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	<title>Comments on: Beowulf II</title>
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		<title>By: PcH</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-142113</link>
		<dc:creator>PcH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 15:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I could not participate fully in the discussion on Beowulf because I was amidst changing ISPs.&#160;  I am adding this in for reference&#039;s sake, for anyone who may be chcking bak here.

I did make some references to the Book of Enoch; there is some literature of varying qualities discussing the possible influence of Enoch on Beowulf.&#160;  Here is a relevant passage from the beginning of Enoch relating to Grendel&#039;s lineage from Cain, for anyone who may be interested:

&lt;blockquote&gt;And thence I went elsewhither, to the mountain of hard rock.  And therein were four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth; how smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to behold!
Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said to me:  “These hollow places have been made for this same purpose that the spirits of the souls of the dead should gather therein, yea that all the souls of men’s children should here gather.  And these places have been made to take them until their day of judgement and until their appointed time, until the great judgment cometh upon them.”
Then I saw a dead man making suit, and his voice went forth to heaven for his sake.&#160;   And I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said to him:&#160;  “This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and bringeth suit unto heaven?”
And he answered me saying:&#160;  “This is the spirit which went forth from Abel whom his brother &lt;b&gt;Cain&lt;/b&gt; slew, and he maketh his suit against him until his seed be blotted out from the face of the earth and his seed be blotted out from among men&#039;s seed.”
Then I asked after it and after all the hollow places:&#160;  “Why is one sundered from the other?”
And he answered and said to me:&#160; “These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be set apart.&#160;  And such a division hath been make for the souls of the righteous, wherein there is the bright spring of water.&#160;  And such hath been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment hath not been wreaked on them in their lifetime.&#160;  Here shall their souls be set apart in great pain until the great doomsday and punishment and torment of them who curse for ever and retribution for their souls.&#160;  There shall he bind them for ever; and such a lot hath been made for them, their spirits who make their suit, who confess their destruction when they were slain in the days of sinners.&#160;  Such hath been made for men’s spirits who were not righteous but sinners, who were full of transgression, and of the transgressors shall they be mates; but their spirits shall not be slain on doomsday nor shall they be raised thence.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could not participate fully in the discussion on Beowulf because I was amidst changing ISPs.&nbsp;  I am adding this in for reference's sake, for anyone who may be chcking bak here.</p>
<p>I did make some references to the Book of Enoch; there is some literature of varying qualities discussing the possible influence of Enoch on Beowulf.&nbsp;  Here is a relevant passage from the beginning of Enoch relating to Grendel's lineage from Cain, for anyone who may be interested:</p>
<blockquote><p>And thence I went elsewhither, to the mountain of hard rock.  And therein were four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth; how smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to behold!<br />
Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said to me:  “These hollow places have been made for this same purpose that the spirits of the souls of the dead should gather therein, yea that all the souls of men’s children should here gather.  And these places have been made to take them until their day of judgement and until their appointed time, until the great judgment cometh upon them.”<br />
Then I saw a dead man making suit, and his voice went forth to heaven for his sake.&nbsp;   And I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said to him:&nbsp;  “This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and bringeth suit unto heaven?”<br />
And he answered me saying:&nbsp;  “This is the spirit which went forth from Abel whom his brother <b>Cain</b> slew, and he maketh his suit against him until his seed be blotted out from the face of the earth and his seed be blotted out from among men's seed.”<br />
Then I asked after it and after all the hollow places:&nbsp;  “Why is one sundered from the other?”<br />
And he answered and said to me:&nbsp; “These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be set apart.&nbsp;  And such a division hath been make for the souls of the righteous, wherein there is the bright spring of water.&nbsp;  And such hath been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment hath not been wreaked on them in their lifetime.&nbsp;  Here shall their souls be set apart in great pain until the great doomsday and punishment and torment of them who curse for ever and retribution for their souls.&nbsp;  There shall he bind them for ever; and such a lot hath been made for them, their spirits who make their suit, who confess their destruction when they were slain in the days of sinners.&nbsp;  Such hath been made for men’s spirits who were not righteous but sinners, who were full of transgression, and of the transgressors shall they be mates; but their spirits shall not be slain on doomsday nor shall they be raised thence.”</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: robert reavis</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-106451</link>
		<dc:creator>robert reavis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-106451</guid>
		<description>Dr Fleming,
  I wish you would introduce us to the Dragon episode and perhaps start a new thread. ( or not as you wish.) I am looking forward to the conversation on what I consider to be the best part of the poem. -- his final struggle and defeat of the dragon and then death.
  Reading it again this evening --- I was wondering if this ending should be considered a tragedy or comedy; or if those terms even apply to such a  poem as this. I was moved by the scene in which his loyal friend and servant stands by Beowulf  to the very end while  the other twelve removed to the woods and hid.  It reminded me of another group of twelve in which not even the leader, St. Peter, stood firm when the dragon&#039;s breath grew heated. 
   There are many other memorable scenes  in this final conflict but I write to simply get the conversation started again and as a ploy to get Dr. Fleming and others to help bring this delightful conversation about Beowulf to an honorable ending.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Fleming,<br />
  I wish you would introduce us to the Dragon episode and perhaps start a new thread. ( or not as you wish.) I am looking forward to the conversation on what I consider to be the best part of the poem. -- his final struggle and defeat of the dragon and then death.<br />
  Reading it again this evening --- I was wondering if this ending should be considered a tragedy or comedy; or if those terms even apply to such a  poem as this. I was moved by the scene in which his loyal friend and servant stands by Beowulf  to the very end while  the other twelve removed to the woods and hid.  It reminded me of another group of twelve in which not even the leader, St. Peter, stood firm when the dragon's breath grew heated.<br />
   There are many other memorable scenes  in this final conflict but I write to simply get the conversation started again and as a ploy to get Dr. Fleming and others to help bring this delightful conversation about Beowulf to an honorable ending.</p>
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		<title>By: Allen Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-105445</link>
		<dc:creator>Allen Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-105445</guid>
		<description>The Song of Roland seems good to me too if no one objects, since it&#039;s another one of those works I&#039;ve meant to get around to reading for years.  It&#039;s also easy to find both online and off, unlike, say, Digenes Akrites, which I cant even find in Greek, much less English, after a year of searching. It&#039;s also relatively short so it might last just long enough for scoundrels like myself to finally get a copy of the Cochin book after so much procrastination.

If Dr Fleming wishes to let participants do more directing, then perhaps, since we have people here with knolwedge of Germanic languages, literature, and history, some other work of Germanic literature would be appropriate if we dont go to the Song of Roland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Song of Roland seems good to me too if no one objects, since it's another one of those works I've meant to get around to reading for years.  It's also easy to find both online and off, unlike, say, Digenes Akrites, which I cant even find in Greek, much less English, after a year of searching. It's also relatively short so it might last just long enough for scoundrels like myself to finally get a copy of the Cochin book after so much procrastination.</p>
<p>If Dr Fleming wishes to let participants do more directing, then perhaps, since we have people here with knolwedge of Germanic languages, literature, and history, some other work of Germanic literature would be appropriate if we dont go to the Song of Roland.</p>
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		<title>By: robert reavis</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-105128</link>
		<dc:creator>robert reavis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 03:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-105128</guid>
		<description>&quot;Just saw the new cinema “Beowulf.” It strikes me as a rather silly comic book affair without any reflection of the moral weight of the original. &quot; 
 Yes, I watched it this evening and it wasn&#039;t serious in any aspect. I would recommend a serious man save his time and money for Sturgis if he is really committed to a pure life of the senses , what Hollywood seems so frequently to call aesthetics --- which is all the new Beowulf film is.  A complete waste of time. Read the poem, enjoy it and reflect upon it but never ask a modernist or &quot;post christian&quot; what their view of the poem is.  They can never move their mind beyond cultural destruction, or personal destruction laced with the arrogant assurance that progress is being made and they are some how contributors . As Frank O&#039;Conner said of James Joyce, Ulysses, --it has  become &quot; A CRASHING BORE !!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Just saw the new cinema “Beowulf.” It strikes me as a rather silly comic book affair without any reflection of the moral weight of the original. "<br />
 Yes, I watched it this evening and it wasn't serious in any aspect. I would recommend a serious man save his time and money for Sturgis if he is really committed to a pure life of the senses , what Hollywood seems so frequently to call aesthetics --- which is all the new Beowulf film is.  A complete waste of time. Read the poem, enjoy it and reflect upon it but never ask a modernist or "post christian" what their view of the poem is.  They can never move their mind beyond cultural destruction, or personal destruction laced with the arrogant assurance that progress is being made and they are some how contributors . As Frank O'Conner said of James Joyce, Ulysses, --it has  become " A CRASHING BORE !!!</p>
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		<title>By: robert reavis</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-104370</link>
		<dc:creator>robert reavis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-104370</guid>
		<description>Dr. Wilson @71 writes :
&quot; Like it or not, the movies are the predominant art form of our time,&quot;

I tend to agree with you professor,  although I would put myself in the category of not liking it. The last time I saw Dr. Fleming I offered an unsolicited suggestion that he see &#039;No Country for Old Men.&#039; It was if I had suggested he try Mogan David as a wine to compliment his medium rare, Kansas City strip sirloin --seared and grilled to tender and juicy perfection. I make no defense to his stern tongue lashing --it was all true -- except for me, the movie portrayed an actual sign of the times, albeit the evil of our times.
  For my penance I suggest we read The Song of Roland and then Cochin. Or Cochin and then Roland. It is in praise of rear guard efforts ( like the ones we &quot;Unpatriotic American&quot; types are supposedly fighting ) as well as honor, friendship and other permanent things we hold dear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Wilson @71 writes :<br />
" Like it or not, the movies are the predominant art form of our time,"</p>
<p>I tend to agree with you professor,  although I would put myself in the category of not liking it. The last time I saw Dr. Fleming I offered an unsolicited suggestion that he see 'No Country for Old Men.' It was if I had suggested he try Mogan David as a wine to compliment his medium rare, Kansas City strip sirloin --seared and grilled to tender and juicy perfection. I make no defense to his stern tongue lashing --it was all true -- except for me, the movie portrayed an actual sign of the times, albeit the evil of our times.<br />
  For my penance I suggest we read The Song of Roland and then Cochin. Or Cochin and then Roland. It is in praise of rear guard efforts ( like the ones we "Unpatriotic American" types are supposedly fighting ) as well as honor, friendship and other permanent things we hold dear.</p>
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		<title>By: TJF</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-104046</link>
		<dc:creator>TJF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-104046</guid>
		<description>I agree with my friend Professor Wilson that in general a film should be judged on its merits more than on its fidelity to an original text.  I would say, though, that I dislike even awell-made  film that is faithless to the spirit of the original.  Even historical films like Braveheart, which unncessarily introduce deliberate and impossible  lies (e.g. a Romance between William Wallace and the wife of Edward II) annoy me so much that I find it difficult to enjoy the film.  As the years go by, I refuse to see any movie made by Mel Gibson--as opposed to the good films in which he has appeared.  In Braveheart I only remember with affection the praise of Latin and the Old Mass and the brilliant performance of Patrick McGoohan as Edward I.  As for the 300 Spartans, I agree entirely that despite Egan&#039;s wooden performance and other failings, the filmmakers tried to convey the popular tradition (perhaps more from Plutarch--from whom many of the best lines are taken--than Herodotus) of Thermopylae.    The other night, slumming it, we watched the 1957 Hamnmer film &quot;The Curse of Frankenstein.&quot;  Despite a pretty good performance by Peter Cushing, the film stinks and is vastly inferior to the original piece of junk introducing &quot;Karloff.&quot;


As much as I enjoy movies, I am not so ready to call them art in any sense that might include the symphonies of Haydn or even the novels of Dickens.  There is too much easy trickery in film, and as the years go by, and films become more what they are and less novels or plays turned into movies, the evils of the form become more and more apparent.  The nearest to art film has reached has been 1) good silents, where the absence of dialogue forces the director to work hard (Note how John Ford, a silent director originally, cared so little about dialogue) and 2) a few films made by artsy directors, nearly all foreign, like Fellini, Bergman, and Kurosawa.  My favorite movies tend to be based on good scripts.  Preston Sturgis was a playwright before going to Hollywood and his screen plays could mostly be performed on stage--though he did make excellent use of locations in Sullivan&#039;s Travels, The Palm Beach Story, etc.  

Back to Beowulf:  Let&#039;s wrap up next week by talking about the Dragon episode, and even before we are through, let us pick another book.  At some point, I want to do Cochin, but before then, what?  This time I will take the most appealing (easiest for me) suggestion, and will try to steer a course between earlier discussions, which always included long-winded posts from me, and this discussion, which has been directed more by the participants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with my friend Professor Wilson that in general a film should be judged on its merits more than on its fidelity to an original text.  I would say, though, that I dislike even awell-made  film that is faithless to the spirit of the original.  Even historical films like Braveheart, which unncessarily introduce deliberate and impossible  lies (e.g. a Romance between William Wallace and the wife of Edward II) annoy me so much that I find it difficult to enjoy the film.  As the years go by, I refuse to see any movie made by Mel Gibson--as opposed to the good films in which he has appeared.  In Braveheart I only remember with affection the praise of Latin and the Old Mass and the brilliant performance of Patrick McGoohan as Edward I.  As for the 300 Spartans, I agree entirely that despite Egan's wooden performance and other failings, the filmmakers tried to convey the popular tradition (perhaps more from Plutarch--from whom many of the best lines are taken--than Herodotus) of Thermopylae.    The other night, slumming it, we watched the 1957 Hamnmer film "The Curse of Frankenstein."  Despite a pretty good performance by Peter Cushing, the film stinks and is vastly inferior to the original piece of junk introducing "Karloff."</p>
<p>As much as I enjoy movies, I am not so ready to call them art in any sense that might include the symphonies of Haydn or even the novels of Dickens.  There is too much easy trickery in film, and as the years go by, and films become more what they are and less novels or plays turned into movies, the evils of the form become more and more apparent.  The nearest to art film has reached has been 1) good silents, where the absence of dialogue forces the director to work hard (Note how John Ford, a silent director originally, cared so little about dialogue) and 2) a few films made by artsy directors, nearly all foreign, like Fellini, Bergman, and Kurosawa.  My favorite movies tend to be based on good scripts.  Preston Sturgis was a playwright before going to Hollywood and his screen plays could mostly be performed on stage--though he did make excellent use of locations in Sullivan's Travels, The Palm Beach Story, etc.  </p>
<p>Back to Beowulf:  Let's wrap up next week by talking about the Dragon episode, and even before we are through, let us pick another book.  At some point, I want to do Cochin, but before then, what?  This time I will take the most appealing (easiest for me) suggestion, and will try to steer a course between earlier discussions, which always included long-winded posts from me, and this discussion, which has been directed more by the participants.</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-104007</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-104007</guid>
		<description>Bruce.  I am not a purist when it comes to this sort of thing.  Like it or not, the movies are the predominant art form of our time, and I have never yet seen literature transferred to film with complete success.  I am not defending any of the failures of the cinema. But the &quot;Beowulf and Grendel&quot; film did, I thought, convey something of the reality of pagan Northern Europe,  have believable human characters, and translate some of the fantastic elements into plausibility.  This in comparison to the ludicrous current film.  I feel the same way about the old 1950s film of &quot;The 300 Spartans.&quot;  Whatever flaws it might have, and  our most estemmed Editor has previously pointed these out, it did convey some sense of history, heroism, and patriotism.  In contrast to the recent  disgusting, laughable video-game-inspired, multicultural movie of the same story.  It is the difference, in both cases,  between civilised realism and nihilism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce.  I am not a purist when it comes to this sort of thing.  Like it or not, the movies are the predominant art form of our time, and I have never yet seen literature transferred to film with complete success.  I am not defending any of the failures of the cinema. But the "Beowulf and Grendel" film did, I thought, convey something of the reality of pagan Northern Europe,  have believable human characters, and translate some of the fantastic elements into plausibility.  This in comparison to the ludicrous current film.  I feel the same way about the old 1950s film of "The 300 Spartans."  Whatever flaws it might have, and  our most estemmed Editor has previously pointed these out, it did convey some sense of history, heroism, and patriotism.  In contrast to the recent  disgusting, laughable video-game-inspired, multicultural movie of the same story.  It is the difference, in both cases,  between civilised realism and nihilism.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-103845</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-103845</guid>
		<description>Beowulf and Grendel - don&#039;t bother with it Mr Reavis.

A year ago or so I was dumb enough to obtain the movie &quot;Beowulf and Grendel&quot; from the Brevard library. I didn&#039;t think it was at all faithful to the spirit. Grendel was avenging himself because his father was killed in front of him by Hrothgar&#039;s people.  There seemed to be lots of modern, moral relativist thinking in the film. I also thought the red-headed slut character (who at one point is raped by Grendel and also beds down with Beowulf) was ridiculous. She reminded me of one of the hate-the-world &quot;goth&quot; (no-pun-intended) girls I attended high-school with. About the only thing that was good was the cinematography. &quot;The Thirteenth Warrior&quot; is a less objectionable (albeit even further from the original) version.

I don&#039;t think this sort of thing lends itself to film treatment. In retrospect, I&#039;d spend my time reading an alternative translation or some of the critical essays I haven&#039;t got to yet.

I also haven&#039;t bothered with watching Brad Pitt as Achilles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beowulf and Grendel - don't bother with it Mr Reavis.</p>
<p>A year ago or so I was dumb enough to obtain the movie "Beowulf and Grendel" from the Brevard library. I didn't think it was at all faithful to the spirit. Grendel was avenging himself because his father was killed in front of him by Hrothgar's people.  There seemed to be lots of modern, moral relativist thinking in the film. I also thought the red-headed slut character (who at one point is raped by Grendel and also beds down with Beowulf) was ridiculous. She reminded me of one of the hate-the-world "goth" (no-pun-intended) girls I attended high-school with. About the only thing that was good was the cinematography. "The Thirteenth Warrior" is a less objectionable (albeit even further from the original) version.</p>
<p>I don't think this sort of thing lends itself to film treatment. In retrospect, I'd spend my time reading an alternative translation or some of the critical essays I haven't got to yet.</p>
<p>I also haven't bothered with watching Brad Pitt as Achilles.</p>
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		<title>By: robert reavis</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-103281</link>
		<dc:creator>robert reavis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 14:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-103281</guid>
		<description>Dr. Wilson,
  I have not seen either movie but since today is friday and the weekend invites one to at least a little leisure, I will watch them this weekend. I am glad you have joined the conversation over here and look forward to your thoughts on Beowulf.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Wilson,<br />
  I have not seen either movie but since today is friday and the weekend invites one to at least a little leisure, I will watch them this weekend. I am glad you have joined the conversation over here and look forward to your thoughts on Beowulf.</p>
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		<title>By: Clyde Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2008/02/20/beowulf-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-103195</link>
		<dc:creator>Clyde Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 12:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=517#comment-103195</guid>
		<description>&quot;Fools rush in, etc...&quot;  Just saw the  new cinema &quot;Beowulf.&quot;  It strikes me as a rather silly comic book affair without any reflection of the moral weight of the original.  I thought the film &quot;Beowulf and Grendel&quot; a few years ago was more faithful to the spirit if not the letter of the source.  What do you learned folks think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Fools rush in, etc..."  Just saw the  new cinema "Beowulf."  It strikes me as a rather silly comic book affair without any reflection of the moral weight of the original.  I thought the film "Beowulf and Grendel" a few years ago was more faithful to the spirit if not the letter of the source.  What do you learned folks think?</p>
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