The Disharmonious “Troika”
by Srdja Trifkovic
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The Contact Group “troika”—Aleksandar Botsan-Harchenko representing Russia, Frank Wiesner representing the United States, and Wolfgang Ischinger representing the European Union—visited Belgrade and Pristina on August 10-11, marking a new start in the search for a solution to the vexed problem of Kosovo. The three diplomats are now preparing a report for the Contact Group on their visit to the region. Srdja Trifkovic discussed the background of the troika’s mission on CKCU 93.1 FM in Ottawa.
ST: In late July we witnessed the collapse of Western efforts, led by the US, to present a Security Council resolution that would be essentially in line with the Ahtisaari’s proposal—which is to say, that would grant Kosovo-Metohija independent statehood, under whatever name and through whatever procedure. The decision by the US and the EU to give up on further efforts at the UNSC and to return to the auspices of the Contact Group may be seen as a victory for the Russian diplomacy. Indirectly it was a victory for Serbia, too, except that all Serbian efforts in and of themselves would not have been sufficient, were it not for the strategic decision that the government in Moscow had made that this was an issue on which they would make a stand.
Within the Contact Group, and now within the Troika, there is disagreement between the participants on what should be the final objective and also how it should be obtained. The Russians are particularly insistent that the whole process needs to remain under the control, guidance and auspices of the UNSC. The US, and some countries of the EU, would like to transform the Contact Group into a decision-making body in its own right, subjected to majority vote, which would not only mediate between the parties but also initiate particular models for the solution, and then actively encourage the parties to embrace them.
The key issue is whether the US will follow the path of unilateral recognition if there is no agreed solution at the end of the four moths’ period—and in my view it is obvious that there is not going to be one. For as long as the Albanian side believes that the US will embark on unilateral recognition, we are not going to see any progress. Hard-line terms in which Agim Ceku outlined the Albanian position when the Troika arrived in Pristina over the weekend is indicative both of the domestic political pressures which the Albanian leaders feel, and the fact that the US regards the issue of Kosovo independence as a test of strength, as a test of its ability to impose its will in spite of Russian objections. To the Bush administration this is important in the light of a string of failures of US foreign policy in the Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea, etc.
Within the Troika we have a tenuous balance, with three parties with widely different objectives pretending to be acting unanimously:
—The Americans want to recognize an independent Kosovo broadly in line with Ahtisaari plan, for reasons that are either bad or unfathomable, and appear to be determined to do so at the end of the current 120-day negotiating period.
—The EU does not have an agreed policy—or, rather, it has the pretence of a consensus on the acceptance of the Ahtisaari plan provided it is adopted through the UN. In another words, if it doesn’t happen and if the U.S. press the Europeans to follow the unilateral path, I am confident that there will be divisions within the EU. The fabled common foreign policy will prove to be a mirage.
—Finally we have the Russians, very firm in their insistence that there cannot be no solution that would bypass the Security Council, and who are opposed to any solution that would be imposed against the will of the parties concerned, including of course the Republic of Serbia.
Q: You met with the Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica in July. What does he expect, in your opinion, from the forthcoming negotiations?
ST: I am not sure what he expects, but I am sure that Kostunica is rock-solid on the assumptions and principles on which those negotiations are to be conducted, and on the outcome that would be acceptable to the Serbian side. That outcome can be a model of self-rule that would include all of the most advanced features of autonomous status enjoyed by other minorities around the world. Independence is completely unacceptable to Kostunica, however. Right now he may be contemplating the reaction that Serbia would be forced to adopt in case the US and other countries extend independence unilaterally. Obviously, Serbia has to take stock of its options very seriously.
Serbia’s reaction would depend to some extend on the balance of forces within the ruling coalition in Belgrade. Within the ruling coalition we still have an ongoing tension between the “pro-Western reformists”—i.e., the Democratic Party of Boris Tadic, which keeps talking of Euro-Atlantic integrations (in other words not only EU but also NATO)—and Prime minister Kostunica and his party, the Democratic Party of Serbia, which is very careful to avoid the “Atlantic” part of this equation; they call only for “European” integrations. They are aware that it is inconsistent to expect Russia’s support in keeping Kosovo on the one hand, and at the same time talking about the integration into a military structure that is geopolitically by nature and of necessity anti-Russian. NATO does not have any other purpose in life any more, except to act as the geopolitical Cordon Sanitaire that seeks to surround Russia and reduce her to the level of the Grand Duchy of Moscow of 500 years ago.
Q: Some Albanians in Kosovo threaten violence if they do not get independence. Such blackmail should not be tolerated, yet the USA, Canada and others take this as a valid argument to grant Kosovo independence. Does the US have different yardsticks by which it judges different situations?
ST: We have seen this “situational morality” in the Yugoslav crisis time and over again. The threat of secession by the Krajina Serbs from Croatia, or the Bosnian Serbs from Bosnia-Herzegovina, was met with extreme hostility in Washington, and it was countered with the assertion that territorial integrity of all recognized states had to be upheld at any price. This went so far as to prompt the US to aid and abet Franjo Tudjman’s massive ethnic cleansing of the Serbs from the Krajina in August 1995. On the other hand, territorial integrity is disregarded vis-à-vis Serbia itself, when it comes to severing one seventh of her sovereign territory. The Albanians’ threat of violence is, as you say, treated as a valid argument to grant them independence, whereas invented or exaggerated stories of violence by the Serbs in 1998-99 are invoked as grounds for taking Kosovo away from Serbia. We are looking at pseudo-reality—like Alice in Wonderland, where, once you go through the looking glass, even lies loose all pretence to credibility.
Q: Canadian foreign minister Peter MacKey still maintains that “the Government of Canada believes that the comprehensive recommendations by Mr. Ahtisaari meet the goal [of] extending decentralized powers to municipalities as well as giving the Serb minority extensive rights and security under the supervision of the international community [which] corresponds to the European Union’s multi-ethnic vision for the Western Balkans . . . ” Is this a viable vision?
ST: He does not realize that the notion of multi-ethnic harmony in the context of Kosovo is as valid, and as likely to come into being, as is the notion of inter-religious and inter-ethnic harmony between Israelis and the Palestinians in a joint state, in which each community would grant the other full rights, and they will all joint hands and sing Kumbaya . . . If the Ahtisaari plan is so wonderful for the Serbs, than it should be equally applicable to the Albanians if you change the names of the parties. The difference is that it would not require changing international borders and it would not require violating 300 years of the Westphalian system of state sovereignty—not to mention the Helsinki final Act and the UN Charter.
The fundamental issue on which the proponents of multilateralism in international relations such as Canada fail to respond to the Russian and Serbian argument is how do you envisage the survival of an international system in which a sovereign nation state, a bona fide member of the international community, can have a part of its sovereign territory take away from it by fiat, by an imposed decision of the rest of the world. What a precedent it would set to the rest of the world! When US bureaucrats Nicolas Burns or Daniel Fried say that “no precedent would be set,” they are deluded. A bureaucrat cannot control reality by the force of his public statement. If Kosovo is recognized it would give a signal to each and every dissatisfied ethnic minority in the world that: 1) it should use violence in pursuit of its separatist objectives and 2) if it is ruthless enough and persistent enough, it will get what it wants. It will have consequences not only for the Tamils in Shri Lanka, or the Russians in Crimea, or Hungarians in Transylvania, or the Muslims in Kashmir, but potentially one day for the Mexicans in New Mexico, Arizona, Texas and Southern California.
(Partial transcript of an interview with Srdja Trifkovic on CKCU-FM 93.1.
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1 Comment by Michael Kenny on 17 August 2007:
Has nobody ever thought of a Government of Ireland Act 1920-type solution for Kosovo? That act partitioned Ireland, but both parts were to remain British. Why not partition Kosovo, with a small part, inhabited mainly by Serbs, keeping its present status and the rest becoming an autonomous province of Serbia, with a very wide range of autonomous powers: police, justice, education, transport, health, tourism etc.? Basically, the central government in Belgrade would be responsible for foreign affairs, defence, border control and currency and the rest would be left to the provincial government. Needless to say, there would be no Kosovo “nationality” or passports and provincial legislation would have to be in both languages.
That way, Serbia’s territory is not dismembered without its consent but the Kosovo Albanians effectively do what they like in Kosovo. Serbia then accedes to the EU and everybody becomes EU citizens. If Kosovo became independent before accession, it would have to apply for admission as a separate Member State whereas this way, it would accede on Serbia’s coat tails, so to speak.
2 Comment by Maie Kark on 18 August 2007:
Bravo, Michael Kenny! It’s just the thought I’ve been trying to come up with. Why hasn’t anybody thought about it before – just leaving northern Kosovo with Serbia and giving ‘broad’ autonomy to the rest? Why indeed? I think that the Serbs should start asserting themselves more and seriously now. They don’t have anything to lose anyway! And as for the thought and dream of becoming a member of the EU – better forget about it, or at least not be dependent on it. Why not wish to be a country like Switzerland instead – prosperous and independent of all? Take it from the one who knows – while you are out, you wish in, but when you are in, you almost wish out. It’s bureaucratic, stupid and strangulating, dominated by lefties and led by Marxist ex-commie leaders (like Solana, Barroso, etc.) and the level of thinking is so conform when they are trying to reach consensuses.
Stand up for yourselves, Serbs!
Greetings from Sweden
3 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 18 August 2007:
I think the Ireland model would be acceptable if Kosovo was to be lost to Serbians. However, right now there is a great deal of press (and pressure) on Serbian people (from what I could find in local Serbian sources) – which indicates that the West (NATO included) ran out of carrots for the inept Serbian political elite. Since the world has been getting a continuous stream of Albanian attrocities, high degree of criminality, planned attack on Fort Dix, NJ, in that manner, little by little, Serbians were given some modest exculpatory value. Therefore Serbians should now press on with asking that Albanian mistaken creation (London 1912) – should be reversed and the country of Albania should be abolished. Perfectly in line with Mohammadanist’s thinking (no matter how large or small) they have to work on converting (or killing) the Kafiri (infidels). So the Ireland model (in spite of its very promissing structure) is a reward to the criminality of the Albanians which should not be tolerated. One of the first orders of business should be to repatriate all those “newly minted” Albanians who came from Albania into Kosovo in order to accomplish this demographic overthrow.
4 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 18 August 2007:
In my own rewinding of this horror film, Rusophobia could possibly be at the root of poor thinking in Europe. Naturally that the Russians always wanted to have access to the “warm waters” – the Mediterranean, Bosporus (I think that’s how it’s spelled) was a key point of access from the Black sea.
Middle of the 19th Century with Britain at the peak of its Imperial power, as the Ottoman Empire was loosing its grip on European soil, the Russians have moved to establish dominance over the Christian sections of the Holy Land. Church of the Nativity (an Eastern Orthodox Christian Church) was the issue of contention.
The Russians were the only bona fide Eastern Orthodox Christian state at that time (in the eyes of the West). The Roman Catholic France has engineered the first set of conflicts (in the field of diplomacy, at the onset) which later escalated into getting the Anglican British Empire – equally eager to suppress Eastern Orthodoxy at all cost. Ottoman principalities in which Russia was acknowledged as a special guardian of the Orthodox Church – was not a concept that the Catholic France and Anglican Britain would ever endorse.
Even under the best possible circumstances if we presume that the Russian insistence on control of the Holy Land’s Eastern Orthodox Christian Churches had no ulterior motive (like the access to the warm Mediterranean waters – the British naval power would not enjoy seeing an almost landlocked Russian navy start to compete for trade routes and naval supremacy.
Hence, the alliance between the British and French took place (since the French held the deed to the Christian places at that time). An awful lot of words that could be summed up in only one: Russophobia.
March 28, 1854 Britain and France declared war on Russia. So much for the issues of who the aggressors are (were). Neither side won any substantial victory until 1912 when London unilaterally decided that the remnants of the Ottoman Empire on the Balkan peninsula should be given independence and called Albania. This is an appropriate place to apply the “divide et impera” – used by the British, since the main conflict was proposed to have been between the Russians the Turks.
However the plan backfired and Albania was created. To me, these are all perfectly valid reasons why Albania should be abolished.
Hence the root of today’s problems in Europe (not so much Serbia – but the whole of Europe) was instigated by the insatiable appetites of the British Empire and their need to curtail any Russian expansion. The CURE: Abolish Albania and reverse the mistakes of the colonially land hungry Britain. What we are witnessing today could be termed as “Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose” – not much has changed. In a strangest way the British, along with the French were the hair-brain power for the treaty of Versailles which directly led to WW2. I think that it was Dr. Trifkovic who once coined the term “perfidity of Albion”, there is no better example of such actions (the Crimean War, the Versailles Treaty, recent NATO aggression on former Yugoslavia, today’s presence in offering a solution to Serbian Kosovo).
5 Comment by Philip Candido on 18 August 2007:
The Russians were the only bona fide Eastern Orthodox Christian state at that time (in the eyes of the West). The Roman Catholic France has engineered the first set of conflicts (in the field of diplomacy, at the onset) which later escalated into getting the Anglican British Empire – equally eager to suppress Eastern Orthodoxy at all cost.
True, however my only caveat here is that France for many years used diplomatic relations with the Turks to protect the rites of Eastern Orthodox Christians in the Holy Land. France also lent material support to the Greek Revolution. I disagree that France’s Catholicism or England’s Anglicanism had much to do it any more than a fear of Eastern Orthodoxy as much as the perceived political gain in keeping Russia hemmed in the east. Secondly France at this time had an anti-Catholic government made up of enlightenment know nothings in Napoleon III’s French Empire. Thirdly this wasn’t the 4th crusade, which in its own right had little to do with a desire to destroy eastern Christendom as it had to do with the greed of Venice to get its hands on Constantinople’s coffers; though the impact upon East-West relations has never healed sad to say.
It comes down to England wanting to control the game. Russia made its appearance in Europe to fight Napoleon, England wanted to simply say “thanks, don’t let the door hit you in the behind on your way out” and the Crimean war was perceived as a way to accomplish this. France’s interest was closer ties to England for France to settle the score with Russia.
Neither side won any substantial victory until 1912 when London unilaterally decided that the remnants of the Ottoman Empire on the Balkan peninsula should be given independence and called Albania……However the plan backfired and Albania was created. To me, these are all perfectly valid reasons why Albania should be abolished.
Now you have really hit the nail with something much larger than a hammer. Almost all of our modern political nightmares are a creation of the British Empire. The endless civil wars and dictatorships in Africa, are the result of British politicians drawing lines on a map of Africa in ignorance of tribal boundaries. The British and the atheistic French government after World War I drew lines on a map, creating countries with cultures that hated each other and were kept in line with Turkish rifles for years, like Khurds, Sunnis and Shia in Iraq, who had their own territorial arrangements with the Turks. Suddenly they found themselves in a country with a Sunni King. The Lebanese at least got their traditional territory back, before being abandoned by everyone in the west who were too scared of offending the Mujahedeen, even Italia my home country sadly.
6 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 18 August 2007:
Thank you Phillip (a very common Christian first name in Serbia (one of the Serbian princes – sons to Alexander II) and (even the pre-Christian Greece, as the father of Alexander the Great). I am not entirely sure that the British are the sole culprits of Russophobia, so I gently drew a line, just touching the Treaty of Versailles which now started including the Germans in this Alliance of Russophobes. Putin’s transAsian flights by his heavy bombers were only more salt into the wound of the NATO (neo-fascist alliance) followed by Russia-China war games. They were joined by troops from the other four nations of the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation – Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan. Naturally that the “West” is trying its damndest to repel the percieved threat from Russia. In all of the above I agree with your obesrvations, with the exception that my conclusion leads towards abolishing the last vestiges of the Ottomam Empire on European soil. Yes I did have Napoleon III in mind but he only had marginal impact on my “abolish Albania” conclusion.
7 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 18 August 2007:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6950986.stm
8 Comment by Johan Dieckmann on 18 August 2007:
(Re. #5)
“… Almost all of our modern political nightmares are a creation of the British Empire. …”
How true. Just look at that thirteen-colony creation of the Crown, whose rich slave & land-owning aristocrats became famous for a daring tax evasion caper; Das eingebildete Imperium to whose troubles the Chronicles web site is dedicated.
9 Comment by Philip Candido on 18 August 2007:
I agree with all your observations about NATO. It is declining into irrelevance every time it enters into any military engagement, and as far as I am concerned is guilty of war crimes in Serbia for killing innocent civilians. As a Serb you no doubt despise them more than I do. If NATO really wanted to do some good it might try putting the Turks back into Mongolia where they came from and give Anatolia back to the Greeks who had it for 1200 years.
NATO is entirely irrelevant, it existed to repel a Soviet attack, which it scarcely could have done anyway since no one but Reagan would have had the political will to really do what was necessary. Not that Russia is a benign power, but it is not the evil empire anymore, and Western media is trying to use that lingering impression to drum up opposition to her. Why? Because Asia is the future, the west is dying. Our birth rates are low, the dollar’s status as the reserve currency is evaporating (and it never should have occupied that role to begin with) and we can’t dictate to Russia anymore, that is why the west is all drummed up. I’m no Putin admirer, but what else would one expect him to do when the West talks about him like a terrorist and then expects a kiss and a hug at these summits?
10 Comment by Philip Candido on 18 August 2007:
How true. Just look at that thirteen-colony creation of the Crown, whose rich slave & land-owning aristocrats became famous for a daring tax evasion caper; Das eingebildete Imperium to whose troubles the Chronicles web site is dedicated.
Hah, indeed.
11 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 18 August 2007:
Under the risk of straying from the topic – I have to add a few more OTAN-esque escapades. This entire charade about Kosovo is completely created and granted life as the worlds worst Frankenstein ever. If the Serbian Kosovo region remains in Serbian hands – NATO must have been wrong to have engaged in a military action (to avert a human catastrophe/genocide). Since no genocide was ever proved (at least not before NATO engaged, they had to “carry-on” – if nothing else, then to save face. Therefore the Serbian Kosovo becomes an artificially inflated point of contention whereby the military aggression of NATO will be justified should this abortion result with yet another abortion (granting the Albanian terrorists Serbian lands). Since when is it that two wrongs make a right? Should, on the other hand, the Serbian side prevail and retain its ancestral lands – NATO will have to eat a humble pie, pay astronomical reparations, be held liable for genocide committed by the Albanian terrorists against the Serbian minority in Kosovo.
Somebody mentioned earlier (here or elsewhere) that “the market was flooded with all sorts of Frankensteins” – Fulgencio Batista (supported by one strong side in the United States – Fidel by another strong fraction; creation of Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein, and many other convenient dictators, where NATO main role is to be a billy-club in the hands of a one-eyed Cyclopes, and we all know what happened to Cyclopes.
Yes, I am of Serbian birth, but I try my damnedest not to be influenced by my heritage or other bias (and I have a vast selection of bias) since I hold myself to be a citizen of the world (temporarily residing in the United States, while I am inside of this earthly body). I hold strong conservative beliefs rooted in Christian thought, and in spite of being Serbian Eastern Orthodox, I have a great deal of appreciation for Ignacio López de Loyola, St. Augustine, St. Francis of Assisi, as much as I admire Lord Byron, Alfred Lord Tennyson, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Sir Isaac Newton, John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Gabriel Garcia Marques, Edmond Rostand, Christopher Marlowe, Miguel de Cervantes y Saavedra, Aristotle, Gaius Marcus Aurelius, Justinian, Constantine the Great, Garcia Lorca, Berthold Brecht, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, etc. etc., since I have left a lot of space for “the firsts among equals”
12 Comment by Philip Candido on 18 August 2007:
fidel by another strong fraction; creation of Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein, and many other convenient dictators,
Actually, Saddam was put in place by the Soviets, but came into the American circle when it was expedient so that we could arm him against Iran.
Speaking of which, and to tie this back into the topic
the elites over here are now hoping for war in Iran, because they didn’t take into account that a Shiite Iraq would be allied with Shiite Iran and likewise send their oil east rather than west. Now Kosovo independence is slipping out of their grasp, which was also to bring an oil pipeline from the Caspian sea into Serbia, which is why we hear the tough talk against Russia every turn of the corner, because from the elite’s standpoint they are only making the situation worse.
13 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 18 August 2007:
Yet again, with one eye on the topic and the other on digressions, I wanted to share the following with this forum:
During the NATO aggression (that’s exactly what it was – a pure simple, unadulterated, crystal clear, overt aggression). I was flying throughout South and North America and would use my laptop from various hotels, airports and other public places. Around 11PM Belgrade time would commonly be 5PM to 7PM in the Americas. On various Serbian chat-rooms (on the Internet) there would be a good number of Slovenians, Austrians, Germans and others. I can’t describe what feelings overflowed my tear glands when I saw the frenetic typing
“Koper here: They took a Southern route – two fighters just flew over, hide, hide, hide;
Ljubljana here: they took a central route 1 bomber 4 fighters, hide, hide, hide;
Maribor speaking: They took a northern route too, 6 fighters hide, hide, hide.
So much for today’s NATO and EU members who took Serbian side in this David and Goliath replay. Most of those kids who stayed up late at night to alert their Serbian brothers were keen and fast enough to take every step available (no matter how silly or naïve it looked). That’s my recollection of the shameful NATO aggression. Bottom line is that there are so many decent genuine people no matter what side of the NATO curtain they are on. I did retain little faith in humanity and Chrstian values based on the above.
14 Comment by S. on 18 August 2007:
Excellent obsevation, Dr. Trifkovic.
…”The fundamental issue on which the proponents of multilateralism in international relations such as Canada fail to respond to the Russian and Serbian argument is how do you envisage the survival of an international system in which a sovereign nation state, a bona fide member of the international community, can have a part of its sovereign territory take away from it by fiat, by an imposed decision of the rest of the world. ”
It is said that the US and other western countries have spent billions of dollars on building NATOstan in Kosovo-Metohija? Where was the money used for? Certainly not to improve wellness of people in Kosovo-Metohija! They did not use the money to rebuild infrastructure, or to improve the security there. 16.000 NATO /UNMIK soldier proved incapable of maintaining law and order in Kosovo-Metohija, size of land equivalent to the wider Toronto area. Nothing short of personal accountability for crimes committed during NATO occupation of Kosovo-Metohija will teach western politicians that bombing an independent country for the sake of it (or for the sake of NATO) is a criminal act!
15 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 18 August 2007:
Meanwhile, back at the ranch (and on topic): it has been a standard practice for the winners to grab the soil of the vanquished.
First set of foreign soil assigned to the victors comprise of the following: Bosnia annexed by the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Austria annexed by Nazi Germany, Alsace Lorraine annexed by France, not a single bullet fired in all of the above.
So we look at the Serbian Kosovo charade, not a single bullet fired (into the Arnaut criminals) seems to leaning towards Albania. Again we arrive at step one: who gets what lands?
Established criminality of Kosovar (and import) Albanins has been at the forefront of NATO’s “humanitarian” charade. Nevermind that the fuse is sparkling with fire while moving fast towards the tinder box. So our grand children will have to answer for our shortsightedness. Oh, well, who knows how long the Social Security will stay afloat? So what’s the big deal giving some alien lands to some usurpers? Not a big whoop. As long as we (the victors) are holding the only pencils – we can rewrite the history as often as we please. Justice? Balance of powers?
Energy sources? Who cares. Melting of the Polar caps? Who owns any of that ice. The Ruskies? Oh, just a little headache, we’ll deal with it using our NATO allies (like Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Estonia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, etc.
This “radical” mode of thinking can be obtained simply on account of Noah Webster’s dictionary: in the following manner. The etymology of the word ARNAUT, is defined (1992 and before editions only) as a noun of Turkish origin meaning a servant, a stable boy, horse cleaner, typically an inhabitant of the mountainous regions of present day Albania. After 1995 this word gets to perform a disappearing act from many dictionaries (American Heritage Dictionary took it off its roster of winners at about 1996, Noah Webster followed suit about 1999. Too bad that I own a 1979 edition of Unabridged Noah Webster’s dictionary, where nobody will ever wrestle page 103 to 120 out of my hands.
16 Comment by Johan Dieckmann on 18 August 2007:
(Re. #13)
“That’s my recollection of the shameful NATO aggression.”
Here is another recollection.
During that same 1999 bombing, the Serbian air defenses succeeded in shooting down a U.S. “stealth” fighter F-117A.
This was widely celebrated in Serbia with the slogan:
“Sorry, we didn’t know it was invisible”
=================
P.S.
The downed plane on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK2ei5-FHxk&mode=related&search=
“… Only one F-117A Nighthawk has been shot down in combat and that was by the Serbian/Yugoslav forces. On March 27, 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under command of colonel Zoltán Dani, equipped with a 1960’s vintage Soviet SA-3 Goa missile system, downed the F-117A with a Neva missile. According to Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defences tracked F-117 with old Russian radars operating on long wavelengths… the Pentagon had convinced the American public that the F-117 was “invisible” to radar. Evidently, Pentagon forgot to mention that to Yugoslav SAM operators. …”
17 Comment by Albiqete on 19 August 2007:
All of you Serbs born with a dysfunctional brain
18 Comment by Alban Ziguri on 19 August 2007:
I have no time to respond tonight. For lack of time, I am just quoting I.P. as saying
“in spite of being Serbian Eastern Orthodox, I have a great deal of appreciation for Ignacio López de Loyola, St. Augustine, St. Francis of Assisi, as much as I admire Lord Byron, Alfred Lord Tennyson, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Sir Isaac Newton, John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Gabriel Garcia Marques, Edmond Rostand, Christopher Marlowe, Miguel de Cervantes y Saavedra, Aristotle, Gaius Marcus Aurelius, Justinian, Constantine the Great, Garcia Lorca, Berthold Brecht, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, etc. etc.
My question to him: Have you read them all?
If yes, you would write differently.
Judging by the way you write and the opinions you express, you must have copied their names from some Encyclopedia only.
19 Comment by EMete on 19 August 2007:
I.P. (Iliya Pavlovic) writes: “If the Serbian Kosovo region remains in Serbian hands – NATO must have been wrong to have engaged in a military action (to avert a human catastrophe/genocide). Since no genocide was ever proved (at least not before NATO engaged, they had to “carry-on” – if nothing else, then to save face. ”
To disprove him, just search the following link on the Web and you’ll find out the truth at least before NATO engaged.
http://www.alb-net.com/warcrimes-img/warcrimes.htm
20 Comment by Albiqete on 19 August 2007:
ALBAN ZIGURI YOU HIT THE NAIL ON TEH HEAD
bRAVO
21 Comment by Albiqete on 19 August 2007:
IT IS FUNNY THOUGH THAT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO POST A COMMENT IN THE ARTICLE OF Aleksev
“UNILATERAL RECOGNITION OF KOSOVO……”
However, I will have this for Ilea Vladimir Ilic Lenin
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/p/plato/p71mx/menexenus.html
22 Comment by Philip Candido on 19 August 2007:
All of you Serbs born with a dysfunctional brain
Wow, such intellectual debate. What about us Italians?
23 Comment by Johan Dieckmann on 19 August 2007:
(Re. #23)
“… ‘All of you Serbs born with a dysfunctional brain’ …
Wow, such intellectual debate. …”
24 Comment by Albiqete on 19 August 2007:
You cannot debate with liars
You think that you are intellectuals when you lie with a straight face having no shame
Debate has rules and it is not a metamorphous place. It should include
Respect for someone else’s opinion
Facts that support arguments
Well……….. why I’m continuing to lose my time …………….
Just read
“UNDER THE HOLY LIME TREE”
By Dr. Sabrina P. Ramet
She gives you a very good answer. She makes very clear what you people really are
25 Comment by Albiqete on 19 August 2007:
Philip Candido
First, if you were an italian I never met an real Italian that called himself Philip
All of ones that I met call themselves Filippo/e so you are not candid either
Perche lei sta scrivento in inglese e non in italiano? Lei si puo scrivere in italianoa e noi possiamo avere un discorsso sincero senca bugie.
26 Comment by Johan Dieckmann on 20 August 2007:
“… All of you Serbs born with a dysfunctional brain …”
“… SOCRATES …”
27 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 20 August 2007:
Dieckmann, be careful, you might be “demoted” to a Serbian.
28 Comment by Philip Candido on 20 August 2007:
First, if you were an italian I never met an real Italian that called himself Philip
All of ones that I met call themselves Filippo/e so you are not candid either
Perche lei sta scrivento in inglese e non in italiano? Lei si puo scrivere in italianoa e noi possiamo avere un discorsso sincero senca bugie.
Semplicemente, perche io sono Italiano e Americano. Quando io scrivo in Italiano, mi chiamo Filippo, pero in inglese, Philip, come un uomo normale qui abita un’altra nazione.
In secundo luogo, tuo Italianio assomigliare a viene di “google traduttore”.
Infine, se io non sono Italiano, allora, mio passaporto Italiano é spaglio. Adesso, che cosa desidera discutere? Serbia? Albania?
29 Comment by Boba on 21 August 2007:
BACK TO THE TOPIC:
Not once in their quest to grab Serbian province of Kosovo-Metohija, have Albanians and their American/European masters mentioned the fact that LAW MUST be respected. So, they want to have a LAWLESS country of KosovA. What a promising goal!
30 Comment by Iliya Pavlovich on 21 August 2007:
Concept of LAW has never been a popular topic among Albanians. I have documented amply their dominance among the world’s most wanted persons (Italy, Austria, Sweden, France, Greece, Serbia, U.K.) easily confirmed on any Interpol site. In spite of many of the Albanian criminals having Serbian passports their names are indicative enough as there is no Serbian family with a member of Fatmir Abdou, Leku Limaj, Rexcep Amedoux, etc. etc.
31 Comment by Albiqete on 21 August 2007:
As for the Albanian IQ you so called “intellectuals” live in an isolated world, you do not know a jack. In US universities where are Albanians are students they are in the range of five – ten % of the top students
Here is one of them
http://www.albmath.org/users/shaska/
32 Comment by Srdja Trifkovic on 22 August 2007:
HEAR YE, HEAR YE!
Talkback provides a forum for informed and respectful debate, for witty and intelligent commentary. Posts that neither enlighten nor amuse will be deleted.
33 Comment by EMete on 22 August 2007:
To I.P., aka. or alias Iliya Pavlovich,
In this post, I want to say a few words about the phrase “all of you Serbs born with a dysfunctional brain”. It sounds like a characterization made of the Serbs by some scholar in the Middle Ages and Albiqete just copied it. I was also going to say “some ancient scholar” instead but refrained from using that phrase because there were no Serbs in the Balkans until the seventh century A.D. Nobody knew that the Serbs existed somewhere, far away, in the Baikal Lake area in Asia.
I do not agree with Albiqete on his phrase about Serbs’ “dysfunctional brain”. Proceeding only from what I.P. or some others like him write, Albiqete can not lump all Serbs together. All Serbs are not born with “a dysfunctional brain”. I would rather say that the Serbs, not all the Serbs, of course, have fallen victim to brainwashing by their leaders ever since the inception of the state of Serbia and all what the Serbs, that is, Serb intellectuals, politicians, etc. say, which is part and parcel of this process of indoctrination, sounds abnormal to a normal person.
After the creation of the Serb state, the ruling classes have been indoctrinating the ordinary Serbs with ultra nationalism, racism and hate for other nations and religions. Hence, I.P.’s racism and warmongering. I do not think that I.P. was born with “a dysfunctional brain” either because his way of reasoning tells us that he suffers from shortsightedness or an indoctrinated mind. The very fact that he is able to twist history to serve his theses does not prove that he has “a dysfunctional brain”. I am strongly opposed to this assumption.
For instance, he intentionally forgets that the Serbs came to the Balkans as mercenaries of the Byzantine Emperor in the 7th century A.D. to shed the blood of the restive local populations. In fact, this is what Serbs have been doing since they set foot on Balkan soil and I.P. “forgets” this eloquent fact. Even recently, they started four wars in the Balkans, and having massacred hundreds of thousands of people, lost them and now are trying to get away with it. If given a free hand, they will for sure do it again. Everybody knows that this kind of behavior is called recidivism.
This is what they started to do in Kosova (see: http://www.alb-net.com/warcrimes-img/warcrimes.htm). During the Kosova conflict and war, they killed more than 10 thousand innocent Albanian civilians and forced from their homes about one million Kosova Albanians. If it had not been for the NATO air war against Serbia, Milosevic would have achieved his goal: hundreds of thousands of Albanians would have been killed, the Kosova refugees in Albania, Macedonia and other countries would have never returned to their homes and more Serbs would have started to settle in Kosova to populate it by setting up Serb settlements on the Israeli kibutz model. This is called chauvinism pure and simple, a malady I.P. suffers from.
Furthermore, the brainwashed Serbs have been fighting not only against the non Slavs. They have shed the blood of other Slavs too, namely, the Slovenes, the Croats and the Muslims of Bosnia who originally are Serbs and Croats. This is called fratricide, which I.P. overlooks.
Another example: I.P. says that all Arnauts [Albanians – “Arnaut” derives from the name of the ancient Albanian tribe of Arvan, Arban: hence Arbenia, Arberia (the country of the Arbers, the Albanians), Arvanites (Greek), Arnauts (Turkish), Arberesh (Italy)] should go back to Turkey where they came from. This is a distortion of history, which cannot be done by somebody “with a dysfunctional brain”. As is known, Albanians in the Balkans today are Muslims, Catholics and Othodox and that the Muslim religion was introduced into the Balkans along with the invasion of the Ottomans. Recorded history indicates that Christianity came to the Illyrian (Albanian) territories in the first century A.D and that most of the Albanians became Christians in that century, whereas the Serbs converted from Paganism to Christianity 6 or 7 centuries later.
I.P. says that the Albanians (Arnauts) came to the Balkans together with the Ottomans and, as already said, they should go back to Turkey. Let’s assume that this untruth is “true”. Then, how come that in Albania there are three religions: Muslim, Catholic and Othodox? Did the Ottomans brought Christians to Albania? Of course, not. Did the Albanian Muslims converted to Christianity? Of course, not. The opposite occurred. Part of the Albanian Christians, who the Ottomans found in Albania, converted to Islam. Albanians, who were mostly Christians since the first century A.D., converted to Islam the same as the Serbs did after Ottoman occupation.
I.P. also “forgets” to tell us the big difference between Albanian Christians’ attitude to their fellow Albanians who converted to Islam and the Orthodox Serbs’ attitude to their fellow Serb Muslims. While Albanians have always distinguished themselves for religious tolerance, the Orthodox Serbs have always stood out for religious intolerance. The Orthodox Serbs exterminated all their Serb brothers who had converted to Islam. What can you call this if not fratricide?
I.P and his likes should know that everybody is entitled to adhere to any religion. Belief is an individual matter and nobody should meddle with this right of the human beings. Albanians have applied this right long ago, many centuries before this Right was enshrined in international documents and national legislation, a fact that speaks of their emancipation and not of religious bigotry that still plagues many near and distant nations in the world. I.P. does not know this fact that does honor to the Albanians or if he is aware of it, he does not tell it to this website’s readers.
As already said, since the Serbs came to the Balkans as mercenaries from Siberia, the Baikal Lake area, and this is recorded history and nobody questions this historical fact, why doesn’t I.P. call on his fellow Serbs to return to their origin? Failure to call on them to go back where they came from, that is, to Asia, does not speak of “a dysfunctional mind”.
Since I.P. urges everybody to identify him/herself when posting comments, we can well ask him a simple question: Why are you interested in the identity of the people who post comments on this website? You must be a very inquisitive person. Aren’t you interested in their opinions and ideas?
Another question: Why are you insisting that those who disagree with you, should write directly to your e-mail address? I think you do not want their ideas to be accessible to other readers. This is called truthphobia.
How come that I.P. (Iliya Pavlovich’s) posts, replete with ethnic slurs that neither enlighten nor amuse, are not deleted?
34 Comment by Philip Candido on 22 August 2007:
I.P. says that the Albanians (Arnauts) came to the Balkans together with the Ottomans and, as already said, they should go back to Turkey. Let’s assume that this untruth is “true”. Then, how come that in Albania there are three religions: Muslim, Catholic and Othodox? Did the Ottomans brought Christians to Albania? Of course, not. Did the Albanian Muslims converted to Christianity? Of course, not. The opposite occurred. Part of the Albanian Christians, who the Ottomans found in Albania, converted to Islam. Albanians, who were mostly Christians since the first century A.D., converted to Islam the same as the Serbs did after Ottoman occupation.
Simply stated this is a non-sequitur, regardless of one’s political views. That there are Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims in Albania could scarcely discount the fact the Albanians migrated to Serbia under Ottoman rule. Could it not also be that there were Catholics and Orthodox living in the region since before the Turks left Mongolia, and that Muslim Albanians converted to Christianity with the waning of Ottoman rule and the strength of Christian rule? Furthermore, could it not also be that Christians living in Albania were slaves taken by the Turks from Serbia and sold in Albania? There are nearly 500 years of Turkish enslavement to account for, and all of these are more than possible.
As already said, since the Serbs came to the Balkans as mercenaries from Siberia, the Baikal Lake area, and this is recorded history and nobody questions this historical fact, why doesn’t I.P. call on his fellow Serbs to return to their origin? Failure to call on them to go back where they came from, that is, to Asia, does not speak of “a dysfunctional mind”.
I can’t speak for I.P., but it would seem to me that he was referring to the origins of what makes Serbs who they are, which is not only their racial origin, but the land that has made their culture, which is both Serbia and the black bird field (Kosovo). At moments in jest, I joke about restoring the Eastern Roman Empire, but in reality, the Turks have lived in Anatolia for over 600 years and what makes Turks who they are is not only their language and cultural unity, but also the land they live in. I couldn’t seriously maintain that they return to their mudhole in Mongolia, or that the Arabs should leave Iraq, Syria, Egypt and North Africa and give these regions back to the original inhabitants, greeks, mesoptomaians (if any can be found) and copts and the like, but if you are going to suggest that is how Serbs go back to their origins, well what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Make Istanbul Constantinople again. Otherwise I would leave that point.
35 Comment by Albiqete on 22 August 2007:
JUST A CLARIFICATION
TO ANYBODY
I SAID TO ALL OF YOU Serbs = these in this forum
NOT TO ALL THE Serbs excluding Serdja
IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO OF THEM
AS FOR THE PHASE
EMETE
I COME UP WITH MY OWN PHRASES. Thank you
To get all the sense of what I was responding to you had to read SOME theirs MY COMMENTS and my responses which WERE DELETED AND YOU DON’T WANT TO KNOW WHAT I WAS CALLED JUST FIND OUT ABOUT
The word UNTERMENSCH
BY THE WAY I WAS ACCUSED also which is a cheap shot THAT I DO NOT SPEAK ITALIAN
IT IS unbelievable TO THEM THAT MOST OF ALBANIANS SPEAK AT LEAST THREE LANGUAGES
MY SELF I WAS RAISED KNOWING SINCE EARLY CHILDHOOD TWO LANGUAGES other than ALBANIAN. One of them Italian.
36 Comment by EMete on 23 August 2007:
What Albiqete says about most of the Albanians speaking at least three languages is very true. My daugter, for example, came to the Unied States at 12 years of age. At that early age, she knew Albanian, Italian and English. Here in the USA, she learned Spanish. Isn’t this an accomplishment?
37 Comment by EMete on 23 August 2007:
Philip Candido says:
“Simply stated this is a non-sequitur, regardless of one’s political views. That there are Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims in Albania could scarcely discount the fact the Albanians migrated to Serbia under Ottoman rule. Could it not also be that there were Catholics and Orthodox living in the region since before the Turks left Mongolia, and that Muslim Albanians converted to Christianity with the waning of Ottoman rule and the strength of Christian rule?”
Suffice it to refer to one fact only: Before the Ottomans invaded Albania and Kosova, the Albanians fought against their incursions under George Castriot Scanderbeg for 25 years on end. The people he led against the Ottomans were all Albanian Christians (Catholic and Orthodox). And this fact is found in the then literature on the Albanians’ fight against the invaders. Only after he passed away in 1468, the Ottomans overran the Albanian territories and the process of Islamization started. As an Italian you claim you are, you should know or if not, you should read to learn to know Scanderbeg’s life and his war against the Ottomans, his relationship with the Vatican and Venice and the efforts of these two Christian power centers to help a Christian people cope with the Ottoman Turks. To learn whether Scanderbeg fought leading Christians against the neighbors of the Baikal Lake Serbs, at least read: Skanderbeg (Wikipedia). There you will learn that the Pope gave him the title Athleta Christi (Champion of Christ). Why? To find out, read and then tell me the ‘why’.
38 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 24 August 2007:
36 Emate
If you are Serbian Albanian from the Serbian province of Kosovo-Matohija, then you surely must know Serbian language as well. Did you not teach your daughter Serbian language? Or, was it not necessary given that the Serbian authorities were generous enough not to impose the official Serbian language on Albanians???
39 Comment by EMete on 24 August 2007:
A foreign language is a means of struggle in one’s life. The more foreign languages you know the better you are prepared to face the vicissitudes of life.
I am sorry I do not know the Serbian language. Nor does my daughter. It is not because I hate your language. I did not have an opportunity to learn it. The little Russian I know would have helped me learn it faster.
I do not hate either the Serb people or their language. Had I known your language, I would have answered you in your mother tongue and you would understand me better. What I hate is the policy pursued by a corrupt ruling class, which has created irreparable divisions between Albanians and Serbs.
If you are from Kosova I assume you may know Albanian. I think there must be Serbs, especially Kosova Serbs, who speak Albanian. Some time ago, I listened to an interview on the Albanian TopChannel by Oliver Ivanovic, leader of the Serbs in northern Mitrovica. His Albanian was fluent. You could have taken him very easily for a Kosova Albanian. In fact, he looked and sounded like an Albanian. This brings me to the question. “Looking and sounding like an Albanian”, did this fact made him more Albanian and less Serb? No way. In fact, his Albanian was the means he used to explain his views more clearly to the TV viewers. He could have also used his mother tongue but I don’t think it would have been so helpful through a translation.
I call on the Serbs to learn Albanian, an ancient language of an ancient people in the Balkans. Otherwise, they will never understand their aspirations and sincere willingness to co-exist in peace with the Kosova Serbs and be good neighbors of Serbia.
40 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 26 August 2007:
39EMete
You should use your influence and call on Albanians who live in the Serbian province of Kosovo-Metohija to learn Serbian. That way they’ll understand that the law of the Republic of Serbia, the country they live in, must be respected if they want to remain in Kosovo-Metohija.
41 Comment by EMete on 27 August 2007:
You Serbs have never known how to treat the Albanians of Kosova or, I would better say, you did know how, but that was mistreatment, brutality, massacre, deportation, jails. Only a 15 year period following Tito’s 1974 Constitution can be considered kind of exception. If Milosevic had not cancelled the rights Albanians enjoyed, the situation would have been different in Kosova today. May be, things would not have gone as far as they have at present.
One hundred years’ suppression by Serbs made the Albanians consider the Serbs oppressors and invaders. Hence, everything that came from Serbia was considered evil and they had enough reason to believe so. Why would they learn Serbian? To enjoy the history books, whose content was anti-Albanian, to watch the Serbian movies that distorted history and listen to the Serbian songs that extolled the Serbian myths, the Serbian untruths?
Tolerance wins the hearts of the people. Intolerance and denial, racial and religious, estrange them and hardens their hearts.
Serbs have never tried to win the hearts of the Albanians, instead, they coveted their land. When they speak of Kosova, they never mention the people who live there. They refer to it as a geographical area where there is only wealth to grab.
To be able to describe what the Kosova Albanians feel about the Serbs, one had to live there before the year 1999. I am not one of them. I am sure, you would do it better provided you take off your anti-Albanian spectacles.
42 Comment by Boba Borojevic on 27 August 2007:
EMete you are hopelessly ignorant !