Comments on: The Business of Souls: When Experts Attack, Part II http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/ Your home for traditional conservatism. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 19:05:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Evangelism the old-fashioned way « Leitourgeia kai Qurbana: Contra den Zeitgeist http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-89466 Evangelism the old-fashioned way « Leitourgeia kai Qurbana: Contra den Zeitgeist Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:27:21 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=105#comment-89466 [...] Evangelism the old-fashioned way Published 13 February 2008 Academia , College , General , music Tags: academic conferences, antarctica, byzantine chant, evangelism, herding cats, holy week music, missions, orthodox outreach, sacred music, st. patrick, Western saints As long as we’re talking about Western saints, here’s this item from Aaron D. Wolf (what a great name) by way of Ben at the Wittenberg Trail (to whom I’d love to link, but I can’t, because the Wittenberg Trail is evidently a private forum) by way of Alden Swan: Here’s what I can’t figure out: How in the world did Saint Patrick evangelize all of those Druid priests and clan chieftains without a mission statement? After all, history and tradition tell us that he walked around preaching and performed an occasional miracle. But how did he know what his mission was? Aaron D. Wolf, The Mission of Souls: When Experts Attack [...] [...] Evangelism the old-fashioned way Published 13 February 2008 Academia , College , General , music Tags: academic conferences, antarctica, byzantine chant, evangelism, herding cats, holy week music, missions, orthodox outreach, sacred music, st. patrick, Western saints As long as we’re talking about Western saints, here’s this item from Aaron D. Wolf (what a great name) by way of Ben at the Wittenberg Trail (to whom I’d love to link, but I can’t, because the Wittenberg Trail is evidently a private forum) by way of Alden Swan: Here’s what I can’t figure out: How in the world did Saint Patrick evangelize all of those Druid priests and clan chieftains without a mission statement? After all, history and tradition tell us that he walked around preaching and performed an occasional miracle. But how did he know what his mission was? Aaron D. Wolf, The Mission of Souls: When Experts Attack [...]

]]> By: Red Phillips http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1577 Red Phillips Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:53:39 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=105#comment-1577 Oops... above should be role not roll. Oops... above should be role not roll.

]]> By: Red Phillips http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1571 Red Phillips Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:05:42 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=105#comment-1571 We are having a good discussion at Conservative Times on what roll evengelicals will play in any alternative rightist movement. http://conservativetimes.org/?p=735#comments Come join us if this topic interests you. We are having a good discussion at Conservative Times on what roll evengelicals will play in any alternative rightist movement.

http://conservativetimes.org/?p=735#comments

Come join us if this topic interests you.

]]> By: Conservative Heritage Times » Brilliant Essay on the Church Growth Movement http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1566 Conservative Heritage Times » Brilliant Essay on the Church Growth Movement Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:05:36 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=105#comment-1566 [...] This is a brilliant essay on the church growth movement. I am posting a link because this is related to the topic we are discussing here. Essentially the topic is what are conservatives to do with the evangelicals. [...] [...] This is a brilliant essay on the church growth movement. I am posting a link because this is related to the topic we are discussing here. Essentially the topic is what are conservatives to do with the evangelicals. [...]

]]> By: Greg Taylor http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1428 Greg Taylor Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:25:00 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=105#comment-1428 One must be careful not to be too critical of the "seeker friendly" approach. It is true there is a certain Gresham's law of contemporary protestanism. The lowest common denominator of cheap grace drives out the sterner (higher?) expression of faith. There are many reasons for this, including the nearly impenetrable ignorance of contemporary Americans as to the history of the church and her doctrines (protestant, Catholic or Orthodox). The experential perogative of the Baby Boom generation ran headlong into the plastic orthodoxy of their parents generation and produced some mighty strange results - including a neo-pentacostalism that embraces the dispensationalist viewpoint of older fundamentalism. Why do I say don't be too critical? It goes back to something C.S. Lewis said about spilled religion - though his remark was about the effect of Romanticism on the imagination - we can hope that many will press on beyond the pablum, feel-goodism, and American exceptioanlism to embrace a sterner faith, one that more closely imitates Christ. It is easy to throw brick-bats at the foolishness of contemporary mega-churches, but the alternatives for many were the even less Christ-like nostrums of the mainline denominations, lost in trying to be socially relevant and progressively liberal. One must be careful not to be too critical of the "seeker friendly" approach. It is true there is a certain Gresham's law of contemporary protestanism. The lowest common denominator of cheap grace drives out the sterner (higher?) expression of faith. There are many reasons for this, including the nearly impenetrable ignorance of contemporary Americans as to the history of the church and her doctrines (protestant, Catholic or Orthodox). The experential perogative of the Baby Boom generation ran headlong into the plastic orthodoxy of their parents generation and produced some mighty strange results - including a neo-pentacostalism that embraces the dispensationalist viewpoint of older fundamentalism.

Why do I say don't be too critical? It goes back to something C.S. Lewis said about spilled religion - though his remark was about the effect of Romanticism on the imagination - we can hope that many will press on beyond the pablum, feel-goodism, and American exceptioanlism to embrace a sterner faith, one that more closely imitates Christ. It is easy to throw brick-bats at the foolishness of contemporary mega-churches, but the alternatives for many were the even less Christ-like nostrums of the mainline denominations, lost in trying to be socially relevant and progressively liberal.

]]> By: Red Phillips http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1372 Red Phillips Tue, 05 Jun 2007 15:05:12 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=105#comment-1372 </i>“We are in an increasingly fragmented and lonely world,” he told the rabbis, because “Americans have taken individualism to such an excess.” A successful, growing “ministry” will not attract and keep new people through gimmicks: The real attraction is a “sense of community”—the opportunity to be not just a believer but a “belonger.” He is right about this. And I have no problem with the church serving to provide a sense of community. Better someone feels a sense of community because of the church they go to, than to their online gaming community or what not. And the more often they are at church, the better when it comes to behavior. But the problem with this is that the local church and the community used to be intimately related. In the not too distant past, people by and large attended the local community church of their denomination. Now people drive across town to go to church. Some of this is out of theological necessity as many of the mainline denominations have drifted. But some is because people are shopping for the right church that "meets their needs" the same way they shop for a pair of shoes. So there is no obligation to the local community church, even while the church is providing a sense of community. “We are in an increasingly fragmented and lonely world,” he told the rabbis, because “Americans have taken individualism to such an excess.” A successful, growing “ministry” will not attract and keep new people through gimmicks: The real attraction is a “sense of community”—the opportunity to be not just a believer but a “belonger.”

He is right about this. And I have no problem with the church serving to provide a sense of community. Better someone feels a sense of community because of the church they go to, than to their online gaming community or what not. And the more often they are at church, the better when it comes to behavior.

But the problem with this is that the local church and the community used to be intimately related. In the not too distant past, people by and large attended the local community church of their denomination. Now people drive across town to go to church. Some of this is out of theological necessity as many of the mainline denominations have drifted. But some is because people are shopping for the right church that "meets their needs" the same way they shop for a pair of shoes. So there is no obligation to the local community church, even while the church is providing a sense of community.

]]> By: Red Phillips http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/06/04/the-business-of-souls-when-experts-attack-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1306 Red Phillips Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:28:16 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=105#comment-1306 Great article. Here is part of the problem as I see it. Conservative Christians who resist the Church Growth mentality, primarily certain Fundamentalist, Reformed types and old school High Churchers of various denominations recognize all to well this below. (I would include Mr. Wolf in the later and myself in the former with some modifications.) <i>"What is left of public Christian morality is quickly vanishing; divorce is universally accepted; contraception, abortion, and sodomy are rights by default; and those who argue against them are immediately branded as sinister “phobes” of some sort who wish to impose their own morality on, and enslave, others."</i> But they do not recognize how that is inseparable from this. <i>"The past century has witnessed the complete transformation of Western society: the destruction of communities, cities, farms and the small towns they supported, small businesses, jobs in general, the social order, etc."</i> That should be one of the chief projects of conservative paleo Christians of whatever variety. If you will forgive me, that should be our "mission." Connecting those two things in people's mind. Great article. Here is part of the problem as I see it. Conservative Christians who resist the Church Growth mentality, primarily certain Fundamentalist, Reformed types and old school High Churchers of various denominations recognize all to well this below. (I would include Mr. Wolf in the later and myself in the former with some modifications.)

"What is left of public Christian morality is quickly vanishing; divorce is universally accepted; contraception, abortion, and sodomy are rights by default; and those who argue against them are immediately branded as sinister “phobes” of some sort who wish to impose their own morality on, and enslave, others."

But they do not recognize how that is inseparable from this.

"The past century has witnessed the complete transformation of Western society: the destruction of communities, cities, farms and the small towns they supported, small businesses, jobs in general, the social order, etc."

That should be one of the chief projects of conservative paleo Christians of whatever variety. If you will forgive me, that should be our "mission." Connecting those two things in people's mind.

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