Comments on: Descent of Man, Ascent of Apes? http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/ Your home for traditional conservatism. Wed, 23 May 2012 16:15:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Anonymous http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-56378 Anonymous Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:28:11 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-56378 <strong>cinnamonbunz pics...</strong> In spite of called Naudia Nyce Bianca Pureheart! Actual talked cinnamonbunz pics appears just. ... cinnamonbunz pics...

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]]> By: Jonathan Gress http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-11338 Jonathan Gress Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:09:48 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-11338 I was disappointed by the cheap shot at the author's use of commas. Firstly, you're speaking more of orthographic convention than of language; remember, we all learn language orally, not graphically. Orthographic conventions may or may not have anything to do with the natural syntax of the language. In the case of the comma, the orthographic error on the part of the Wade shows that he is probably merely being influenced by his native syntax. Although you haven't given the context, the phrase 'but is not possessed' certainly has a subject, only it is a subject which is not overtly expressed, namely the subject of the preceding clause with which this one is conjoined. This is a common phenomenon of discourse called 'ellipsis'; you will almost certainly have come across the term in your classical studies. It serves to eliminate redundant information, and is allowable in languages which permit covert subjects. Were I to represent the syntax of the clause using the standard tree representation, there would be an empty subject 'node' before the verb. Clearly Wade unconsciously used punctuation to reflect the underlying, rather than the surface syntax. As to your cheap shots at Chomsky, all I can say is: Chomsky is only revered among generativists, and by no means are all linguists generativists, although non-generativists usually respect him. But even among generativists, there is certainly widespread debate about some of his ideas, for example over his most recent theoretical contribution of 'minimalist' syntax (already over a decade old), which many generativists have not accepted. Chomsky himself was famously sceptical of the ability of Darwinism to account for the evolution of language. If you want a more informed opinion of the current state of 'evolutionary linguistics', see the work of e.g. Terence Deacon. Naturally, what he says is controversial, like everything else in this debate. Most linguists as you noted are not involved in it, preferring to stick with areas where real empirical advances are possible. Please explain in what way generative transformational grammar has undermined the teaching of English. I'm all ears. In fact, professional linguists interested in language pedagogy try in vain to get professional language teachers to head their call for the formal study of grammar as a part of foreign language learning for adults. Currently, the vogue in adult foreign language teaching is to avoid formal grammar, on the incorrect belief that adults learn languages the same way as children. A child does not need you to tell her what the dative case is, but an adult does, if he speaks English and is trying to learn Russian. And what is the difference in meaning between 'I like him playing the violin' and 'I like his playing the violin'? Many linguists will be dying to know. I was disappointed by the cheap shot at the author's use of commas. Firstly, you're speaking more of orthographic convention than of language; remember, we all learn language orally, not graphically. Orthographic conventions may or may not have anything to do with the natural syntax of the language. In the case of the comma, the orthographic error on the part of the Wade shows that he is probably merely being influenced by his native syntax. Although you haven't given the context, the phrase 'but is not possessed' certainly has a subject, only it is a subject which is not overtly expressed, namely the subject of the preceding clause with which this one is conjoined. This is a common phenomenon of discourse called 'ellipsis'; you will almost certainly have come across the term in your classical studies. It serves to eliminate redundant information, and is allowable in languages which permit covert subjects. Were I to represent the syntax of the clause using the standard tree representation, there would be an empty subject 'node' before the verb. Clearly Wade unconsciously used punctuation to reflect the underlying, rather than the surface syntax.
As to your cheap shots at Chomsky, all I can say is: Chomsky is only revered among generativists, and by no means are all linguists generativists, although non-generativists usually respect him. But even among generativists, there is certainly widespread debate about some of his ideas, for example over his most recent theoretical contribution of 'minimalist' syntax (already over a decade old), which many generativists have not accepted.
Chomsky himself was famously sceptical of the ability of Darwinism to account for the evolution of language. If you want a more informed opinion of the current state of 'evolutionary linguistics', see the work of e.g. Terence Deacon. Naturally, what he says is controversial, like everything else in this debate. Most linguists as you noted are not involved in it, preferring to stick with areas where real empirical advances are possible.
Please explain in what way generative transformational grammar has undermined the teaching of English. I'm all ears.
In fact, professional linguists interested in language pedagogy try in vain to get professional language teachers to head their call for the formal study of grammar as a part of foreign language learning for adults. Currently, the vogue in adult foreign language teaching is to avoid formal grammar, on the incorrect belief that adults learn languages the same way as children. A child does not need you to tell her what the dative case is, but an adult does, if he speaks English and is trying to learn Russian.
And what is the difference in meaning between 'I like him playing the violin' and 'I like his playing the violin'? Many linguists will be dying to know.

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1581 TJF Thu, 07 Jun 2007 16:33:04 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1581 My dear baron, The misquotation was interesting in itself and momentarily confused me because Milton, in PL, does not usually have lines with feminine endings. It is good to quote verse without checking--Plato is filled with mistakes which indicate how much poetry he remembered--and, when mistakes are made, the quality of the mistake reveals the writer's level of competence in versification. There is no good notation for English in common use. The macra/brevial system, technically, represents quantity, and, while quantity matters in poets like Dryden, Milton, Keats, Tennyson, it is a question of nuance and feeling, not a systematic pattern. The dumbest article on meter I have read was written by a fine scholar, Martin West, who imagined there could be 7 leves of stress in Greek verse, despite the fact that all verse and most art can be reduced to an ideal pattern of strong and weak. No matter how an artist may tune up or down individual instances, the theoretical pattern--if it is truly a rhythm--is basically an on/off switch. One could do the same thing with loud/soft, bright/dark, and, naturally, the pattern does not have to alternate strong weak. More complex ratios are common, though not, alas, in English, where we tied ourself so firmly to iambic verse that most experiments in other meters, even in trochaic, seem merely eccentric. The exceptions--including Tennyson's Maude, Browning's trochaic "Tocata etc." with one of the stresses typically weakened to resemble the ionicus a minore (uu--, cf, Marvell's great octosyllabic line "to a green though in a green shade"), and Hopkins' misguided archaism--are wonderful. My dear baron,

The misquotation was interesting in itself and momentarily confused me because Milton, in PL, does not usually have lines with feminine endings. It is good to quote verse without checking--Plato is filled with mistakes which indicate how much poetry he remembered--and, when mistakes are made, the quality of the mistake reveals the writer's level of competence in versification.

There is no good notation for English in common use. The macra/brevial system, technically, represents quantity, and, while quantity matters in poets like Dryden, Milton, Keats, Tennyson, it is a question of nuance and feeling, not a systematic pattern. The dumbest article on meter I have read was written by a fine scholar, Martin West, who imagined there could be 7 leves of stress in Greek verse, despite the fact that all verse and most art can be reduced to an ideal pattern of strong and weak. No matter how an artist may tune up or down individual instances, the theoretical pattern--if it is truly a rhythm--is basically an on/off switch. One could do the same thing with loud/soft, bright/dark, and, naturally, the pattern does not have to alternate strong weak. More complex ratios are common, though not, alas, in English, where we tied ourself so firmly to iambic verse that most experiments in other meters, even in trochaic, seem merely eccentric. The exceptions--including Tennyson's Maude, Browning's trochaic "Tocata etc." with one of the stresses typically weakened to resemble the ionicus a minore (uu--, cf, Marvell's great octosyllabic line "to a green though in a green shade"), and Hopkins' misguided archaism--are wonderful.

]]> By: Friedrich Freiherr von Hardenberg http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1568 Friedrich Freiherr von Hardenberg Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:19:25 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1568 I thank Dr. Fleming for his correcting my quotation from Milton, and for his correcting my notation for qualitative and quantitative stress. My relying on my very faulty memory was wrong. I thank Dr. Fleming for his correcting my quotation from Milton, and for his correcting my notation for qualitative and quantitative stress. My relying on my very faulty memory was wrong.

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1565 TJF Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:58:05 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1565 Another PS. One of the problems with 20th century linguistic theories is that they abandon traditional language and terms of analysis. For the Chomskyans, the distinction between participles and gerunds is not meaningful, but to an educated speaker of English (one trained on Latin as nearly all good writers have been), the old categories were not merely terms of art and analysis, they described what we were taught to believe were real things. Thus, while FvH's observations on the difficulties of an expression like "I like him playing" are quite true, the mere fact that such a sentence is possible shows that there is a structural category of that type available to us. It is not at all clear that we would have trouble with, "I heard him entering the room," though it is true we would not typicall say, " I heard his entering," because we would prefer the simple noun "entry." On the other hand, "I heard him singing" is clearly perceived by educated speakers to be both correct and distinct from "I heard his singing." It would have been quite possible for Chomsky to have worked within the constraints of traditional grammar while producing his own theoretical take, but in changing the terms of analysis he and his followers also seriously damaged the language. I am going, probably tomorrow, to do two very short descriptions of the next two chapters and post them as a new entry. This way it will allow you all, many of whom know more of this than I do, to exercise your eloquence and ingenuity. Another PS. One of the problems with 20th century linguistic theories is that they abandon traditional language and terms of analysis. For the Chomskyans, the distinction between participles and gerunds is not meaningful, but to an educated speaker of English (one trained on Latin as nearly all good writers have been), the old categories were not merely terms of art and analysis, they described what we were taught to believe were real things. Thus, while FvH's observations on the difficulties of an expression like "I like him playing" are quite true, the mere fact that such a sentence is possible shows that there is a structural category of that type available to us. It is not at all clear that we would have trouble with, "I heard him entering the room," though it is true we would not typicall say, " I heard his entering," because we would prefer the simple noun "entry." On the other hand, "I heard him singing" is clearly perceived by educated speakers to be both correct and distinct from "I heard his singing."

It would have been quite possible for Chomsky to have worked within the constraints of traditional grammar while producing his own theoretical take, but in changing the terms of analysis he and his followers also seriously damaged the language.

I am going, probably tomorrow, to do two very short descriptions of the next two chapters and post them as a new entry. This way it will allow you all, many of whom know more of this than I do, to exercise your eloquence and ingenuity.

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1496 TJF Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:05:34 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1496 PS The rhetorical structure in the quotation from PL VII certainly suggests an absolute construction. Metrical analysis requires the two full lines: Attendant on thir Lord: Heav'n op'nd wide Her ever during Gates, Harmonious sound On golden Hinges moving, to let forth- The three lines in question if analyzed in terms of stress pattern are simply: x/x/x/x/x/ x/x/x/x/x/ x/x/x/x/x/ But in terms of quantity, something more like u-u-----u- u-u-u-u--- u-u---uuu- I have a font that can do a better job... PS The rhetorical structure in the quotation from PL VII certainly suggests an absolute construction. Metrical analysis requires the two full lines:

Attendant on thir Lord: Heav'n op'nd wide
Her ever during Gates, Harmonious sound
On golden Hinges moving, to let forth-

The three lines in question if analyzed in terms of stress pattern are simply:

x/x/x/x/x/
x/x/x/x/x/
x/x/x/x/x/

But in terms of quantity, something more like

u-u-----u-
u-u-u-u---
u-u---uuu-

I have a font that can do a better job...

]]> By: TJF http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1491 TJF Wed, 06 Jun 2007 19:19:07 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1491 Perhaps for others but not for me. I've only just glanced at it but I think I'll have to print it out, so bad have my eyes become. If you are interested in these things, I'll be happy to send you my most recent pedantic piece on the origin of the rhetorical/metrical term period. How many years have the terms period and colon floated through my nightmares! Although only an amateur (quite literally) in English studies, I am going through both Dryden and Milton looking at rhythmical and structural echoes of Latin and Greek. I used to know something about this, though I have forgotten most of what I knew when I taught a course on classical backgrounds to English literature at Chapel Hill. One major difference between Vergil and Milton is that, although Vergil is certainly capable of writing long, even periodic sentences as at the beginning of the Aeneid (echoed obviously by Milton at the beginning of PL), he is often quite terse. What are the lines we remember? Sunt lacrimae rerum, mentem mortalia tangunt. As Anthony Camps, from whom I once took an Aeneid course, pointed out both in his lectures and in his nice little book aimed at students, Vergil often achieves his most powerful effects through fairly brief sentences and tiny words--res, mens--and note the graphic simplicity of tangunt, touch. He might have said overwhelm, seize, thrill, set aflutter, etc, but he preferred the simplest word. Now, Milton is not incapable of a pithy phrase, but it is not his strongest suit. I'll get back to you on your metrical analysis. The rhythms, by the way, are very similar to what you might find in Aeschylus: iamb + cretic (or a syncopated iambic dimeter), choriamb+iamb, etc. This is how I spend my early mornings, alas, doing the next-to-last round of revisions on the old dissertation. Perhaps for others but not for me. I've only just glanced at it but I think I'll have to print it out, so bad have my eyes become. If you are interested in these things, I'll be happy to send you my most recent pedantic piece on the origin of the rhetorical/metrical term period. How many years have the terms period and colon floated through my nightmares!

Although only an amateur (quite literally) in English studies, I am going through both Dryden and Milton looking at rhythmical and structural echoes of Latin and Greek. I used to know something about this, though I have forgotten most of what I knew when I taught a course on classical backgrounds to English literature at Chapel Hill.

One major difference between Vergil and Milton is that, although Vergil is certainly capable of writing long, even periodic sentences as at the beginning of the Aeneid (echoed obviously by Milton at the beginning of PL), he is often quite terse. What are the lines we remember? Sunt lacrimae rerum, mentem mortalia tangunt. As Anthony Camps, from whom I once took an Aeneid course, pointed out both in his lectures and in his nice little book aimed at students, Vergil often achieves his most powerful effects through fairly brief sentences and tiny words--res, mens--and note the graphic simplicity of tangunt, touch. He might have said overwhelm, seize, thrill, set aflutter, etc, but he preferred the simplest word. Now, Milton is not incapable of a pithy phrase, but it is not his strongest suit.

I'll get back to you on your metrical analysis. The rhythms, by the way, are very similar to what you might find in Aeschylus: iamb + cretic (or a syncopated iambic dimeter), choriamb+iamb, etc. This is how I spend my early mornings, alas, doing the next-to-last round of revisions on the old dissertation.

]]> By: Friedrich von Hardenberg http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1483 Friedrich von Hardenberg Wed, 06 Jun 2007 17:43:10 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1483 Was my posting, to follow #86, too off-topic? Was my posting, to follow #86, too off-topic?

]]> By: Friedrich von Hardenberg http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1478 Friedrich von Hardenberg Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:53:56 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1478 <i>and</i> when in haste I confuse "to" and "too" too. and when in haste I confuse "to" and "too" too.

]]> By: Friedrich von Hardenberg http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/2007/05/30/descent-of-man-ascent-of-apes/comment-page-2/#comment-1477 Friedrich von Hardenberg Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:52:13 +0000 http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=98#comment-1477 </i> I'm not to good with the close italics marking either. Sorry. I'm not to good with the close italics marking either. Sorry.

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