a naïve and patriotic majority that would gladly support the Serbs in their struggle with Islamic neighbors, if only they were properly informed.”
I am not Serbian and have, therefore, no personal link to Serbian history or heritage. Of course, as a member of the Christian family, I do. Nevertheless, my understanding of Serbian history places me on the side of Serbians who understand Kosovo to be an integral part of their society, culture and identity.
I am a Southerner and have a very personal and vested interest in things Southern.
As a Southerner, I have been in the past quite inclined to place the entire debate about antebellum America, the war and Reconstruction into the historical file as an interesting relic of history and get on with being a "modern" American, whatever that might mean. However, since sometime in the 1980's, I have killed that inclination because I came to understand that what the elites to whom you refer want to place into the historical file is a lie, a lie which they want to instill into the current generation and a lie on which they are actually erecting current policy.
It is, from my understanding, the same with Serbia. Again, the elites to whom you refer foster a lie which is presented as truth, and again they continue to build policy on it.
Just this past week, while driving through the hill country, I happened upon an NPR station on which two foreign affairs "experts," on from the Obama camp and the other from the McCain camp, were being interviewed. Both of these "experts" were being asked about the policies of their respective candidates toward Russia. One of them stated and the other essentially agreed that the policy would be to bring Russia into the community of "responsible" nations as we (the elites) were doing with Serbia. The eye of my mind using the intonation in the voice of the NPR correspondent could see him agreeing with the "experts." The lie is indeed most insidious and quite pervasive!
"Just this past week, while driving through the hill country, I happened upon an NPR station on which two foreign affairs “experts,” on from the Obama camp and the other from the McCain camp, were being interviewed. Both of these 'experts' were being asked about the policies of their respective candidates toward Russia. One of them stated and the other essentially agreed that the policy would be to bring Russia into the community of 'responsible' nations as we (the elites) were doing with Serbia. The eye of my mind using the intonation in the voice of the NPR correspondent could see him agreeing with the 'experts.' The lie is indeed most insidious and quite pervasive!"
****
That kind of advocacy journalism happens all the time. Many of the individuals who are quick to bash Russian media say NOTHING critical about what the above quoted notes.
Not only are the neocons / neoliberals politically hostile towards Russia, many of them belong to the American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC). They oppose a fellow Western country, Russia, fighting Islamic terrorism within its own borders, only to support a dubious organization backing groups with known terrorist connections.
MAR
Fortunately, that org. is no more.
Unfortunately, its advocacy is still evident in other forms.
Isn't the American Committee for Peace in the Caucasus the same organization but renamed so its influence can extend beyond Chechnya? It's still generally called ACPC (as is the American Committee for Peace in Chechnya).
http://www.peaceinthecaucasus.org/
It also was founded by Zbigniew Brzezinski, Alexander M. Haig, Jr. and former Congressman Stephen J. Solarz
Your followup is correct.
If I correctly recall, the former ACPC was affiliated with the Jamestown Foundation, whereas the current version is linked to Freedom House.
Both of those orgs. keep the same company.
Eagle,
Good point on Gaza strip vs Jerusalem, however I am not sure Israel would risk it's existence for Jerusalem, if Jews didn't live there in significant numbers.
@21M.A. Roberts
Glad you brought that up. Actually the first chechen president travelled to american with backing from Turkey were he meet Brezinski at Harvard from there he went to Bosnia centre of islamic terror camps in Europe where he established a network were chechens would be trained and even given Bosnian citizenship in 1992.
I think it was in 2002 a letter was discovered called the "Golden Chain" which terrorist list themselves back in 1989 of who there main financial backers are which involves Abullah Bin Laden and Abu Hafs primary backers of chechen terrorism infact Abu Hafs is Russias most wanted man. Plus all the major operators in Chechnya have links or came from Bosnia.
I dont know if you have it in the US but you should read Paul Murphys book "Wolves of Islam" which has a suprising connection between Abdullah Bin Laden and 9/11
Like Serbia I never truly believed all the human rights accusations against Russia seeing how a lot of those leveled against Serbia turned out to be false then I found out who runs and is on the board of human rights watch in Russia http://www.rusjournal.com/ngos.html
"The two viable forms of Mexico were 1) Spanish Mexico and 2) Creole Mexico, but the Freemasons and liberals ruined the latter alternative, leading Octavio Paz to long for a king."
My point exactly. Mexico went into Revolt, and has destroyed itself.
My original point is that the Serbian people are at a point where they must choose to either live in comparative abject poverty and continue to fight for Kosovo, OR they improve their living standards by becoming a "respectable" member of Europe, mainly by letting go of Kosovo.
Essentially, the Serbians have been confronted with a false dichotomy, and played along. A "triple-false dichotomy" is the result. Indeed, Hegelian.
No question Serbia has been crucified. As a Greek the romantic vision of a Byzantine commonwealth has resonance, but having lived in Greece and Serbia, I know that the reality is the West. The West often has a terrible foreign policy but the internal policy for its citizens and residents beats anything that Greece, Serbia, or Russia has on offer. The corruption in our Byzantine world sadly precludes us from supporting ourselves and each other. We don't need the Turks or the West to destroy us, because we would do it to each other. The EU, whatever it is, provided great benefit to Greece and could to Serbia as well, in spite of the gall of losing Kosovo. Greece too lost, but nobody will restore what has been taken, and that includes Mother Russia who cares for her children when it is convenient. Romance is wonderful but you have to wake up in the morning and pay the bills.
"This brings us to the central in Serbia’s relations with the United States. While patriotic Christians in the US might some day wake up to realize they have been backing the wrong side in the Balkans, the multi-culturalist left will always hate any Serb who refuses to hate himself and his country. In other words, the agenda of the “Open Society” Foundation and other multi-culturalist groups in Serbia is a program for suicide. As difficult as the task may seem, Serbian leaders must attempt to arrive at a common understanding with Americans who fear Islamic Jihad and can be made to understand that the Serbs are, once again, a bulwark against the Islamic hordes who threaten our civilization."
This clearly offends.
I am afraid Serbia's relation with the U.S. has been decided with the first bombs falling on the Serbs and the final dismembering of their country. Dr Fleming is now giving Serbs advices of how to please Americans in order to give us a status of "a bulwark against the Islamic hordes". This would require , litterally, to reeducate Americans, a clearly impossible task for a small country like Serbia.
And cui bono when we have Orthodox Russians who respect us?
To point out the American Serb- enemies as multiculturalism, or "Open Society" foundations, or the Left is frankly insufficient if one doesn't state who is exactly hiding behind all that.
Serbs have memory, they remember 1389 and they certainly won't forget the treatment they received from the "Christians" of the West.
We have done our bit of being the bulwark and we ended up paying dearly for that. We are frankly tired of it. Being clubbered by both sided has ceased to be anything romantic to us.
We are discovering that we were not treated as Christians but rather as Orthodox Christians and that we shall have to accept, as from now on, as a permanent truth.
Gentlemen of Western Civilization, we have fought enough for you, but you prefered to treat us as your enemies.
Your war against "Islamic hordes" is now all yours.
"Gentlemen of Western Civilization ... Your war against “Islamic hordes” is now all yours"
Entirely so.
"we have Orthodox Russians who respect us"
Yes we do.
Alex,whenever you're ready we'll take a trip together to almost any American city,I'll drop you off at 2:00 a.m. on an inner city corner and I'll pick your corpse up in the morning.Vast areas of my country can no longer be intelligently called the "West"(not even the Wild West).I haven't been to Greece for some years but it was still Greece then.Why would it be better as Albania or Nigeria or Pakistan as the EU relentlessly consents to conquest by immigration.With respect,if you believe in "wak(ing) up in the morning and pay(ing) the bills" you're quaintly out of touch with the American way. Our few growth industries are prison construction and debt counseling.I'm really not sure what you mean by "Mother Russia who cares for her children when its convenient".America is content to see its children aborted,alienated by multicuturalism and disinherited by mass immigration.Russia pursues a pro-natalist policy,pro-Orthodox education and discourages dilution of the Russian community.I frankly am less worried about the survival of the Byzantine (your term) world ,corruption or not,than I am of this my beloved country.
If my statement "clearly offends," it is odd that my talk was applauded by a Belgrade audience and by other Serbs who have responded to this post. I was asked by an organization in Belgrade to make remarks on Serbia's relations with the US. I advised caution in pursuing either friendship or enmity. Any other strategy at this time could lead to dire consequences that would make the bombing of Belgrade and Novi Sad seem quite trivial. Yes, the West abandoned Eastern Christians on several important occasions, of which few Americans are aware. On the other hand, rather few people in the Orthodox world are aware of the bad government, high taxation, and general exploitation practiced by the East Roman government in Italy or the Empire's failure or rather refusal to help stave off the Lombards or, worse still, the simultaneous attempt to tax Byzantine Italy and destroy its icons. There are better examples to follow than either Emperors like Maurice and Leo or the self-serving Venetians. By and large, the leaders of nations and empires consult their own interest and those of their people at the expense of everyone else. We here at Chronicles are the only Western Christians who have consistently tried to tell the story of the West's betrayal of the East, but to go on whining about these things forever would strike even Serbia's best friends as unmanly.
Dragan
Regarding your analogy of Gaza to Kosovo.
I think the Israel analogy was in relation to the West Bank, not Gaza. Gaza for he Albanians would be the equivalent of Mitrovica. They may in time abandon it to keep the rump Kosovo together.
Nothing would please me more than the sight of the 200,000 displaced Serbs, marching past the Kosovo border checkpoints, Serbian flag in hand, right to Prishtina and claiming what is righfully theirs; their homes and the right to return.
That should test the bona fides of many an Albanian political leader who proclaims that Kosovo is safe for all. The displaced Serbs are righfully Europe's problem not Serbia's.
When 40,000 Serbs return to Pristina, the enclaves of the Hebron variety can be formed all over Kosovo.
It does reqire courage and personal sacrifice. Easierfor me to write about it than to see it realised. But that is my vision.
Serbs can cement their claim on Kosovo when 200,000+ Serbs return.
The EU - the wonderful EUSSR.
What planet are some of the above posters living on?
The EU is a corrupt - non democratic - and almost suicidal body which will lead Europe to perdition and Eurabia as it refuses to stop islamic and other mass immigration.
Why do the Serbs WANT to join? Because the 'media' cons them into believing it is shangri-la. Its not!!
They cannot give us English a promised vote on the new constitution because they know we would vote against and opinion polls show that the English at least would probably vote to leave if they got the chance - having been blatantly lied to many years ago when they stupidly voted to enter what they were assured was nothing more than a trading agreement.
Do the Serbs want to be overwhelmed by the new expansion of the Ottoman Empire?
They know more than most what it means to be under the Islamic yoke.
Britains largest religion will be islam in 25 years or sooner.
The EU largely controls immigration for the whole EUSSR area.
The Brits and the Americans (what business it is of theirs we may well ask) are determined to have Tukey become a member.
Some 70 - 80 million of islamic Turks all free to move into Europe.
We know Britain and Germany will be targetted for millions of them and undoubtedly Serbia will be front line.
But even worse for the Serbs will be the certainty that Albania and 'Kosovo' will become part of the EU.
If Serbia does as well, the Albanians and Kosovans will not only have free access and voting rights etc etc in 15% of Serbia - they will have the full monty.
The Serbs should look to free and prosperous countries like Norway and Switzerland and do a deal with the EU whilst maintaining their own sovereign governance.
The EU is just the kernal of the NWO. A terran (terror?)'borg' taking nation states into a dominated collective 'diktat'. The Serbs should avoid it like bird flu. It is just as deadly.
Elizabeth
"If my statement “clearly offends,” it is odd that my talk was applauded by a Belgrade audience and by other Serbs who have responded to this post"
Dr. Fleming, this may just show that you didn't meet some other type of audiences.
Also,
"Any other strategy at this time could lead to dire consequences that would make the bombing of Belgrade and Novi Sad seem quite trivial"
(if Serbs do not follow your advice?)
This is quite ominous.
It sounds that if Serbs refuse to be American pawns ( i.e. the 'bulwark against the Islamic hordes'), they may, quite logically, get those bombs back again. If any audience aplauded you on this sentence , you got into a very weird crowd, Sir.
The final statement of yours is not much more flattering to the Serbs:
"but to go on whining about these things forever would strike even Serbia’s best friends as unmanly"
'Whining forever', Dr Fleming? Did you really mean to say that?
And what exactly is 'unmanly' in pointing out to the treacherous and criminal behaviour of the Christian West towards the Serbs?
Now perhaps you understand why the majority of the Serbs prefer to go with the Russians.
With friends like these......
The views I presented in Belgrade this time are scarcely diifferent from what I have always said. Over the years I have made this arguments to Kostunica, to officials and academics associated with Milosevic, to Orthodox bishops, and to hard-core nationalists. As I have always said, it is up to Serbs to determine their national destiny and they should take any advice from foreigners, especially me, with a grain of salt. I have listened too often to Western wise-guys hectoring this or that politician or church leader in Belgrade, Banja Luka, Podgorica, and Cetinje. My point, if you will take the trouble to read what I have written, is not to believe rabid foreigners who advise drastic measures on either side, whether they advocate courting the US or provoking the US.
It is not a question of following my advice but of being prudent. The mad dogs in Washington have already given a taste of what they can do without any provocation. With a little provocation, Serbia could be Iraq. Is that really a good idea? I don't know of a Serb leader named Peter Recreational Vehicle, much less one living in Spain, who could claim to speak for his people, but if I did, I would advise him as I have advised everyone I have spoken with in Serbia, to consult the best interest of your country and to take whatever steps you deem necessary. What malice there is in this advice, I cannot imagine.
As someone who has written widely and spoken frequently on the West's betrayal of Eastern Christians, I do not think I need to endure insults from an anonymous poster who, for all I know, has done absolutely nothing. But setting the historical record straight is one thing, becoming one more minority whining about "How we've suffered" is quite another. In Herzegovina during 93, an American friend of mine kept on urging the Serbs do make better PR about their sufferings. He was told by everyone, "We Serbs do not exploit our dead." These were men, I said to myself, and if Peter RV is a man, he will understand what I am talking about. If he is not, then I put him down as one more victim of modernity that reduces good and bad intentions to driveling self-pity.
I should also point out that my original proposal for a paper included a few remarks on the advantages of a Russian alliance for Serbia. I did neglect to mention the presence, in our multi-ethnic "delegation", of Egor Englehart, a superb young Russian expert on the Balkans who speaks wonderful Serbian.
@37
"What malice there is in this advice, I cannot imagine."
No, Mr. TJF, no one attributes any malice to what you write.
It is all about sheer arrogance: pontificating to an old nation with culture that is clearly unknown to you.
Serbs would solicit advices from pope in Rome before they would from you.
Nuttier and nuttier--all with academic email addresses. This one from MIT, the previous one from some Cambridge tutoring joint in Spain.
The good news is that the DSS/Radicals/ Socialist coalition I predicted appears to be forming: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jLH74k9Pf4VCXkWCwLI59WaXJZUAD90MM9NO0
A version of my little piece is being translated into Serbian for distribution to Serb readers, who are remarkably sane. I begin, by the way, to suspect that the crazies are really some of the Albanian agents-provocateurs, who have hit us before.
Dr. Fleming ,forgive my slang,but you're still "the man".As a point of purely personal concern,however,for every bad Leo (as you mention the iconoclast)there are many more good Leos, e.g. Pope Leo the Great,Pope Leo XIII (who fought the Amercanist heresy),etc. Just having fun. Keep up the struggle.
Dr. Fleming,
I detect an irritation from your part at my comments but if you dislike being criticized ,you can easily eliminate me from the blog.
(I have to admit, it wouldn't be the first time for me to be erased)
I don't represent anybody but myself ( although , as all Serbs, I may sound as though I pretend to) but I do speak my mind which is often interpreted as abrasive in this world of singers of the praises and sycophants.
Being a Serb, I was deeply affected by what has happened to my people and therefore little inclined for balanced statements when I spot the condescension or falsehoods. I prefer to be hated than to keep silent. Quite frankly, I am a very angry man who doesn't give a damn what others think of him.
The most marvelous thing on this internet is precisely that one can express one's opinion anonymously; we are ,each one of us, equivalent to our opinion and nothing else.Without any side distraction of knowledge as to who we are or where do we live.
(You've discovered I live in Spain, which has already warped your answer to my objections).
Mr Fleming, whether anybody likes it or not, I will continue to ask for clarification of statements I consider demeaning for the Serbs, without ever counting how many people agree with me.
Your last statement is a case in point:
"With a little provocation, Serbia could be Iraq"
Are you trying to scare us ,Dr Fleming, into your idea of friendship with the United States? What exactly is 'a little
provocation' you are talking about? Do you realize that Tadic and Co are constantly insinuating the same to us? Do you suggest we live as sheep, as from now on?
You may not believe it but the answers to these questions are very important to us.
.
Peter RV, if you continue to take offence at statements which everyone else here can see very plainly are not threats, slanders, insults, hostility, or anything else that any Serb could justifiably be offended by, then no one here is going to take you seriously.
After all, if that really were what Dr Fleming were up to, he would be wasting his own time writing irrelevant dribble, which means that you shouldn't be wasting your time arguing against what he writes. Why waste your time arguing with a someone who is simply an idiot or a bigot who doesn't care about the truth anyway? As a Southerner, I dont go around over the internet searching for hateful remarks blogged by irrelevant Northerners who hate Southerners just because of who they are and write insulting things, and then get into blog fights with them. Life is too short and I am too busy.
Many of us at this site wish to know what's really going on in Serbia, so if you have anything relevant, we would like to hear it, otherwise, why dont you stop your silly accusations?
Peter RV
Pardon me for commenting on your discussion with the article's author. I get the impression you are shooting the messenger.
The passage in the article that you take offence with is good advice.
>>" In other words, the agenda of the “Open Society” Foundation and other multi-culturalist groups in Serbia is a program for suicide."
The passage above is alerting Serbs to the dangers of the political landscape they are facing. I cannot see what is offensive about this point. It is a reality that has to be understood, courted and eventually dealt with.
>>"As difficult as the task may seem, Serbian leaders must attempt to arrive at a common understanding with Americans who fear Islamic Jihad..."
The above passage offers good advice. It simply states the obvious. Diplomacy is what is needed. Lots of it.
I see the machinations behind the break-up of Yugoslavia as the natural progression of the collapse of the Soviet Union (itself a result of the Cold War). The EU, via NATO is embarking on a Byzantine type expansion of territory and markets right to Russia's doorstep. Yugoslavia was right in the middle of that expansion and was expendable. I think they view Serbia as the last bastion of the Yugoslav Federation that has to be dealt with, one way or another.
With the recent expansions, Europe and USA are positioning themselves for the emerging threats coming from China and India, by increasing territory, people and markets. The future is with those nations/alliances that have large numbers, robust economies and enough resources to arm a potent and effective war machine. See how NATO is now playing an active part side by side with USA in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Throughout history, Serbs have demonstrated fierce independence and strong sense of self; against the Byzantine Empire, Ottomans, Austrians, Germans and more recently NATO. Sadly for Serbs that attitude gets in the way of the bigger picture. The bigger picture, in my opinion is not Russia, but the economic threat of China and India.
What Serbs have to do, and it does require masterful diplomacy, is to steer a middle road without necessarily embracing Europe, not turning their backs to it either, but never relinquishing their claim on Kosovo. There will come a time when USA's economic power will wane, when Serbia would be able to re-assert its claim on Kosovo. It might take 100 years, but it took 600 years to get Kosovo back from the Ottomans the last time it was lost.
That is why Serbs have to return to Kosovo in large numbers, from which to build the base for Kosovo's eventual return to Serbia.
I had wonderful time reading this posts and to be honest, I'm surprised with your good intentions toward Serbia. First of all, I'd like to thank you Mr. Flaming for your this article, it really is very nice.
Let me tell you now what do I think about all of this sh.t that is happening to us.
If you ask me, I'd spit toward EU, with a big smile on my face. I agree with Elizabeth on the future of that burlesque. Next question would be - "Should I be afraid of the consequences"?! I personally couldn't care less! I wasn't afraid of those bombs that I used to count from my terrace while I was drinking raki, I was just extremely sad cause we were unable to hit those bombers and rockets. I've heard about one pilot who refused to hit the bridge cause there was a lot of people on it. Maybe he felt sorry or just maybe he knew history good enough and remember the story of those 50 or so saved USA pilot's by Serbian chetnicks. I voted for Kostunica (DSS), my father voted for Nikolic (SRS), my brother voted for Tadic (DS) and my mother also voted for DS cause as she says, she wants us to live a better. Our votes are divided and that is the main problem in Serbia. We're divided! If we weren't, there would be no way for Klinton to succeed in his vicious plans. Monika would be on the first page for who knows how long. Our guy is destroying our own army, not that there is much left to destroy but you get the picture.
I'm now wondering if you guys have noticed that famous "tell a lie over and over and it becomes a truth"! When ever some American dude from goverment is asked what about this or that over Kosovo, regarding Serbs ofc, the answer always goes - "Kosovo is finished story, it is an independent state". In the last 10 days, I haven't heard anything else about this issue and I've heard a lot! I haven't really pointed anything out, I was just writing what's on my mind.
This dude Dragan has born in a wrong country and I feel sad for him.
Interesting how history repeats, doesn't it?!
"Should anything serious happen in the Balkans, and the Serbs follow a policy we do not like, we shall simply strangle Serbia,” declared Austro-Hungarian emperor Franz Joseph I to the
German ambassador in Vienna in January of 1901.
Thus, an empire of 50 million people was threatening a state of little more than 3 million.
We're worlds policeman, do as you're told, hehe. Anyway, I'm quite sure it wont last for too long but I'm actually sad cause people of America as well as Serbia, haven't got the chance to be proud with their government's for far too long. At the moment I'm ashamed with this gay Tadic who represent us like we're beggars!
God is watching ladies and gentleman and I hope he'll make a sign cause it's about time for my country to get some air, we can't breathe! And please don't get me wrong, I don't hate Americans, I've got a lot of friends there. I just love my country and all the people that lives here.
The sooner atavistic obessions with 1389 and the like pass away, the better. Viva Europhile young professionals.
Well, son of a gun, Jack! Our Lord had it wrong: man DOES live by bread alone - according to you, anyway.
Mr. Fleming's trip to Serbia appears to have been a colossal waste of time both for his readers and himself. Not to mention the conference he attended and those who invited him. The colorful storytelling approach of this column, about Belgrade students he spoke to or memories of refreshing candor by Radicals he met with, remind me of Hillary Clinton's modus operandi when she bores the world with fables of boys who sell their scooters to support her campaign. But, being boring is not a sin, however proliferating always-unnecessary racist diatribes is another matter. Witness Fleming at work:
"I cannot help hating everything they (American soldiers in Kosovo) represent: A global empire that is willing to sacrifice Christians to the savagery of Muslim Albanian narco-terrorists whom John McCain armed."
While the anti-imperial stance is more than welcome, it is reduced to absurdity by suggesting that the empire decides whom to support against who based on their religious affiliation. So, Pax Americana supports the killing of Serbs by Albanians in Kosovo because Albanians are Muslims and Serbs Christians. What is worse, Fleming's words suggest that he would be quite happy were the things other way round, and America stood firmly behind a Christian group slaughtering Muslims.
Serbs do not need nor should they welcome supporters like Mr. Fleming. People using Serbs in order to practice their own racism can only facilitate the continuous demonisation of Serbs as people.
If you desire your clash of "civilizations" against the Muslims, please leave Serbs out if it as we are not racists.
Madam Jokic,you have your clash of civilizations whether Dr. Fleming visits Belgrade or dogs walk on their hind legs and speak English (kind of like you).They at least are serious-the Moslems that is...you know the people that are chasing the Christians out of Kosovo.I don't expect you to do anything but tearfully scream "racist" if well...Christians-Serb and American or Russian want to "clash" back.But do yourself and your family a favor and be quiet while the men fight.
Mr Jokic
>>While the anti-imperial stance is more than welcome, it is reduced to absurdity by suggesting that the empire decides whom to support against who based on their religious affiliation. <<
The Empire decides whom to support based on expediency, not religious affiliation. They will work with the devil if it achieves their long term expansionary objectives. Lots of evidence of that to date (Pol Pot, Pinochet)
B92 is littered with headlines about the Euro-Atlantic integration. Serbs stood/stand in the way of that integration. ALbanians welcome it with open arms because it achieves their objective of Greater Albania.
I suppose it would be naive to expect the Empire to allow Serbs to stifle their plans just because they are Christian. Someone else has already made the observation that a Slavic Orthodox Christians are more expendable than the Catholic/Protestant variety.
Good news is that the Albanians have finaly come out and openly declared their aim of creating Greater Albania. There is no turning back for them, but at least no well-meaning leftie at siberianlight can argue that Project Greater Albania is fiction.
Albanians form “movement for unification” http://www.b92.net/eng/news/latest.php.
Let’s see how long it takes USA and EU to denounce this act of agression against Montenegro, Macedonia and Greece.
After reading sirivanhoe98's excellent comment,I realize I made a mistake in adressing correspondent "Jokic" as Madam. I sincerely apologize.I confused the the effeminate content of your disgraceful criticism of Dr. Fleming with your apparent gender.I assume you might be a Christian, so in the ongoing and never-ending (per the Koran)struggle with Islam could you knit some socks for the soldiers?
"Dr. Fleming wondered in a previous column why Illinois Governor Rob Blagojevich didn’t act like a traditional Serb. Well, even in Serbia, there are many who are trying to pretend they’re not who they are and it’s obvious by the vote that there are a lot of them. Globalism has a way rending one’s ignat useless. Gov. Blagojevich, meet Boris Tadic."
****
I understand that a now retired Serbian-American Maryland Congresswoman was thrashed for expressing the mainstream Serb position.
This manner was evident in a Illinois campaign involving a Serb-American other than Blagojevich.
In the US, it's political suicide for a Serb-American to express mainstream Serb views.
This is reprehensible given that such views aren't offensive or against the best interests of the US.
Folks of some other ethnic backgrounds can freely express support for the land of their ethno-religious origin. I get personally disgusted with these kind of double standards.
I also loathe half hearted attempts at improving the situation:
Serbs aren't the only ones facing similar problems.
http://www.russiablog.org/2008/05/world_russian_forum_2008.php#comments
On a somewhat related note, the part-Serb/part Slovenian John Voinovich insulted Serb-Americans at a Columbia University gathering, when he towed the ICG line about former Yugoslavia